Author Topic: Why was it decided that exhausted characters cannot use non-exhaust abilities  (Read 1520 times)

Offline grahaminator

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Many players don't even know this, but a character ability that doesn't have exhausting it as part of the cost can be played even if the card is exhausted. There's two problems with this: first, many players naturally assume if a card is red it can't be used, second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.
We've decided to add another rule to Infinity Wars: if a character (or other permanent) is exhausted, its abilities cannot be used. This does act as a bit of nerf to some cards (Secluded Researcher, Aleta the Immortal Caretaker, and Shire of Victory come to mind immediately), but we think it's for the good of the game overall.

I have also noticed this affects locations as well. The first turn a character or location comes in they cannot use any colon activated abilities that do not require exhausting. This really limits player options on and can be game deciding especially when you are trying to recover from an incoming assault. You are really limiting the usefulness and potential of new cards by having this rule. All paid colon abilities naturally having haste isn't an issue and is actually intuitive coming from other card games since most have that. It encourages more engaging play and can actually speed things up. Comparing it to MtG the current setup is like having an ability on all cards with activated abilities and locations that says the card enters play tapped or that it needs a charge counter gained in the upkeep to activate for the turn.

Offline flipsyalec

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Many players don't even know this, but a character ability that doesn't have exhausting it as part of the cost can be played even if the card is exhausted. There's two problems with this: first, many players naturally assume if a card is red it can't be used, second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.
We've decided to add another rule to Infinity Wars: if a character (or other permanent) is exhausted, its abilities cannot be used. This does act as a bit of nerf to some cards (Secluded Researcher, Aleta the Immortal Caretaker, and Shire of Victory come to mind immediately), but we think it's for the good of the game overall.

I have also noticed this affects locations as well. The first turn a character or location comes in they cannot use any colon activated abilities that do not require exhausting. This really limits player options on and can be game deciding especially when you are trying to recover from an incoming assault. You are really limiting the usefulness and potential of new cards by having this rule. All paid colon abilities naturally having haste isn't an issue and is actually intuitive coming from other card games since most have that. It encourages more engaging play and can actually speed things up. Comparing it to MtG the current setup is like having an ability on all cards with activated abilities and locations that says the card enters play tapped or that it needs a charge counter gained in the upkeep to activate for the turn.

Yes, it does make some cards worse. But like it was mentioned in your quote, it's for the good of the game overall. Activated abilities are usually created such that your opponent knows it's coming, but it's still a good ability. It's when they don't know it's coming that they're too good. Future cards will have more freedom to have more awesome abilities with this new rule in mind.

Offline grahaminator

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I'm not drinking the kool-aid in regards to this. I look at it the other way. Not knowing its coming is part of the game in card games, you have to not only plan on what you opponent has out but what they can possibly do given their available resources per turn. You have to plan for Mass Death, why not for a character or location based ability? I don't see why characters / locations enter play exhausted, going into play in the support zone (and being stuck there for a turn) is good enough for characters. If it would make a specific activated ability too good then it would be an exhaust ability and the character could have an ability "Comes into play exhausted" or a keyword for that.

Offline Third

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Or we could run it like now and hand out haste to the cards that needs it

Offline grahaminator

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Or we could run it like now and hand out haste to the cards that needs it
That wont happen though as described by the haste change, it will be very specific. I am talking about all characters with activated abilities vs just a few specific ones. I'd say the current implementation needless buffs 1 time spells and removal. Think of potential abilities that could be used from the support zone provided that your character/location did not come into play exhausted:

0, Sacrifice this card: deal 2 damage to target character

or

1: deal 1 damage to target character
Ability may only be used once per game.

or

3: target character gets -1/-1 until end of turn
Ability may only be used once per turn (this could also just be worded like the below example)

or

2, Exhaust: give target character +1/+1

or

4: give target character Flying until end of turn

or
Location
4: place the first character in opponent's attack zone in their user's support zone

In all of those examples with the current way you would have to wait until they have been in play one turn and would weaken their abilities so much and limit your strategic decisions. If they were able to activate when they came into play you could have more freedom on your turn and use those characters in place (or in conjunction) with 1 times spells that did something similar.

If an ability is too strong to be used the turn it comes into play make the card come into play exhausted or an exhaust ability if it is decided that that would not be usable the turn it comes into play.

Offline Mugen Musou

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Yes, it does make some cards worse. But like it was mentioned in your quote, it's for the good of the game overall. Activated abilities are usually created such that your opponent knows it's coming, but it's still a good ability. It's when they don't know it's coming that they're too good. Future cards will have more freedom to have more awesome abilities with this new rule in mind.

I believe flipsyalec is in the QA tester group, so I take the statement as essential confirmation of the upcoming card supporting what you are suggesting.

I do agree that it would be nice to have some characters/location have abilities that can be triggered at the turn that is deployed.  We can achieve this in 2 ways:

1. Make all characters/locations do that and ones which cannot have a specific text stating, this abilility cannot be used at the turn this character is deployed. OR
2. Make all characters/location cannot use their abilities when exhausted.  Then ones it can have  special text/keyword such as "Flash/Steadfast" or whatever the word suites.

The way currently implemented and how flipsyalec says above, my guess is we are taking #2 route. 

Offline Valorite

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Whilst you are looking at exhausted, could you please make it obvious when enemy characters are exhausted? This would enhance the experience of using FD Exhaust and of playing against Slow characters.

Offline Zinqf

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This is why MtG implemented a summoning sickness mechanic. A mechanic that only affects character attacking. Of course IW would be different and need different coding to work out.
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Many players don't even know this, but a character ability that doesn't have exhausting it as part of the cost can be played even if the card is exhausted. There's two problems with this: first, many players naturally assume if a card is red it can't be used,
This would be like MtG players not knowing they can use an ability that doesn't require tapping when the card is tapped.
Quote
second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.
Like when a player casts Martyr Golem?
Like when a player casts any spell that resolves on the same turn?
Like when the board is wiped on the same turn by calamity or mass death?
Like when counter and reactive mechanics are added to the game in new sets?
Like when Sages are played and use their abilities but not when the Sage Spells are played same turn?

You are supposed to react to and plan around things that happen same turn. Unless you are saying that activated abilities of characters that come into play are just too powerful versus spells that hit in the same way. If you need to use bluffing and foresight to react to these spells, why not the abilities of characters?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 06:32:55 PM by Zinqf »
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Offline Teremus

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second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.

That's the point of the game. If you aren't able to predict your opponent's position properly in a high-stakes match, then you're likely going to lose.

Implementing cards that do not come into play exhausted but can't move out to the battlefield would be quite tricky, but perhaps the next set will afford us something.
No seriously, I really like cheese.

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Offline grahaminator

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second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.

That's the point of the game. If you aren't able to predict your opponent's position properly in a high-stakes match, then you're likely going to lose.

That's contradictory. By keeping the ability as is vs changing it to how I suggested you aren't rewarding someone from predicting their opponents moves because of how non hasted (or charge/vigalance) characters comes into play. You are dumbing down the game by forcing players to wait an additional turn to use their character's activated abilities. Much potential strategy is being lost.

You could also expand it to allowing for comes into play abilities to immediately go off and not wait for priority. That would make them function like a pseudo-spell card that is created when you play the character. You could show this by flashing the character card on screen for the player/opponent when they played it during the turn to show its ability happening.

For instance:
player 1 with priority plays Winds of War
player 2 plays Firebolt, Cartographer, & Candit
player 1 has priority so his Winds of War kills his opponents new characters that were played
player 2 shows his "spells" go off in the order they were played Firebolt, Cartographer, & Candit

Offline flipsyalec

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second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.

That's the point of the game. If you aren't able to predict your opponent's position properly in a high-stakes match, then you're likely going to lose.

Implementing cards that do not come into play exhausted but can't move out to the battlefield would be quite tricky, but perhaps the next set will afford us something.

I believe ability cards and enter triggers should work exactly that way. Doing things that your opponent has to predict. In the case of activated abilities of locations or characters, they're often built with repetitive use in mind. Because they're built this way, they're good when your opponent sees that you have the ability. They're made better when your opponent can't see it. Take secluded constructor for example. If my opponent calamities when it's late game, say, i have 12 resource. With that resource, i can haste in an agent coyle, play a secluded constructor, and play an unstable bad bot, and then SC can boost coyle to attack for 27 damage.
If my opponent doesn't wrath an empty board, they can't stop it.

Changing abilities without exhaust i think is a good thing overall. I need to have part of my play out for a turn, giving my opponent one turn of warning, but also giving me the ability to bluff my move. I would also think it's weird that flame dawn footman has to wait a turn before he does stuff, yet secluded constructor can start supporting straight away. Is SC more hasty than FD footman?

Offline Koey

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second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.

That's the point of the game. If you aren't able to predict your opponent's position properly in a high-stakes match, then you're likely going to lose.

Implementing cards that do not come into play exhausted but can't move out to the battlefield would be quite tricky, but perhaps the next set will afford us something.

My favorite is when keeping an SC in your hand. Then use it with Firestarter for over 20 points of damage if you can sacrifice more than 3 artificial characters.

Offline Zinqf

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Glad that everyone is passively replying to Reply #7.
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second, it leads to situations where a character comes in and starts using their ability without the other player being able to react or plan around it at all.

That's the point of the game. If you aren't able to predict your opponent's position properly in a high-stakes match, then you're likely going to lose.

Implementing cards that do not come into play exhausted but can't move out to the battlefield would be quite tricky, but perhaps the next set will afford us something.

My favorite is when keeping an SC in your hand. Then use it with Firestarter for over 20 points of damage if you can sacrifice more than 3 artificial characters.
Yes, things like that are good combos. The problem is when this situation is used to justify "Blanket exhaustion when comes into play". In other words, this is fine to make the case for SC coming into play with ability exhaustion (kinda like coming into play tapped)...but why should things like the sages come into play with ability exhaustion when there are far more inexpensive ways to fire off their spells that have the same effect on the same turn they are cast? No need for many other cards to come into play exhausted either. Like Shrine of Victory or Pyr.

Anything that devs would specifically want to prevent casting on the turn it comes out should simply have "This card cannot use abilities the turn it comes into play" attached to the card text. Then have exhaustion kept the way it is.

There ARE ways to show newbies that exhaustion doesn't necessarily mean that you can't use abilities. And then things that you don't want to have abilities be used on would have the "No attack" graphic AND "This card cannot use abilities the turn it comes into play" on it. Could even add a graphic for ability exhaustion even... (Obviously you would change what the "No Attack" graphic would look like but you get my point)

« Last Edit: May 04, 2013, 01:11:00 PM by Zinqf »
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Offline Koey

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Basically I think what they are trying to do is make a simplified rule since the game already has a lot of you learn the trick when you encounter it moments.

- Like a lot of people did not know Aleta's Tinkerer ability can be used on the turn a Drone that was just deployed.
- Come into play creatures can be killed.

Further more as the cards expand the list of creatures you have to keep track that can throw unexpected abilities would increase.
I mean remembering spells is already a huge list, then you add a set of characters that have abilities that can activate on their turn.
In a sense I see them using this as a way of restricting the list of cards to remember my opponent can throw at once.