Author Topic: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]  (Read 668 times)

Offline Weak_Wolf

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My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« on: April 21, 2017, 10:09:50 PM »
I want to start this post by saying this: MerlinX you will get your damn money so please let me do this.  :'(

This is a tough game to play because what it is and what it could be are so drastically different that it pains me to play sometimes. Do not get me wrong it is fun, but it could be so much more. Now if you have followed any of my other threads my passion for this game does not need to be restated, at the end of the day I did what I could. But looking over my last posts maybe the problem was that I was not clear enough, I did not articulate my points well enough, or maybe I was just speaking to the wrong people (LM as oppose to the new Yodo). So let this be my last horrah, with this post I will state every major problem (to my knowledge) that this game has, then I will give a possible solution to the problem. Granted my solution may not be the best thing, but if you agree with me that there is a possible problem or at the very least a minor issue, feel free to give your own possible solution. "Give all the solutions you want and let Yodo sort it out."

Now if you know me you know that I am notorious for writing obscenely long threads, and with this being my last thread it would be a shame if I did not continue this trend in a spectacular fashion. So be prepared to read, be prepared to listen, and most importantly be prepared to think.


Chapter 1: Why Cant I Use Some Cards

This was actually an issue that I had addressed in the past and Yodo heard my cries and did something about it... My only problem is that they could have done so much more.

With the Legendary Changes different Legendaries that were never played were given "Quality of Life" updates to make them playable. Granted some of these changes were minor, like Princess Henekri going from a [5] Cost to a [4] Cost, while some of them were major, like Fire Starter Immolating when deployed. Irregardless all of these changes were a step in the right direction, and it addressed the fact that some of the cards in this game are never used because they are just so bad.

And when I say bad I do not merely mean that are not that cost effective, but when I say bad I mean that playing them could essentially lose you the game. Let me give you an example. "Blood Bath" is the posterchild of a card that is just bad on all levels. Being that I have written on this before I will just qoute what I said in my previous thread.


Blood Bath

I saved the best for last... and by best I do mean WORST. Let me tell you how bad this card is... I have been playing this game (granted it has been off and on) for the better part of 4 years!!!! And I have YET!! TO SEE THIS CARD PLAYED!!!

This card is like Hilderic, but 1000 TIMES WORST. Lets look at what it does.

1) Moves all your characters to the assault zone and your enemies to their defense zone
2) Gives your characters 2 attacks

Moves all your characters to the assault zone...

This is HORRIBLE... Why? Well because as a flame dawn most of your cards are going to have Charge. So you dont really get the benefit of the quasi haste you get from having your characters moved to your assault zone. Furthermore, with Bloodbath being an 8 Cost, you probably didnt play anything else that turn anyways... but your opponent did! And because Bloodbath moves his characters to his defense zone he has now gained a quasi-vigilance, THAT YOU PAID FOR!!

Gives your characters 2 attacks

Flame Dawn Characters have notoriously low health. This means they are going to die after attacking anything just one time. Any card that does not will be so expensive that you wont have a full board, therefore you will get more use out of just using swift strikes!

So to re-itterate. If you have a FULL board, you will most likely have small characters with low health, and so they will all die after 1 attack and will never get a chance to attack a second time: And if you have characters with decent health 10+, you more than likely do not have a full board, and therefore you will get more benefit out of swift strikes.

This card is so nice (Or should I say bad) that it literally fails twice. Both of its effects are useless at best and at worst can actually hurt you.


And here is a response from Number11 regarding my post.


I once ran 1 Hilderic in a FD deck and he won me one game where I would have definitely have lost without him. That however does not change the fact that he needs a buff. He is borderline unplayable. Even in the deck I had I would definitely not consider more than 1 copy of him at most. And I would just overcharge him if he was not needed.


The issue is getting out of hand! I believe this happens because an error in design. They give a faction a card that is not suppose to be used for that faction, but rather is supposed to be used for a different faction... Atleast that is the only way I can rationalize it. Doing this pushes the mentality that deck's are suppose to be composed of multiple different factions with different possible variations, but that kind of mentality is inherently flawed. Instead each faction is suppose to stay true to itself and its own play style, and players are suppose to intermingle those play-style to create new and ingenious strategies. And in my honest opinion, a faction should never have a card that would never be played in a single purity deck. To put it bluntly, if a certain card would ONLY WORK when used along with a different faction, then the card is inherently ill-designed. (Excepting of course hybrid cards)

But I wont result to giving generalized statements to get my point across. Let me give you some irrefutable proof by naming a few more counter intuitive cards. Now since I only play FD/Sleeper/Exile decks I will do my best to stick with what I know to be certain and only talk about those cards, that way I do not say something I am not sure about. But if something stands out from a different faction I will mention it.

Lastly, I wish LM/YODO had some kind of system where they could track games. Like everytime a 2 players enter into a game their deck list is uploaded to the server. A program then counts which cards are in their deck and how many copies of it are in the deck. That way LM/YODO would have a statistic on just which cards are used ALOT and which ones are NEVER used. Something like this would be a huge step in the right direction.

EXILES

Agent Coyle: Superior Symbiote

This card is so bad that it borders on being useless. It rarely ever see's any play outside of the one combo that it is actually good for being. (AC: Superior Symbiote  + The Last Sleeper) which would give you a 16/16 for [4]. And even that combo is lack luster for a few reasons:

1) The key behind the combo is timing because if you wait too long you will get your 16/16 at around Turn 6. And while that is not bad, it could be a lot better, especially considering that you have spent 2 Command Zone Slots and [4] Resources just for a 16/16. Assuming you get it on Turn 6 let us look at your alternatives.


The Lost Knight (Played from hand) [6] for 15/15

Hungry Abomination (In Command) [6] for X/X (With one discard this is easily above 16/16)

As you can see you have alot of different alternatives that give you the same stats if not more at around the same time. The only edge with the combo is that you are paying 4 resources spread out over 2 turns. (2 If you use Nyrsugh, but then that is 3 Command Zone slots for 1 Combo)

I will let you be the judge of just how good this combo is. But just keep in mind that outside this combo there is nothing you can really do with AC: Superior Symbiote because if you are trying to ressurect ANYTHING that has [4] or more cost you are better off just using Raise Dead, Awaken, or Undeath Wish. And anything that is cost effective at [3] cost would likely no longer be cost effective at [5] cost.


Defiant Trickster

So to put it simply, Exile's only have 1 card that overcharges. (They have the lost knight but it only lets you overcharge FD cards.) Said overcharge card is Adaptive Ritualist and that is only used when you need something that is in your graveyard.

So essentially you have a card that is going to sit in your hand, along with another card that will sit in your hand, UNTIL there is a card in your graveyard that you want back so badly that you are willing to pay an additional 3 resources just to get it back... Long story short, as niche as Adaptive Ritualist is it makes even less sense to give yourself another dead draw.

Overcharge makes sense for some factions, like Genesis that have a lot of useful overcharges. But not for the Exile who only have 1 overcharge which isn't really that useful.


Grimmish The Persuader

Just read the card description.


Wheezer, Demon of Smog

What were they even thinking when they made this card. A [3] Cost card with the stats of a [1] Cost card that has an effective that will be almost impossible to coordinate and isnt even all that effective. Until said niche situation arises it will just be a dead draw in your hand.

Dont get me wrong the once in a million opportunity will arise when your play Wheezer when your opponent uses Descension. Instead of Wheezer why not just run 3 Demonize for the same occasion? The ONLY situation Wheezer is useful with, is a situation that could be better handle by a different card that is far more flexible.

And personally I have never seen this card play. Ever.


Dehumanize

Once upon a time this card at least made sense. Back when Exile's were playing around Devil of Despair and a well timed Dehumanize would essentially win you the game. But in the modern meta this strategy has been killed by power creep. There are so many better and more consistent play styles that the Exiles can use that the Devil + Dehumanize combo is only played by nostalgic players looking to have some lulz. Not to mention that as soon as someone see's a Devil of Despair you have telegraphed the Dehumanize and they will attempt to dodge around Turns 5-6.

And once again as a Kill Card there are so many better options. Demonize, Called Shot, Splat, etc... This card is never played and for very good reason.


Scramble

My criticism of this card is very similar to what I said for Dehumanize. This card was built around the Devil of Despair combo, but even then it was a brain dead combo that was lack luster at best. It is best done away with, this card and animations should be recycled.


Final Thoughts on Exile

Dont get me wrong there are a bunch of cards that really need "Quality of Life Tweaks". Like:

Alpha Demon should be a [3] Cost with lowered stats. (8/8)
Demon Borne should be a [1] Cost (and made Unique If necessary for balance.)
Hell's Gambler should not lose stats on failed flip, but should only gain +2/2 or +1/1 on a win.
Chaos in the Ranks should be a [4] cost.
Decent Into Madness should be +5/5 for a [3] Cost
Chalice of Madness being [6] Cost when it should really be a [4] Cost.
Volatile Genome changed to [4] Cost for 4 Damage and should have the bug fixed.


These are just a few Quality Of Life changes that I think need to be made to make to make Exiles game play a bit fluid and less clunky. Furthermore the bulk of the changes are being made to cards with 2 Purity so there is no need to really worry about any major imbalance issues.


Sleepers of Avarrach
[/size]

The Sleepers were a bit better and didnt really find alot of cards that were so underpowered or counter intuitive that they could not be used. But Some of the recommended changes like AC:Zomborg, Aleta and Nightmare should really be considered as they would breathe some life back into Sleeper decks.

Acid Rain

This is a card that I have only seen used on a handful of occasions, and I am pretty sure that was only by a player who had not yet found out just how unusable it is. Sure it is good for clearing ramps like Wealthy Noble and Bring Life by Passing, but at that point why not just use a Firebolt.

Lastly if your opponent has alot of characters you are far better off trying to use a Winds of War, atleast that way they all die this turn. As oppose to Acid Rain which will give them a very lingering death which will take place over the course of multiple turn. Think about it this way, Acid Rain kills characters so slowly that by the time they die your opponent has already gotten pretty good use out of them.


Final Thoughts on Exile

AC: Zomborg should be made a 1 Cost Character, with Stats adjusted accordingly
Aleta Immortal Sufferer should be changed to " Exhuast character for 2 turns, instead of removing a card in your graveyard from the game."
Re-Occuring Nightmare should be a [3] Cost and a [2] Purity card.
Undisturbed Necropolis should have its cost changed to [5] and its purity changed to 2.


Flame Dawn
[/size]

Hilderic, The Toe of the Flame Dawn

I go into this in my last thread and like Number11 stated, this card is very underwhelming and niche. His high costs almost has an Aberion affect where he comes into the game after you have already lost.

If his cost was reduced to [10] he would immediantly become playable. To compensate his stats should be reduced to 10/10 and his affect changed to +3 instead of +5.

Blood Bath

Just read what I had quoted above; This card is terrible in every conceivable way and needs to be changed.

I would recommend reducing its Cost to [4] if it is going to remain as it is, so far as giving your enemy vigilance, and changing its Cost to [6] if the part about giving our enemy vigilance is removed.


Final Thoughts

Aberion, Hammer of the Dawn the change from [8] to [7] was good, but it really needs to be [6]
Frontline Warrior remove deployed requirement, reduce health to 5.
Herald of the Dawn, descrption changed to "Selected Character gains Immolate:2 this turn"
Mark 1: Brimstone should have its active ability cost reduced to [3] for 6 Damage
Pyr should have its cost reduced to [3]
Brimestone should have its cost reduced to [2]
Tactical Retreat should have its cost redcued to [1] and effect reduced to +2




This thread is roughly 8 hours in the making and I am pretty tired. I dont even know if I can post all of this in one post and if not I will finish it in the comments. There is so much more I want to touch on but just go read my older posts for that. Once again it is fun to dream but the fact of the matter is that this game probably wont get alot better. I think the Legendary changes, even though it was warm welcomed and did alot for the game, will not be followed up on.


Offline Weak_Wolf

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 10:10:07 PM »

Chapter 2: It's all about Timing

This section can be split into 2 separate sections that both cover the same topic. Which is Timing!


How the Cards Got Their Cost: Round 2

This is something I have said time and time again but: A card that would be PERFECT! at Turn 3 may be HORRIBLE on Turn 7. Aberion and Hilderic are shining examples of this fact. Pricing a Card too high may defeat the entire purpose of the card, but there is something else that should be factored in when deciding what a card should cost.

Reasonable Alternatives

What does this mean? Well it is something I pulled out early when I was talking about the AC: Superior Symbiote Combo when compared to Hungry Abomination and Lost Knight, and even when I compared Dehumanize to Demonize. The idea is quite simple:

You only have a certain amount of resources in the game. If you have both Demonize and Dehumanize in your hands, 9 times out of 10 you will end up playing Demonize. As time goes on it becomes redundant to carry both cards in your deck, and because of this Dehumanize will get phased out. Not because Dehumanize is a horrible card, although I would argue that it is, but because you simply have better alternatives.

And because of this cards should be created with that in mind. For instance, should the vast majority of Exile cards really be [3] cost? If one of the cards were changing slightly and had their cost increased to [4] or decreased to [3] would they have more meaning or impact on the game than they had before when they were essentially phased out by better alternatives.

Sleepers are another great example of this. The VAST majority of Sleeper cards are [2] Cost. Now you have good sleeper cards, like Inevitable Dead and Bloodthirst, and then you have the "Wishful Thinking: Set it then Forget it" [2] Cost cards like AC: Zomborg and Sleeper of Avarrach. Now it is quite apparant that if given the option between a good [2] Drop and a [2] that requires you to do a few hail mary's when you play it, 90% of the time a reasonable person would pick the good one.

Now Sleeper of Avarrach is saved by cards like Bury and other cool combo's that let you send him to the grave. But Zomborg is not so lucky, and like I said in my last post I do not even run him in ANY of my decks anymore.

If his cost was changed, increased or decreased, and his stats/affect were adjusted to account for this change, then he would likely become a meaningful card that now gives players a bit more options as to how they want to play, as oppose to being a card that doesn't get any play outside of niche decks built for the lulz.

Now the next section is so important and detailed that I will give it its own Chapter!

 
Chapter 3: Never a Dull Moment

It has always seemed counter intuitive to me that a fast paced game built around simultaneous turns would be so slow paced. Outside of Flame Dawn I feel like my first few turns mainly consist of me waiting to have a chance to make a meaningful decision around Turns 3-4. And then after that I either did something useful or screwed up and spend the next few turns trying to turn things around.

I have always felt that this game should essentially have 3 stages.

Early Game (Turns 1-3) - Where players are either bring aggressive or making a few development decisions, ergo setting the landscape for aggression later on in the game.

Mid Game (Turns 4-9) - Where players strategies start taking form.

Late Game (10 And beyond) - This is where players strategies have been used and were countered, or are still developing. This is always when you start seeing game endings cards like Titans, Dragons and Martyrs being played.

The only problem is that as of right now there is no early game. Apart from the Flame Dawn and the occasional Logarythmatron there are no meaningful decisions to be made during the early game. This is an important problem because it creates a clunky dynamic where you do nothing of importance turns 1-3, then Turns 4-7 you are making life changing decisions, and Turns 7 and beyond you have to deal with those consequences.

In fact for me the bulk of my games can basically be decided by what happened on Turns 4-6. Now my first thought was, REDUCE EVERYTHINGS COST BY [2] AND THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED. But I have a better idea. Why not implement cards which I call "Preparation Cards" which allow players to lay the groundwork for the mid-late game. Below I will give you some examples that I can up with, I only play FD, Sleeper and Exile so the examples I give for those will be the most thought out, but just consider it.

While I will only mention a few of them it would be a requirement for atleast 3 of these cards to be implemented for each faction for this to work.

FYI ALL "Preparation Cards will be Unique" and Rare or Epic. THEY WILL ALSO ALL BE 2 PURITY


Warpath

Heart of the Planet [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While deployed, Every time you gain an additional Resource this card gains a charge. Sacrifice this card to give a character +X/X where X = the number of charges this card has.

Call of the Wild [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

While deployed, Every time you play a character for 3 or more resources gain a charge. Sacrifice and play a card using charges instead of resources where the cost of the card is its original cost +1.

Lonku, The Gardener/ Lonku, The Green Father [Unique] [1 Cost] [2/6]


While deployed Lonku gains a charge every time you gain a resource, not including resources given by cards. When Lonku reaches 7 Charges he transforms into "The Green Father" gaining +10/10 and allowing you to select a location card from your deck and place it in your hand, said location cards cost is reduced to 1.


Gensesis

Unstable Anomaly [Unique] [3 Cost] (1/4)

Sacrifice - Remove a Character you control from the game, return it to play next turn.

Malich, The Tinkerers Apprentice [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

Whenever an Artificial Character dies Malich gains a charge. At 6 charges Malich leaves the game transforms into "Malichs Construct" which is a 10/10 with Sheild 1.

Mini Shield Generator [Unique] [3 Cost] (1/4)

Sacrifice - Target character gets shield 1 this turn.


Verore

IDK Verore at all, someone else may need to suggest better cards.


Flame Dawn

Roan, The Last to the Fray [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

If 7 turns pass while Roan is deployed, he gets 9/5 and gains an "Two Lives".

Mirah, The Field Medic [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

While deployed, Whenever a character you control dies Mirach gains a charge. At 6 Charges Mirach transforms into Mirach, Battle Born, gaining 7/3 and consume 2. (While the consume mechanic is Exile, it is merely here to show the fact that she is healing herself after every victory)

Glorious Propoganda [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

While Deployed, Sacrifice - Target Card gets +2/0 this turn

The Walls of Aberion (Essentially a fortress built from peices of the enemies fortress) [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/1)

While deployed, if your opponents fortress took damage this turn, this card gains +0/4. [Vigilance]

Makeshift Catapult [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While Deployed, Sacrifice - Target character gains Flying this turn; sacrifice character at the end of the turn.


Descendants of Dragons

IDK them well enough to think of any cards that would meaningful and creatively impact this faction.


Sleepers

Fleshheap [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

Remove a character in your graveyard from play, this card gains +2/2 every time a card in your graveyard is removed from the game.

Virulant Plague [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While Deployed, Sacrifice - Target card gets Infect this turn

Lurking Miasma [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

Whenever a character you control is sent from the field to the graveyard your opponent takes 2 damage. Whenever a character you control is sent from the graveyard to the battlefield your opponent takes 1 damage.

Gaze of the Horde [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While deployed, at the end of your turn if a character was moved from you or your opponents graveyard to your side of the field, your opponent takes 5 morale damage this turn.

Stichfiend [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/5)

While deployed, Gains a charge every time a character you control dies. At 7 Charges you may revive a character in your graveyard.



Exile

Mind Wreck [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While Deployed, Sacrifice - Select a card in your hand and discard it.

Rubbish Eater [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/1)

While Deployed At the end of your turn, if you discarded a card this turn,  this card gains +3/3.

Lslimikat, The Prophet [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While Deployed, At the end of your turn, if you discarded a card this turn, this card gains a charge. At 5 Charges your opponent discards 4 cards from their hand.

Yonko, Bringing of Madness [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/3)

While this card is deployed, at the end of your turn all you characters that killed a card this turn gain Consume 1: If they already have Consume they gain nothing.

Mind Leech [Unique] [1 Cost] (1/4)

While Deployed, Sacrifice - Select a zone and a character, if selected character is in selected zone, character loses -3/3.


Overseers of Solace

IDK them well enough to think of any cards that would meaningful and creatively impact this faction.


With the implementation of cards like these, low cost cards that are not extremely strong but can have a meaningful impact later on in the game; You can start to see the development of an Early Game. Now as soon as the game starts I have important choices to make.

- How many fire bolts do I run?
- Do you include some AOE board clears?
- Timed Axe will start seeing some play along with poison and some other clears.
- I also do not think this will spark a resurgence of control decks as control is still fairly unfeasible outside of certain specific decks... Looking at you mad monk.
- Do I rush him down and kill him before his cards affect takes place or should I start building a defense to counter it?


Take Turn 1 from being a side thought to being a meaningful part of the game. The same for Turn 2 as well.

Offline Weak_Wolf

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 10:11:13 PM »
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Offline Weak_Wolf

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 10:11:23 PM »
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Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 10:41:40 PM »
Now as soon as the game starts I have important choices to make.

- How many fire bolts do I run?

0

Offline Benionin

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2017, 01:54:05 AM »
If you're doing nothing in the early game, you're not playing properly. In fact, you're severely hampering your chances of success. Most every faction has things that it's doing on turn 1, be it beginning to rush, beginning to buff, etc. If you're not doing that, that's your fault, not the game's.

I'm going to come across as abrasive and grumpy, probably, but I'm somewhat tired of seeing long posts advocating ridiculous changes (the idea that collections should be limited to ten copies of any one card is so idiotic that I won't even waste the time refuting it). I'm not an expert on the game, nor do I claim to be (unlike you, even though you "aren't familiar enough" with multiple factions to come up with suggestions for them), but plenty of players more knowledgeable than I find your suggestions absurd (Key, Merlin, Socks, many many more), they just don't feel bothered to reply to you. Well, I probably shouldn't be bothered either, but I am, I'm just not bothered enough to attempt to be as polite as I usually try to be. Also, I suppose I have been grumpy lately, though not entirely because of your posts or of anything IW related.

Some cards are indeed not useful (or not as useful), though I have played every single card you've mentioned and some have repeatedly won me games--admittedly, it's been a long time since I've used Wheezer, I still hold that his effect is pretty good, it's just good at a targeted, buffing, tron-style meta which IW isn't because single expensive threats are so easy to deal with. But Bloodbath? Love the card. Could it use a buff, maybe a cost reduction? Absolutely. Do I want its effect to change? Definitely not. Scramble is legitimately useless and is one of very few cards in the game with the chance to do legitimately nothing. With Defiant Trickster you could always, oh, I dunno, splash another faction that can overcharge things. Dehumanize is still fantastic with consume and I certainly love picking it up in Draft, even if I don't necessarily run it in constructed.

If you're playing The Last Sleeper with Superior Symbiote on turn 6, you're doing it wrong. You should be playing him far sooner, and a 16/16 with infect that you can raise from the dead no matter how many times your opponent kills it for only 4 resources is a powerful and dangerous threat that is far superior to Lost Knight. The comparison is insulting.

Oh, and I'm pretty darned sure Yodomare has stats for games played, cards played, etc. In the past Teremus once mentioned which faction was played the most and they also knew how long the average game was (8 turns at the time). Additionally, Merlin knew that games where one player got a turn 1 Wealthy Noble and the other didn't, the player with the noble won 80% of the time. So YM has stats, at least to some extent.

When Yodo changed the legendaries, I'm pretty sure that it was more than just "your cries" that led them to do so. And given the quality of the changes that you've suggested since your return, I hope they don't listen to your cries.

Now as soon as the game starts I have important choices to make.

- How many fire bolts do I run?

0

Yup. Believe it or not, Firebolt's a bad card, suboptimal removal even though it is certainly playable in draft, where removal is short and people are playing suboptimally anyway, and I suppose in limited formats like IW2013-Only where you just don't have enough access to removal and have to settle for bad cards.

And before you bring it up, Heatwave sucks. The fact that it can wipe out a line of aspirants doesn't matter because Aspirants also suck and no one plays them (which, on a different note, is why Orisolve's scale of "how many aspirants does it trade with" is utterly ridiculous).
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Offline Weak_Wolf

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2017, 05:08:40 AM »
If you're doing nothing in the early game, you're not playing properly. In fact, you're severely hampering your chances of success. Most every faction has things that it's doing on turn 1, be it beginning to rush, beginning to buff, etc. If you're not doing that, that's your fault, not the game's.

I'm going to come across as abrasive and grumpy, probably, but I'm somewhat tired of seeing long posts advocating ridiculous changes (the idea that collections should be limited to ten copies of any one card is so idiotic that I won't even waste the time refuting it). I'm not an expert on the game, nor do I claim to be (unlike you, even though you "aren't familiar enough" with multiple factions to come up with suggestions for them), but plenty of players more knowledgeable than I find your suggestions absurd (Key, Merlin, Socks, many many more), they just don't feel bothered to reply to you. Well, I probably shouldn't be bothered either, but I am, I'm just not bothered enough to attempt to be as polite as I usually try to be. Also, I suppose I have been grumpy lately, though not entirely because of your posts or of anything IW related.

Some cards are indeed not useful (or not as useful), though I have played every single card you've mentioned and some have repeatedly won me games--admittedly, it's been a long time since I've used Wheezer, I still hold that his effect is pretty good, it's just good at a targeted, buffing, tron-style meta which IW isn't because single expensive threats are so easy to deal with. But Bloodbath? Love the card. Could it use a buff, maybe a cost reduction? Absolutely. Do I want its effect to change? Definitely not. Scramble is legitimately useless and is one of very few cards in the game with the chance to do legitimately nothing. With Defiant Trickster you could always, oh, I dunno, splash another faction that can overcharge things. Dehumanize is still fantastic with consume and I certainly love picking it up in Draft, even if I don't necessarily run it in constructed.

If you're playing The Last Sleeper with Superior Symbiote on turn 6, you're doing it wrong. You should be playing him far sooner, and a 16/16 with infect that you can raise from the dead no matter how many times your opponent kills it for only 4 resources is a powerful and dangerous threat that is far superior to Lost Knight. The comparison is insulting.

Oh, and I'm pretty darned sure Yodomare has stats for games played, cards played, etc. In the past Teremus once mentioned which faction was played the most and they also knew how long the average game was (8 turns at the time). Additionally, Merlin knew that games where one player got a turn 1 Wealthy Noble and the other didn't, the player with the noble won 80% of the time. So YM has stats, at least to some extent.

When Yodo changed the legendaries, I'm pretty sure that it was more than just "your cries" that led them to do so. And given the quality of the changes that you've suggested since your return, I hope they don't listen to your cries.

Now as soon as the game starts I have important choices to make.

- How many fire bolts do I run?

0

Yup. Believe it or not, Firebolt's a bad card, suboptimal removal even though it is certainly playable in draft, where removal is short and people are playing suboptimally anyway, and I suppose in limited formats like IW2013-Only where you just don't have enough access to removal and have to settle for bad cards.

And before you bring it up, Heatwave sucks. The fact that it can wipe out a line of aspirants doesn't matter because Aspirants also suck and no one plays them (which, on a different note, is why Orisolve's scale of "how many aspirants does it trade with" is utterly ridiculous).

You said most every faction (Generalized statement which will allow for back tracking when called out, "I said most every faction not all of them") has something to do Turn 1. When Exiles only have 2 1 cost characters and Sleepers only have 1... How can possibly I take you seriously after a statement like that... you tell me. Sure if you are FD or Overseers then sure you have plenty to do Turn 1, outside of that you are out of luck.

Furthermore my comment about Firebolt was in liue of my recommend card additions, which you obviously didnt read, because if you did you would have noticed that the bulk of them are 4/5 health. Which raises the question of whether or not you should run firebolts... But considering your first comment, I shouldnt be surprised that you critisized the thread without reading it... I mean it is pretty long so I understand but... you are normally way better when it comes to things like this. I am actually quite surprised...

Offline Benionin

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 05:51:17 AM »
This is all off of the top of my head, so I may have missed something.

Things Exiles Can Do Turn 1 (without splashing)
Activate Ritual Master
Play Ixxi
Play Rock Chucker
Play Waste Chucker

Thanks to the command zone, you can guarantee at least one of those things happening. Congrats! You've now done something on the first turn of the game.

Things FD Can Do Turn 1
Well, you're probably playing Klore. You've got more options, like hold him back and play something else like a Commando, but you're probably playing Klore.

Things GI Can Do Turn 1
Are you running Aleta in command? Congrats, you have a 1-cost ability that can buff most of your characters. Or you can play Timmy Bot. Or Support Drone. Even Kinetically Overloaded Drone.

Things Warpath Can Do Turn 1
A WILD ALETA APPEARS
Don't play Hulking Sniper targeting an enemy command card unless it's Rhaz.

Things CoV Can Do Turn 1
Rita. You'd better have a good reason to not activate Rita. Maybe you're using Lightning Blast on something.

Things the Sleepers Can Do Turn 1
Well, you're right, it's pretty darned limited. Unless you're playing Scavengers from your hand, I suppose you can bury something or play Diseased Zombie. But the Sleepers pool is pretty darned limited anyway.

Things those puffying pigeons the Overseers Can Do Turn 1
Probably Rhaziel. He's their Klore. But flying. And a little worse. But maybe you're playing Cornicen or Striker of Solace. Or an Angel's Protection to save Rhaziel from the Lightning Blast your CoV opponent is using.

Things the DoD Can Do Turn 1
Let Gao Han sit in defense. Maybe play an Intimidating Monk on an opponent's commander, or use a Spirit Armor or a Lance of Jinhai. This is arguably the worst faction for early game options. I suppose you can play Quest for Balance, or shoot yourself in the foot by activating Xi Ascended's ability.

Things the Factionless Can Do Turn 1
Aleta can make a Tribble, I guess. You can play Alpha One, or a Soldier of Fortune, or a Gather Thoughts. Evellee can tutor up 0-cost cards.

All of that is without splashing. The command zone allows you to set up your early turns or characters with activated abilities that you want, like Aletas or Rita. While some factions certainly have more choice than others during the opening turns, all of them have something to do.

Now, you've pointed out that the early game has few "meaningful decisions," which may be true, but then you equate that with "nothing important happening," which is not. There are still decisions to be made, even if not in terms of what you're playing, then how you're playing it (which is often more important).

To focus on the Exiles (because you mentioned them, I've no doubt you're aware of the Exiles early game options being an avid EX player), you most likely have to choose where you're putting that Ixxi (RM sees little play, and if you're running Ixxi you have to play him). Do you place it in assault, hoping to get some damage in? Or do you place it in defense, hoping to trade with your opponent's one-drop. Where are they putting theirs? This early moves have massive implications on how the rest of the game plays out, because IW is a game where tempo is of paramount importance, and establishing an early tempo lead can easily win or lose games. That's why the FD is so good--they have so many ways to secure and press home an early game tempo advantage, even if their lategame is lackluster. It's not that the FD has who-knows-how-many 1-drops, since they're probably playing one of two on turn 1, it's that from the get-go the Dawn is working to build an advantage. If you aren't, then you are placing yourself at a disadvantage for other players to exploit.
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Offline Weak_Wolf

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 06:59:07 PM »

So you seemed to miss a major point of mine, I will just qoute them so you can read them.
Quote
It has always seemed counter intuitive to me that a fast paced game built around simultaneous turns would be so slow paced. Outside of Flame Dawn I feel like my first few turns mainly consist of me waiting to have a chance to make a meaningful decision around Turns 3-4. And then after that I either did something useful or screwed up and spend the next few turns trying to turn things around.


Quote
The only problem is that as of right now there is no early game. Apart from the Flame Dawn and the occasional Logarythmatron there are no meaningful decisions to be made during the early game. This is an important problem because it creates a clunky dynamic where you do nothing of importance turns 1-3, then Turns 4-7 you are making life changing decisions, and Turns 7 and beyond you have to deal with those consequences.

This is a textbook strawman. I say that there is nothing meaningful to do turns 1-3; you flip that to me saying there is absolutely nothing any player can do turns 1-3 and then list actions players can do on Turn 1. As if I couldnt open up the game, filter out everything except for 1 costs, and see the same results. You are either being ignorant or you are calling me stupid: either way I am disappointed.


Quote
Do you place it in assault, hoping to get some damage in? Or do you place it in defense, hoping to trade with your opponent's one-drop. Where are they putting theirs? This early moves have massive implications on how the rest of the game plays out, because IW is a game where tempo is of paramount importance, and establishing an early tempo lead can easily win or lose games. That's why the FD is so good--they have so many ways to secure and press home an early game tempo advantage, even if their lategame is lackluster. It's not that the FD has who-knows-how-many 1-drops, since they're probably playing one of two on turn 1, it's that from the get-go the Dawn is working to build an advantage. If you aren't, then you are placing yourself at a disadvantage for other players to exploit.

... Oh yes the great strategy of whether you will place your Ixxi in the assault or defense position... I am not even going to respond to this...  With each response I am losing more and more respect for you and it is frustrating me...wtf happened to you man.



Offline Benionin

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 08:41:08 PM »
wtf happened to you man.

Honestly? It was the DoD Campaign.
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Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2017, 07:23:28 PM »
Honestly? Benionin wants $20 too.
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Offline Sobaream

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2017, 04:21:57 AM »
What I don't seem to understand is why OP converts a rant into a long winded novel just to be posted on the forums. Also why don't OP ever tried CoV with exiles? Since CoV will provide demon fliers that will make exiles all the more a stronger faction. Summoning stone for instance is an awesome artifact to do just that, though I'm honestly not a fan of that 6cd artifact (hellmouth) to create 2 of 6|6 flyers by paying 6 every turn because again that's using alot of resources for that in mid to late game, cuz skill play is more important for CoV than summoning low hp fliers to defend. Instead, i prefer the 2 cost CoV unit card (hellkeeper) that places 2 flying demons of 0 cost into the deck. Also there's another verore card (hellcaller) that lets you select a demon card to be at the top of your deck and also a verore card (master of demons) that gains +1|+1 for every demon deployed. All this give rise to why CoV goes very well with exiles (demons).
My favourite cards are adaptive ritualist for exiles to recycle cards from the graveyard back to your by discarding another card you have. Spontaneous combustion to splash AoE dmg on all the enemy deployed units. Mark of the demon great skill card to either buff own demon units or or debuff enemy units. Demonize great skill card to make any monster a 5|5 for breakfast and also a great way to kill curb fliers. CoV with kidnapper is simply amazing altho if i were to have CoV, rita would certainly be in my Cmd zone just to summon guards on turn 1. Acquires.. oh i cant tell you how i like this card so much - copies 3 cards from your opponent's hand thus giving free cards to discard, sometimes even helps to make hand full faster to discard exiles into the graveyard (especially after creating 3 demon 4|4 in hand and discarding them will allow exile to play them as 6|6 for 1 resource.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 07:44:34 PM by Sobaream »

Offline Sobaream

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2017, 05:14:53 AM »
I've been playing for 2 months now and all i can say is that i really enjoy IW even though the game sometimes still crash on me while creating a fun deck. I enjoy sleepers because of only 1 artifact card: tome of the dead. However, i found that sleepers lack alot of deployable units to raise from the graveyard back to the support zone. Recurring nightmare is one good example but endless horde is quite terrible. While using bury, sleeper of avarrach will gain alot of stats while remaining in the graveyard but raising it from the graveyard though requires hekheem the fallen which is a 3ple sleeper purity card to raise cards with 3 cost or less into the support zone. Having 1 more hekheem fallen in the deck is also essential to prevent him from being kidnapped or killed by CoV. Aleta immortal sufferer instead creates a 4|4 zombie and removes the original card from the graveyard. Honestly, i won't mind that if there could be 1 more ability for aleta and that is: to pay X and raise target unit characater from the graveyard unto the support zone and becomes undead with its subtypes, where X is the cost of the character -2. This will actually make sleepers deck alot more potent and sleeper's aleta more useful.
Another thing I've been playing around for sleepers is tome of dead on chapter 2, play undead corruption on an enemy creature so that when they die from tome of the dead on chapter 3, it goes directly to my support zone and becomes undead as well (direct means of infecting).
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 06:44:30 AM by Sobaream »

Offline OneTwo

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Re: My Last Post: Make IW Great Again with these changes [Fear]
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2017, 11:35:28 AM »
The problem with "meaningful" is that it always ends with a must-do or must-have! At the end of the day, game is centered around those few strategies or the impact the 1drops have.

Instead of giving each faction a meaningful 1st turn weapon, it sounds much more interesting, to give no faction any meaningful 1st turn weapon. No charge or vigliance either!

Commanders are not allowed to use their abilities from command. Commandzone is only allowed for 5 cost or bigger cards.