Author Topic: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?  (Read 2290 times)

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« on: May 08, 2016, 05:22:16 AM »
During an editing discussion on the Wiki the question of just what is official came up.

Sometimes the cards can contradict the campaign and official statements, leading to disagreements of which source should be viewed as final. For instance, in one interview Agent Coyle stated that Alpha One becomes Zomborg while the flavor text for Alpha one states that he encountered and fought against Zomborg. In another example, previous statements indicated that the Flame Dawn and Verore never came in contact but the flavor text of Fiery Resolve explicitly links the two.

Perhaps all of this is a moot point as a shiny new campaign is going to come out, but until then we work with what we have. Hopefully the campaign update will also include an update to contraversial flavor text. Can anyone from Yodomare confirm whether we should default to cards or previous statements concerning lore controversies?
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2016, 05:41:05 AM »
Here are some really old WWK quotes about the situation.

The only world GI and FD know of beyond Talich is the Old World, which they call the New World, and then they learn of Avarrach when the sleepers appear.

They still dont know Riesch, and Verore and DoD and Exiles, exists.

At the time the [original] campaigns were made, there was no lore.

Robbie didnt want players fighting the same faction over and over and over.

I have done new campaigns that makes sure you fight only factions you are meant to fight, as well as (hopefully if they can get it right) give you a glimpse at some of the characters.

See flavour text on flame dawn paladin, who also has never met verore.

A wizard did it.

As a rule, ignore the flavour of all hybrid cards. They were designed for gameplay purposes and I had no input on them. (Hence, pras)

There are lots of little holes in the lore here and there. I'm working to get most of them sorted out, but some things just can't be fixed without totally eradicating cards. And artwork costs a lot more than story telling, so artwork that goes against the story wins (which ironically, is the reason why the story is as it is, but that's a story I shouldn't tell)

In the end, there should be less conflicting artworks to the story from now on :)

Sometimes cards are made for the purpose of making the game fun, and catering to the players needs.  FD/Verore is a popular combination.  Saying to them "Im sorry, but you cant play your deck with cohesion because it goes against the lore" is kind of a slap in the face to fun.

Ok, yes.  Pras COULD have been offered safe passage for his betrayal of the dawn.

Follow up questions.  Why?  What does a member of the dawn, a male one at that, have to offer to verore with his betrayal?  Flame Dawn and Verore have never met each other in the field of battle, and with the Sleeper invasion happening, even if they had, fighting each other would be the least of their worries.  But lets not gloss over the fact the two factions havent met.  So why would the female dominated society of magic users care about a traitor to a faction two worlds and a bajillion zombies away?

Same deal with the Hermit.  Yes, it is feasible that some guy escaped the world of verore because... why wouldnt you.  He could be near a rift that opened onto avarrach, which was near another rift that opened onto New World.  And then suddenly, by fact of hating verore so much, he becomes best buddies with all animals everywhere? If I were to have a hand in that characters story, his living on Riesch and the tainted land would leave him with a taint that would be sniffed out by every beast as something unnatural.  If real life animals can sense natural disasters, im sure fantasy animals can sense demonic corruption, and its not something they would find pleasant.

There isnt a lore trap I am locked in. Its a logic one.  Sure, I COULD unnaturally force the ends to meet, but thats just poor and lazy writing, and it leaves gaping plot holes that I would be very unhapyp with, and would lead me to having to say the exact same thing I am already saying, but instead it would be making very poor excuses as to why my work is bad, when I would rather just take the easy out offered to my by the cards designers when they said to me "Dont worry about hte lore of the Hybrid cards.  They dont make sense, they are just there to get the factions working together".

This is old stuff, but it reflects how the lore coalesced after the game did. This supports the concept of some old flavor texts being non-canonical.
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2016, 07:07:25 AM »
One of the difficulties with making the campaign is that it needs to be a teaching tool for new players in addition to conveying the lore of the game. Sometimes it is easier to just sacrifice the latter for the former, but I think the expanded challenge missions can pick up slack while not affecting canon.
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2016, 07:56:44 AM »
Well it's been four days and no response. Gonna bump it hoping to at least get a "Yes, we've seen this and are discussing internally"
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline Crestmoor

  • Infinity Wars Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 353
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2016, 08:31:13 AM »
Well it's been four days and no response. Gonna bump it hoping to at least get a "Yes, we've seen this and are discussing internally"

"Yes, we've seen this and are discussing internally" ;D
Crestmoor the Omnimind
-----------------------------
Draft deck with Omnimind, Lanstead and War Machine = A can of WhoopAss for all occasions

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2016, 08:44:39 AM »
Well it's been four days and no response. Gonna bump it hoping to at least get a "Yes, we've seen this and are discussing internally"

"Yes, we've seen this and are discussing internally" ;D

I really set myself up for that, didn't I?  ;D
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 08:57:01 AM by Benionin »
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline Cleanse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • Message Cleanse on Infinity Wars Wiki
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2016, 09:22:20 AM »
(crosspost of what I said on the Wiki)

The way I see it the lore is what is said on the cards and the campaign. Interviews etc. can fill in the gaps, but only to the extent they don't contradict what's in the game.

Personally, I don't think any of the cards mentioned should be changed. Nor should any cards be considered "non-canon" just because they don't fit a preconceived notion. The only things that are non-canon are promotional sets like Star Trek, which weren't intended to be part of the Infinity Wars universe.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 09:24:39 AM by Cleanse »

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2016, 09:34:24 AM »
The way I see it the lore is what is said on the cards and the campaign. Interviews etc. can fill in the gaps, but only to the extent they don't contradict what's in the game.

The trouble is when the cards and campaign have conflicted. There's the point of disagreement. Me, I look to the campaign, the narrative, every time. I've drummed up some old quotes to support that view here. Some of the cards were created before the lore was, and therefore have come into conflict with what was established in the storyline. I think those cards should have their flavor text updated (as I noted in my campaign wishlist post, you can actually do so with changes to one or two words on each) to fall in line. Shikana's flavor text was updated to show that she's female. With FD Paladin you can take out the "black" from "black magic" without changing the meaning of the card. With Fiery Resolve you can change "Verore" to "enemy" without changing the point being conveyed. These are direct points of conflict between card and lore that can be fixed without damaging the point of the flavor text.
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline Cleanse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • Message Cleanse on Infinity Wars Wiki
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 09:43:36 AM »
I don't see any contradiction between any of the mentioned cards and the current campaign. Old campaigns, like interviews, should be considered secondary to what's in the game now.

Again, the fact we don't explicitly see some contact between FD and Verore in the current storyline (yet) doesn't mean there wasn't any. (EDIT: Actually, see my next post.)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:57:19 AM by Cleanse »

Offline Klassick

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 634
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 10:36:55 AM »
I am at my phone now but, that are some things I guess that may influence this topic.

As I was analyzing the cards, I notice that the factions of Talich don't have ANY Abilities cards with the subtype that indicates that they use magical abilities.

The factions with magical abilities were the CoV and DoD (Exiles has one magical ability - demonize) and, later, OoS.

Although, FD has various characters and card abilities that counter magic.

So, I was thinking too that is something missing here. We have a world of magic (Reisch) and other of technology (Talich) that did not officially crossed paths before so,, how FD did start so fast to have counters for spells (magical abilities)?

OK, cards like Tinkerer Aleta tell us that some did knew about the other dimensions (GI Aleta knew it for more than a thousand years) and this can maybe justifies that some characters came in contact with the other worlds somehow and could explain characters like Hermit and Pras but... The gap stills there... How FD could counter abilities (magical) of a world only a few knew? I guess that are some possibilities to explain that.

Will back here later for more. 
« Last Edit: May 12, 2016, 10:42:52 AM by Klassick »

Offline NatoPotato

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • Guns don't kill people, ninjas kill people.
    • View Profile
    • CLICK ME
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 10:51:36 AM »
Personally I think the only cards that actually NEEDS a flavour text change is Alpha one, I mean sure some cards it could be cool but it's not like they're completely contradicting other cards like alpha one.

Alpha one says he found the infected coyle, while the text of soulseller and hellbringer both say alpha one was the infected one, alpha one should probably be changed seeing as hes 'outnumbered'.

Offline Cleanse

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
    • View Profile
    • Message Cleanse on Infinity Wars Wiki
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 10:55:01 AM »
Also, this happens in the current campaign:




and this:

Offline Crestmoor

  • Infinity Wars Staff
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 353
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 12:39:02 AM »
OK so whats in the cards/campaign are canon.

Any other comments gleaned from WWK, interviews or other out of game sources may have been an attempt by the Flame Dawn empire to spread misinformation and sow the seeds of war...
Crestmoor the Omnimind
-----------------------------
Draft deck with Omnimind, Lanstead and War Machine = A can of WhoopAss for all occasions

Offline Benionin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1712
  • Let's talk about this
    • View Profile
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 06:18:45 AM »
In that case the new campaign can't come soon enough, because I replayed the (current) campaign today and it tells something like 1/10th of the story. The cutscenes and objectives parts of the current campaign are good, but otherwise it's a complete backward step compared to the older stuff.

Ah well, I can tell when I've been beaten. At least the Talich lore has stayed more or less constant over the years.
Resident LoreNinja, Tavern-Ninja
Gao Han or Gao Home!
Into the Fray, a novel of Infinity Wars
Weekly Storywriting Stream

Offline NatoPotato

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • Guns don't kill people, ninjas kill people.
    • View Profile
    • CLICK ME
Re: Dear Yodomare: What's Canon?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2016, 02:19:40 PM »
Basically just a copy of my comment in the wiki about the Talich<->Old World<->Avarrach<->Reish 'rift chain'

"I was always under the impression that all the rifts were simply between the old world and the other worlds, essentially making the old world a nexus or 'central hub', it makes sense because the old world is the world where the calamity happened, aka the 'core' or 'original' world.

This would explain things like Flame Dawn fighting the Cult of Verore despite apparently being separated by Avarrach, it also fits with the story of the cards, when the whole Avarrach awakening thing happens its a huge deal because them taking over the old world grants them access to all the other worlds, also would explain why they were hitting the old world so hard but not having much presence in Reish, sure some undead were getting in reish (infected monk) but its totally possible they had come from the old world rather than directly from avarrach, also shows that Coyle was able to travel from Talich to the old world for Primal Hunter and then to Reish for Immovable without ever interacting with Avarrach.

This theory also fits with the current campaign, as there is a rift between the old world and Reish and features both the Flame Dawn and Cult of Verore invading and coming into confilt with one another. (though we wont know for certain until avarrach is accessible in campaign and we can see if it has rifts to worlds other than the old world)"