Author Topic: Proposed Tourney schedule options, and large increase in prizes. [Major topic]  (Read 7136 times)

Offline InvertedEye

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Yup, Backwards.

I say anyone who isn't Ranked in the top 50 should not be allowed to participate in tournaments.  ;D

Then we would no longer need qualifier matches.  :o

But then I would have to play ranked and ranked sucks.

Offline largenuggets [BoD]

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I would suggest going by rank, constructed primarily. This would be the best way to go since skill is a hard thing to quantify.

I like tournaments because I get to play a lot of good players in a short space of time.

The exact opposite is why I hate ranked. I would hate to see them linked together.

Someone telling me I can't participate in an event because I'm 'too good' seems a little.... to me. If it's an event I don't care about or can't attend anyway then I don't really care, but if it was for something I liked the prizes for, why should I be excluded simply because I have put more effort into learning the game than others have?

Just seems a bit backwards to me.

I agree, I don't see why anyone would want to play in a tournament where the best players can't participate... I get that newer players want to get a taste of the competition and thrill of winning the tournament, but personally if I was a newer player I wouldn't really feel good about winning if the tourney was in "easy mode" lol. I guess "Noob Only" tournies would be fine as long as they don't take away from the regular competitive tournaments and do NOT offer Infinity border cards lol.

Offline ES [BoD]

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I would suggest going by rank, constructed primarily. This would be the best way to go since skill is a hard thing to quantify.

I like tournaments because I get to play a lot of good players in a short space of time.

The exact opposite is why I hate ranked. I would hate to see them linked together.

Someone telling me I can't participate in an event because I'm 'too good' seems a little.... to me. If it's an event I don't care about or can't attend anyway then I don't really care, but if it was for something I liked the prizes for, why should I be excluded simply because I have put more effort into learning the game than others have?

Just seems a bit backwards to me.

I agree, I don't see why anyone would want to play in a tournament where the best players can't participate... I get that newer players want to get a taste of the competition and thrill of winning the tournament, but personally if I was a newer player I wouldn't really feel good about winning if the tourney was in "easy mode" lol. I guess "Noob Only" tournies would be fine as long as they don't take away from the regular competitive tournaments and do NOT offer Infinity border cards lol.

I agree with Merlin and nuggets, although i can see where you are coming from Miennai, you must be frustrated a bit, tbh that what used to motivate me to become better but I'm ok with not participating in a "new player tourny" as long as the prize isn't an Infinity border.
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Offline Wayfinder1026

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50LP for streaming the entire event seems underwhelming. I will still stream my matches because I always do for events, but you can't even do a single Rift Run with 50 LP, not sure what good that will do.

Also the exact timeslots for these events will stay the same? Because I will not be able to attend any of them during the weekday if you shift them to earlier times.

I'm sure it will add up over time. >_>
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Offline Miennai

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Someone telling me I can't participate in an event because I'm 'too good' seems a little.... to me. If it's an event I don't care about or can't attend anyway then I don't really care, but if it was for something I liked the prizes for, why should I be excluded simply because I have put more effort into learning the game than others have?

Just seems a bit backwards to me.

That why I was thinking of it as being more or less why it would be an occasional "special" event, but I do see where you're coming from.

Offline Miennai

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...but I'm ok with not participating in a "new player tourny" as long as the prize isn't an Infinity border.

Oh of course not, that was one of my main points. The prize is what makes a tourney valuable, that's why what I'm suggesting be offered is mainly the experience. On top of that, I also suggest it be an occasional thing, something which only shows up every few months or so, again with the intent of not taking away from the open tournaments. Personally, I like the idea but I have no problem putting it away if either the demand isn't there or if it has any kind of negative effect on the main tournaments. Drew has done a fantastic job on the tourneys so far and what I suggest is merely a add-on that I think could help reach that wider audience, I don't consider it to be a pivotal improvement.

Offline DrewUniverse

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Thanks to everyone for the feedback so far. I expected a much different response, I'll admit. Now to answer some questions, clarify a few things and neutralize some pre-conceived ideas that won't be occurring in this space.


Disclaimer: this is a long, but relevant reply string to several players that have responded. You're welcome to skip it if you don't like meaty discussion, or skip to where I replied to you in particular. That said, I feel I did a good job addressing just about everyone. Edit: I also admit I was still feeling residual heat in some of my response, and have apologized for my overreaction regarding stream LP and player competition





is there any chance of an "amateur hour" kind of thing?

Yes, this is an interest of mine but difficult to achieve with a minimal population alongside timezone differences. Pauper is a first-step in this direction without actually removing top-tier players from the right to participate, instead leveling the tools available to each player.

How would you decide who are the amateurs and who are the strong players that can't enter?

One method is to pull from the loose MMR/Elo ratings current shown in-game; they show accumulating weekly points, but could serve so many other purposes such as wekely rewards, tournament qualification, etc. I've spoken on this before: the leading "manual" way to do this right now would be to test and develop a segregation system. These are example numbers. Tier 1 could be anyone with a score between 1700 and 2000. Tier 2 @ 1400-1700, and Tier 3 @ 1100-1400. This is a common system adopted by modern competitive games such as Brawlhalla for their Bronze/Silver/Gold/etc ranking system, although other formats also work. I've done the tier system in a racing game because the same three people kept winning every weekend.

So I tested over 200 drivers personally, documented lap/sector times as well as their handling when cornering, passing another driver, etc. After all that testing I was able to create three tiers of drivers, and each Saturday we did one event for each tier, one after another, and it worked amazingly. Closer races, and nobody was way behind or far ahead. Thankfully we wouldn't need to do performance testing to that caliber here, but we still cannot enact a truly fair ranking/tier system without a more advanced MMR/Elo measuring tool in-game as well as a larger population. Doing this manually, now, would be tricky.

50LP for streaming the entire event seems underwhelming. I will still stream my matches because I always do for events, but you can't even do a single Rift Run with 50 LP, not sure what good that will do.

Really surprised by your response and I'm not sure how you missed this... but a fair concern. Yes, 50 LP is a bit small. Initially, the projected count was 100 LP per streamed event. This was adjusted when I brought up Youtube uploading, as some people can record/upload but not stream. This was done out of fairness for those folks.

Please consider: Aside from newcomers to the streaming space, all you guys are doing is pushing a button; no commentary is required, no viewer count required. You're essentially getting a door prize for almost any event you attend, which is quite generous. Keep in mind that many participants have attended two or more events each week, vastly increasing accumulated free LP. As a final thought, consider the new LP prize spread being offered for events like the weekday elimination events: 12th-9th get 50 LP, 8th-5th get 100 LP. I'd implore you to reconsider how this all adds up in the end, even for players that place just about dead-last.

We're trying not to give away so much LP that you guys never have the urge to buy some. This is designed as a trickle-source, just like real-life vitamins they don't replace the human diet; they're supplemental and that's how it needs to stay.

Also the exact timeslots for these events will stay the same? Because I will not be able to attend any of them during the weekday if you shift them to earlier times.

The timeslots will stay the same or very similar at this stage, for weekday events in Zone 1 and 2. I can make slight adjustments on request, but my next step here is to issue a survey and ask participants if they could make it with just a one hour adjustment or not, as well as alternate time requests altogether that are not near a current event time.



I think I can speak for most players when I say that picking the Infinite Border card at random from the command zone is pretty pointless and is honestly kind of annoying. Why should someone who just won a competitive event through skill get a random reward?....This is also even more punishing to the newer players and underdogs who defy the odds to win a single tournament and are super excited only to not be allowed to choose their prize... It also could make tournaments feel almost like a chore for more skilled players because they will want to "farm tournaments" to get the prize they want.

I think your assessment is fair, and I've heard it multiple times. Yeah, why an RNG reward for a skill event? I don't think I can explain why at this moment, as well as Crestmoor or Rikki might. That being said, do you have a better idea? If yo uwant players to choose, where do you draw the line? Should it be any card in the deck? Any card in the collection? We'll always be seeing foil epics and legendaries, never an IB Splitter bot or an IB Aether Acolyte, for example. See what I mean? I'm not against the ticket prize, in fact I was the one who drafted a blue-colored ticket variant of the old Golden Ticket. In any case, we need to weigh IW staff's concern alongside the concern of the playerbase, in order for this subject to move forward.


Someone telling me I can't participate in an event because I'm 'too good' seems a little.... to me. If it's an event I don't care about or can't attend anyway then I don't really care, but if it was for something I liked the prizes for, why should I be excluded simply because I have put more effort into learning the game than others have?

Just seems a bit backwards to me.


Definitely getting the wrong impression here from Miennai. He's interested in the big picture, making sure everyone gets taken care of - including you. But right now, he's the one in need. You don't have to worry about getting stomped automatically in round one frequently - He and many others do, and that's okay. He'll get there, but in the meantime the best action is to help bridge the gap, give players opponents who are a little stronger, a little weaker, or the same skill level just about.  Getting flattened, or flattening others, is not a center for learning in most game spaces. It can happen, but for it to happen a lot is a huge moral risk that we have no need to resort to. The coaching offers I've seen are one way to help with that.


There is not any worry that suddenly we will have four New-Person tournaments a week; where general admittance becomes a thing of the past. One event a week would be just fine with the current player population. Similarly, top-rank events are also fair to have - it's about taking care of everyone we can.


I'm completely stunned that you assume weaker or lower-ranking players are not trying as hard as you. Seriously, the hell?  Doesn't sound like you; then again, I don't know you that well. Skill isn't the only factor. There's time available to play between work and life. Some people are more naturally talented than others. It is completely false that someone is working the hardest just because they hit top-tier. Achievement and effort are not automatically synonymous. Some players have a tougher time, including mental disability. They deserve a place where they stand half a chance; it feels like you expect everyone to get to top tier with enough work, and that just never happens in any game in history. I'm asking for you to think about that. 


I don't see why anyone would want to play in a tournament where the best players can't participate... I get that newer players want to get a taste of the competition and thrill of winning the tournament, but personally if I was a newer player I wouldn't really feel good about winning if the tourney was in "easy mode" lol. I guess "Noob Only" tournies would be fine as long as they don't take away from the regular competitive tournaments


This is more about making sure new players don't have "Hardest Difficulty" as the only option. Newbie events has been done frequently in many game spaces. In StarCraft, several organizers, clans and groups have tiered events only for certain skill-level players, because a Bronze league player vs a Diamond League player is an absolute waste of time; the outcome is guaranteed. So some tournaments are Bronze League only, and all the platinum/gold/silver/masters players have plenty of other events all the time. It works. One "new person" tournament a week would not take anything away from the general player experience and most every event will always allow full admission from all players.


One of my largest goals here is accessibility and fairness, and another one is being inclusive. So yes, everyone is going to be taken care of and not a single part of the playerbase has anything to worry about. I honestly feel I conveyed this quite clearly from day one, and earned that confidence already; but apparently I have not. Good thing I'm pushing even harder, so it can one day be enough to satisfy. I'm not saying I'm fantastic or doing everything in the best manner, but I deliberately handle things extensively to take the greatest care I can with communities. One day, you guys will believe in me and have minimal doubts beyond my human error.






Yup, Backwards.

I say anyone who isn't Ranked in the top 50 should not be allowed to participate in tournaments.  ;D

Then we would no longer need qualifier matches.  :o

But then I would have to play ranked and ranked sucks.


Ironically, these two responses are the easiest to deal with.







I will continue to reflect on player feedback through the day, and see what I can do to improve the quality of service. Will be here to answer any questions or comments that I can.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 11:52:36 PM by DrewUniverse »

Offline Interesting_Socks

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I'm completely stunned that you assume weaker or lower-ranking players are not trying as hard as you. Seriously, the hell? 

I don't think that was arrogance from Merlin. He really does put a lot of effort into this game and no one has tested more match-ups than this guy. It's the reason he always knows all the bugs and weird interactions between cards, because he's always playing with or against them.

Offline MerliniX

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I'm completely stunned that you assume weaker or lower-ranking players are not trying as hard as you. Seriously, the hell?  Doesn't sound like you; then again, I don't know you that well. Skill isn't the only factor. There's time available to play between work and life. Some people are more naturally talented than others. It is completely false that someone is working the hardest just because they hit top-tier. Achievement and effort are not automatically synonymous. Some players have a tougher time, including mental disability. They deserve a place where they stand half a chance; it feels like you expect everyone to get to top tier with enough work, and that just never happens in any game in history. I'm asking for you to think about that.

?? You are putting a lot of weird motivations and assumptions behind what I said here. I have spent over 5000 hours on this game, in the game itself, and probably another 4000+ behind the scenes between work with the Infinity Council and theory and meta crafting with OTK. I very much doubt there are more than half a dozen players in the history of Infinity Wars that have put as much work into it as me. In fact - simply because of how hostile this turned, I challenge you to find anyone you consider to be a 'lower tier' player that has even half the in game time that I do.

I think your assessment is fair, and I've heard it multiple times. Yeah, why an RNG reward for a skill event? I don't think I can explain why at this moment, as well as Crestmoor or Rikki might. That being said, do you have a better idea? If yo uwant players to choose, where do you draw the line? Should it be any card in the deck? Any card in the collection? We'll always be seeing foil epics and legendaries, never an IB Splitter bot or an IB Aether Acolyte, for example. See what I mean?

I don't know about this - I would 100% want an IB Splitter before literally any other card in the game. In fact I can think of 0 legendries that I would ever want as IB, other than possibly Defiant Hermit.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 11:19:33 PM by MerliniX »

Offline ES [BoD]

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I'm completely stunned that you assume weaker or lower-ranking players are not trying as hard as you. Seriously, the hell? 

I don't think that was arrogance from Merlin. He really does put a lot of effort into this game and no one has tested more match-ups than this guy. It's the reason he always knows all the bugs and weird interactions between cards, because he's always playing with or against them.

I think that was a bit uncalled for from Merlin, we need to try and understand other player's perspectives and opinions of the game, diffent as they made be from our own.
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Offline largenuggets [BoD]

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I think I can speak for most players when I say that picking the Infinite Border card at random from the command zone is pretty pointless and is honestly kind of annoying. Why should someone who just won a competitive event through skill get a random reward?....This is also even more punishing to the newer players and underdogs who defy the odds to win a single tournament and are super excited only to not be allowed to choose their prize... It also could make tournaments feel almost like a chore for more skilled players because they will want to "farm tournaments" to get the prize they want.

I think your assessment is fair, and I've heard it multiple times. Yeah, why an RNG reward for a skill event? I don't think I can explain why at this moment, as well as Crestmoor or Rikki might. That being said, do you have a better idea? If yo uwant players to choose, where do you draw the line? Should it be any card in the deck? Any card in the collection? We'll always be seeing foil epics and legendaries, never an IB Splitter bot or an IB Aether Acolyte, for example. See what I mean? I'm not against the ticket prize, in fact I was the one who drafted a blue-colored ticket variant of the old Golden Ticket. In any case, we need to weigh IW staff's concern alongside the concern of the playerbase, in order for this subject to move forward.

The important thing to realize here is that the cards are all soulbound. Because of this, it literally doesn't matter what card a player chooses, it will not effect the economy at all. A player could have 15 infinity border foil martyr golems and it would not change the value of martyr golem at ALL or effect the economy in the least. I think in the very least the winner should be allowed to select the card from their command zone, but if they would select it from their deck or collection that would be fine too! Selecting from deck would be what I would prefer because then we could pick ability cards (IB Calamity would be awesome) while their reward will still be related to what they used to win.

Just to put it into perspective, imagine  I win a tournament and choose calamity as my prize. The only way that would effect the economy is that a single regular calamity which I no longer need is now added to the market. Even tho calamity is a rare card this has effected the economy and devalued calamity literally as much as a random person opening calamity, which is hardly at all.

Also because the cards are soubound and only trophies, having an infinity border Martyr Golem or Calamity is exactly as impressive as having a soulbound Aether Acolyte or Support Drone or anything else like that. Someone sees it and thinks "oh wow! they won a competitive event!" not "oh man that IB card is so rare and expesive, I wonder if he will trade it"
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 11:22:08 PM by largenuggets »

Offline MerliniX

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I'm completely stunned that you assume weaker or lower-ranking players are not trying as hard as you. Seriously, the hell? 

I don't think that was arrogance from Merlin. He really does put a lot of effort into this game and no one has tested more match-ups than this guy. It's the reason he always knows all the bugs and weird interactions between cards, because he's always playing with or against them.

I think that was a bit uncalled for from Merlin, we need to try and understand other player's perspectives and opinions of the game, diffent as they made be from our own.

I didn't say anything remotely uncalled for. See my above response.

Offline ES [BoD]

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I'm completely stunned that you assume weaker or lower-ranking players are not trying as hard as you. Seriously, the hell? 

I don't think that was arrogance from Merlin. He really does put a lot of effort into this game and no one has tested more match-ups than this guy. It's the reason he always knows all the bugs and weird interactions between cards, because he's always playing with or against them.

I think that was a bit uncalled for from Merlin, we need to try and understand other player's perspectives and opinions of the game, diffent as they made be from our own.

I didn't say anything remotely uncalled for. See my above response.

Huh, it seems that Drew overreacted, i apologize.
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Offline DrewUniverse

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?? You are putting a lot of weird motivations and assumptions behind what I said here. I have spent over 5000 hours on this game, in the game itself, and probably another 4000+ behind the scenes between work with the Infinity Council and theory and meta crafting with OTK. I very much doubt there are more than half a dozen players in the history of Infinity Wars that have put as much work into it as me. In fact - simply because of how hostile this turned, I challenge you to find anyone you consider to be a 'lower tier' player that has even half the in game time that I do.

I'm not implying others have done "more." The way I interpreted this, it looked quite like you think no one can amount to you unless they put in, as you say, 5,000 hours. In addition, quantity isn't everything - someone may certainly achieve high rank without your amount of gametime or other experience - with or without the council involvement included. I am sure you know that, so I think we're on the same page.

Long story short, this is what triggered me: "why should I be excluded simply because I have put more effort into learning the game than others have?" To me, that reads like no one could ever amount to your level of play unless they put in the same time as you do, and that felt discriminatory against players who have less time to invest, or have other disadvantages. I realize now that you didn't intend to convey that.

I don't like the idea that someone who has less time or "hard effort" to spare would automatically rank low. It doesn't work that way all the time, not as a rule. I sincerely apologize for being somewhat heated and making instigations, but please consider how the sentence reads. That's all I ask. Yes, I overreacted.

Offline DrewUniverse

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The important thing to realize here is.... it literally doesn't matter what card a player chooses, it will not effect the economy at all. A player could have 15 infinity border foil martyr golems and it would not change the value of martyr golem at ALL or effect the economy in the least.

I also think the debate has nothing to do with the economy. From my standpoint: I would be fully disinterested to play PVP and see almost every IB card I encounter as Sol, Calamity, etc. I am concerned about a lack of "low-end" IB cards.. .even if that sounds backwards to the point of the Infinite Border's meaning. Yeah, they're the top "cool" cards by nature, but I for one would appreciate a more even spread of IB card representation - at least on some uncommons and rares. I was glad to hear Merlin was already on the same page as me, mentioning Splitter Bot for example. One way I wanted to nurture this perspective initially, was to ask if LM/Yodo would use blue tickets or Infinity Tickets, whatever we call them. One ticket transforms a common, 2 for uncommon, 4 for rare, 7 epic, 10 legendary or something like that. It would scale well and players could choose between four uncommons or an epic IB card. It makes sense to me anyway.