Author Topic: Tournaments!  (Read 6974 times)

Offline DrewUniverse

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Tournaments!
« on: January 07, 2016, 05:01:44 PM »
I have re-written my first sentence so many times that I'm just going to tell you I did so and leave it as-is. Oh wait, I have something. Listen to this track while you read the thread.

Edit: Tournament Poll created, please ask anyone interested to fill it out!


Precursor

Tournaments! For those that want a moderate amount of competition, prepare to whet your appetite. In readiness, open a container of cinnamon, (or nutmeg if that's your thing).

Quick understanding: Tournaments can easily go awry when managed improperly and when second opinions are absent, so I'd like some rebounds before I do too much. This is a beginning proposal of just some concepts. I consider these tournaments temporary for now, but I'd love to make them permanent if the IW staff can trly resurrect and maintain the game. I'm also looking for collaborators to help me operate everything I list below.

In addition, I think we should formally set-up a tournament Ideas/feedback forum section or child board. For those who don't want to collaborate, they of course don't have to participate. Having a dedicated place where we can talk ideas and collaborate would be fantastic, without cluttering the actual tournament board where readied listings belong. @IW Staff, please enable this so that communication can be centralized, and so that all future tournaments (Ours, and potentially yours if you start hosting) soar high with quality and consideration. 


My intentions:

Weekly Regionals

A weekly standard tournament. Bracket sets for the following area timezones: NA, EU. After evaluating the population, will determine if we're ready for a SEA-area set or other zones as well. @Everyone: I want this set to be moderately competitive, yet accessible; in other words, the main population should be able to live with its rules. Should the ruleset be similar to ranked play, or unranked? I'm considering things like the removal of Sleepers being an issue or not, and of course common card bans or limitations. For timing: I'm thinking a weeknight to be voted by the community, and a majority vote may be the best beginning determination, with room for changes going forward. Important: We're gonna come across people who can't attend because they work every (Tuesday), and I don't want them perma-alienated because the popular vote isn't a day they can make it. We could have alternating days (Tuesday this week, Thursday next week, repeat). This prevents people from never being able to attend, but also makes scheduling less straightforward and people can get confused which week it is (Tuesday or Thursday play). Ideas on this? I think it's necessary to create a bridge of some kind. Or, we hold two tournaments a week on different days so people have a better chance of making one. Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example. Maybe that sounds better to start with. Talk to me!

Other Concepts

I want to facilitate off-shoots as well as championships. One concept is a Champion of Champions event, where only tournament victors can participate. Another is a championship set where we take the Regional point standings and put the top 8, 16, or maybe 32 in a grand set. In addition, I'm interested in unique concepts such as Challenge tournaments with one-off rulesets (sometimes serious, sometimes zany. Faction purity, no double factions, card rarity limits). My most cherished intent right now is to draft an RNG tournament where rules are determined by a physical dice roll in real-life, shown via webcam. I've already printed out little faction logos to glue to a die, so that can be used to ban an entire faction from the tournament. That die can also be used to determine whether factionless cards are allowed, if we lost an entire card rarity, and whether we play with or without a 1-card-of-each-kind rule. The possibilities are endless. Right, Enyah? Remember: this is not meant for game balance, it's all about dealing with RNG as best you can.

Weekly Internationals (Time-delayed, experimental)

I'd also like to run a set for this. It may be a failed idea from the get-go, but I think it deserves a chance before being shot-down if you don't have any experience like I have in this area. For Infinity Wars, I would suggest we have registrations as normal, and once the seeds are posted it's up to the players to message each other and figure out a time they can both reasonably show up to play their matches. Will need to require at least one person to record the games. Each pair will have a week to finish their match, and then I or someone else can cast the matches. So long as that's considered enough time, I think it can work. It may sound less exciting than a contiguous 2-4 hour twitch stream where the whole event happens in 1-2 days over 1-2 sessions, but it's what can work. Heck, for new TV shows we're still seeing just one episode a week, right? =]


Branding

I previously spoke with Teremus about official sanctions for tournaments. Things may have changed, so I'm asking the IW Staff directly here: If you are not planning your own tournaments, would you be willing to adopt any of my concepts or that of other users as official IW events? If not, can we still look at a regular process for unofficial player-run events? For example, a checklist: for each tournament that comes up, give it a twitter post/link, grab our image banner if we have one, post to Facebook, and mention it in a small "upcoming tournaments" side-panel in the game client's splash page/portal you see after logging in. Maybe some sort of Google Calendar so people can subscribe to it and receive alerts? it converts time-zones automatically IIRC, so it'd be great for the full population.


I've thought of some names for this. I want to call it so many things, one of them being "The Rift Open" as a punny nod to the game lore. Depending on staff response, if all player events are "unofficial" then I will brand them under my event hosting organization's label, and use a unifying name like "The Rift Open" or "Rift Challenge Series."

« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 07:15:24 PM by DrewUniverse »

Offline Teremus

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2016, 05:55:30 PM »
Really wish I could have worked with you more. You have such great ideas. ^.^
No seriously, I really like cheese.

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Offline Wayfinder1026

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2016, 06:01:53 PM »
I would love to be involved in this. Although I would also want to participate so it's hard to decide...  :-\ :-\ :-\

But some thoughts and ideas...

First, there is a lot of great ideas here and I love you've taken the initiative. I think that at this point, with a lack of spectator mode, recording the matches is a MUST. If you want it to be hyped at all, other people need to be able to watch. There are a lot of free to use lightweight programs out there that can be used though a watermark here or there would be inevitable I suppose.
The way i'm seeing it is, BOTH players record their screens as they play. A dedicated staff can piece the vids together. It may take some skill but it should be possible to flip one side so that it appears both players are facing each other. Then posting the vid on the IW youtube channel if possible or making a new account strictly for tournaments.

Next...
I think the rewards at the start should be "small" and not monetary until the kinks are out. So first couple of tournaments can be for cards or something, and then if the goal is to make it a monetary thing, then add that after everyone has an idea of how to play. In addition, I think it would be perfect, to have a "Big Win" kind of tournament where, (depending on number of entries) there could be a 10000 dollar pot, but have a small entry fee of like 1-5 dollars. If it's alright with lightmare of course, and we could pay (from the entry fees) lightmare a portion of whatever is made. after paying out the winnings to maybe a 1st 2nd and 3rd place winner the remainder can be split between the organizers.

Also...
To make it all fair, there could be heavy limits on the most used cards. Maybe taking a couple of them out all together. I would think limiting decks to a maximum of 1 legendary, 2 epics, 3 rares is a good place to start. Or making something akin to the pauper leagues as well... but going too extreme will limit the types of decks players can make which wouldn't be as fun to watch or participate in. But there could also be a problem with mirror decks so making it so decks need to be original might be something to think about.

Finally...
Limiting factions would also help to manage the system and make it fun for people. And would force the need to have an "original deck" thing i mentioned earlier. Also all players would be kind of on equal footings so more people could participate.

Frankly I love the thought of it, especially since I believed from the start that with proper nurturing this game could be the next League of legends complete with LCS. I have other thoughts and ideas too but, they'll come to me in time.
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Offline Klassick

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2016, 06:12:10 PM »
Hummm...

Is this guy doing it for free? Really?

IW Staff, hire this guy! Do it now!


Offline MerliniX

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2016, 07:14:28 PM »
For any tournaments with substantial prizes I strongly disagree with arbitrarily limiting cards based on rarity. If we want to do a pauper tournament that is a separate thing, but saying you can have a max of one Legendary or 2 Epics or w/e vastly limits deck building options and leaves a really foul taste in my mouth whenever it happens.

Likewise banning cards. Everyone in the community has their own opinions on what cards are 'OP' and what ones are not, but objectively speaking the game is in a more balanced state than it ever has been - and trying to ban or limit the format will actually cause the format to be more unbalanced than if it were left alone.

Offline Wayfinder1026

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 07:47:46 PM »
For any tournaments with substantial prizes I strongly disagree with arbitrarily limiting cards based on rarity. If we want to do a pauper tournament that is a separate thing, but saying you can have a max of one Legendary or 2 Epics or w/e vastly limits deck building options and leaves a really foul taste in my mouth whenever it happens.

Likewise banning cards. Everyone in the community has their own opinions on what cards are 'OP' and what ones are not, but objectively speaking the game is in a more balanced state than it ever has been - and trying to ban or limit the format will actually cause the format to be more unbalanced than if it were left alone.

All tournaments usually have some basic rules and guidelines. I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with the rarity issue, and banning issue. Taking away from the pool of available cards limits everyone. And players that don't have those cards aren't affected anyway. So it's not really making it less balanced, it's just putting everyone in sort of the same position so every starts at "0" sort to speak.
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Offline MerliniX

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 08:14:28 PM »
For any tournaments with substantial prizes I strongly disagree with arbitrarily limiting cards based on rarity. If we want to do a pauper tournament that is a separate thing, but saying you can have a max of one Legendary or 2 Epics or w/e vastly limits deck building options and leaves a really foul taste in my mouth whenever it happens.

Likewise banning cards. Everyone in the community has their own opinions on what cards are 'OP' and what ones are not, but objectively speaking the game is in a more balanced state than it ever has been - and trying to ban or limit the format will actually cause the format to be more unbalanced than if it were left alone.

All tournaments usually have some basic rules and guidelines. I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with the rarity issue, and banning issue. Taking away from the pool of available cards limits everyone. And players that don't have those cards aren't affected anyway. So it's not really making it less balanced, it's just putting everyone in sort of the same position so every starts at "0" sort to speak.

It is making it less balanced though. Cards exist in the game currently for a reason. For instance, Martyr Golem, a Legendary, is one of the very best counters to mill style AOE spam decks. Banning him from a format increases the power of those decks within that format and reduces the power of every other deck within the format. This is what balance means.

Any time any card is banned, removed, or limited, you cause a ripple effect across the entire format, and unless you have play tested the bans extensively (as the council did with Moose's Pauper Tourney bans) then you really have no idea what sort of format your bans will actually create, and if it will be a healthy one or not.

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 08:31:36 PM »
Bans are always suggested with the very best of intentions, and I do get why people think they are a good idea.

But let's take a look at the Pauper Tourney once more, where the bans were tested for hours by the members of the Council before they were rolled out.

In theory it was a very balanced format.

By week two of a four week event, a third of the players were using my deck, GI/WP/SOA Infested Hulkers. By week 3 half the field was using it. By week four there were only two decks being played - Infested Hulkers and Mill.

The reason was that despite the extensive testing of the bans those two decks both had something close to a 60% win rate against every other deck. Despite the best intentions behind the bans the format had grown stale after only three events, because only two decks were viable enough to compete.

Any time you ban or limit any card you risk doing this to a format. It may seem like you are putting everyone on an even playing field, but there are hyper competitive players like myself, who will sit there for hours and break the format you spent so much time crafting.

If everyone disagrees with me on this, it is fine of course, because I will be the one breaking the format and winning the events, but it will not be any more fun for anyone involved because Klore, or Calamity, or Mass Death was banned.

Offline Wayfinder1026

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 08:33:03 PM »
For any tournaments with substantial prizes I strongly disagree with arbitrarily limiting cards based on rarity. If we want to do a pauper tournament that is a separate thing, but saying you can have a max of one Legendary or 2 Epics or w/e vastly limits deck building options and leaves a really foul taste in my mouth whenever it happens.

Likewise banning cards. Everyone in the community has their own opinions on what cards are 'OP' and what ones are not, but objectively speaking the game is in a more balanced state than it ever has been - and trying to ban or limit the format will actually cause the format to be more unbalanced than if it were left alone.

All tournaments usually have some basic rules and guidelines. I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with the rarity issue, and banning issue. Taking away from the pool of available cards limits everyone. And players that don't have those cards aren't affected anyway. So it's not really making it less balanced, it's just putting everyone in sort of the same position so every starts at "0" sort to speak.

It is making it less balanced though. Cards exist in the game currently for a reason. For instance, Martyr Golem, a Legendary, is one of the very best counters to mill style AOE spam decks. Banning him from a format increases the power of those decks within that format and reduces the power of every other deck within the format. This is what balance means.

Any time any card is banned, removed, or limited, you cause a ripple effect across the entire format, and unless you have play tested the bans extensively (as the council did with Moose's Pauper Tourney bans) then you really have no idea what sort of format your bans will actually create, and if it will be a healthy one or not.

That's why I said to test it first with lesser rewards, and I said to limit the number, not remove them completely. You could still have a Martyr Golem in your deck.
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Offline DrewUniverse

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2016, 08:34:10 PM »
I would love to be involved in this. Although I would also want to participate so it's hard to decide...  :-\ :-\ :-\
You can do both, usually. Unless you're hosting and streaming the event, you'll be available to play without bias or advantage. There are several ways to maintain that. ^__^

Is this guy doing it for free? Really?

Yes. I do this for several games, including Interstellar Marines, Brawlhalla (soon), BlazeRush, Orbital Gear, and other quality titles on Steam. I run an event hosting organization, so casual and competitive events are necessary. I'm currently restructuring with strong branding and quality improvements in the streams on Twitch/YT. Would love to make a job out of it, but "People who have a need for it" and "People who can pay me to do it" rarely go in the same sentence.  It's one of my major talents, though, and while I tie it all together it's really driven by collaborators and participants all the same.

For any tournaments with substantial prizes I strongly disagree with arbitrarily limiting cards based on rarity. If we want to do a pauper tournament that is a separate thing, but saying you can have a max of one Legendary or 2 Epics or w/e vastly limits deck building options and leaves a really foul taste in my mouth whenever it happens.

Likewise banning cards. Everyone in the community has their own opinions on what cards are 'OP' and what ones are not, but objectively speaking the game is in a more balanced state than it ever has been - and trying to ban or limit the format will actually cause the format to be more unbalanced than if it were left alone.

I apologize if my message seemed to run together in one string, please allow me to clarify. I'm disinterested in random card limits for actual league play with the regional and international tournament proposals. I tried to explain that such things would be reserved to for-fun events that have no rhyme or reason by design. Also, if those tourneys prove unpopular, they can be canceled. So, to be clear on that I expect to treat the regular weekly tournaments and internationals to have no special rules apart from an occasional card ban for bug/imbalance reasons if/when such a card comes up.

To regard your example of limiting how many rares or epics, that's an interesting thought for my RNG set (thank you!), but I was thinking of a die that has one side with no bans, and one side each for banning either Commons, UC, Rare, Epic, or Legendary entirely. The entire library for that rarity level would be banned. Again, this would be for an RNG set for people who enjoy random challenge adjustments in an environment that is semi-chaotic by design. It's not designed for "real" tournament play or for league play/ladder points. For insight, I did make this up in my mind because I love RNG but it is also a sort of nod to the lore of the game: When rifts open, factions clash and chaos ensues with supernatural abilities and situations; left and right!With quick regard to your newer reply just now to Wayfinder on balance, I am interested in the same collective process before a given set of cards would be banned, nothing less.

As a final note on bans, I recall one of the last times I did a tournament here. I had no bans issued, and it was suggested to me that I make one or two bans IIRC, and should consult the community/meta veterans just in case. So, that's one reason I opened this up.


@Wayfinder
: I get where you're coming from, but both you and Merlin are right. Banning certain cards empowers other decks, as Merlinix alluded to. So some random players may receive a very mighty advantage while others don't. Keeping the card pool 99.9% open is key in regular ladder events. Also, I'll reply to your large post after lunch and some chores.


Offline MerliniX

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2016, 08:35:59 PM »
For any tournaments with substantial prizes I strongly disagree with arbitrarily limiting cards based on rarity. If we want to do a pauper tournament that is a separate thing, but saying you can have a max of one Legendary or 2 Epics or w/e vastly limits deck building options and leaves a really foul taste in my mouth whenever it happens.

Likewise banning cards. Everyone in the community has their own opinions on what cards are 'OP' and what ones are not, but objectively speaking the game is in a more balanced state than it ever has been - and trying to ban or limit the format will actually cause the format to be more unbalanced than if it were left alone.

All tournaments usually have some basic rules and guidelines. I respect your opinion but I have to disagree with the rarity issue, and banning issue. Taking away from the pool of available cards limits everyone. And players that don't have those cards aren't affected anyway. So it's not really making it less balanced, it's just putting everyone in sort of the same position so every starts at "0" sort to speak.

It is making it less balanced though. Cards exist in the game currently for a reason. For instance, Martyr Golem, a Legendary, is one of the very best counters to mill style AOE spam decks. Banning him from a format increases the power of those decks within that format and reduces the power of every other deck within the format. This is what balance means.

Any time any card is banned, removed, or limited, you cause a ripple effect across the entire format, and unless you have play tested the bans extensively (as the council did with Moose's Pauper Tourney bans) then you really have no idea what sort of format your bans will actually create, and if it will be a healthy one or not.

That's why I said to test it first with lesser rewards, and I said to limit the number, not remove them completely. You could still have a Martyr Golem in your deck.

Limiting the number does the same thing.

If I have a 55% win rate vs AoE spam with 3 Martyrs in deck, and it is a critical card in the matchup, then my win rate is likely 53% with 2 and 51% or lower with only one. We have gone from a solid enough win percentage that a deck is playable in a format, and moved it to coin flip status, which makes it extremely unlikely to be able to compete over multiple games in a tournament.

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2016, 08:40:46 PM »
I apologize if my message seemed to run together in one string, please allow me to clarify. I'm disinterested in random card limits for actual league play with the regional and international tournament proposals.

This seems perfectly reasonable to me. Limiting large bans to funsies formats seems fine, and a way for people to be creative.

Offline Wayfinder1026

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2016, 08:55:50 PM »


Limiting the number does the same thing.

If I have a 55% win rate vs AoE spam with 3 Martyrs in deck, and it is a critical card in the matchup, then my win rate is likely 53% with 2 and 51% or lower with only one. We have gone from a solid enough win percentage that a deck is playable in a format, and moved it to coin flip status, which makes it extremely unlikely to be able to compete over multiple games in a tournament.

That just means you would have to tweak your deck more to make up the extra couple of percent. It's not so bad right? :)
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Offline SwatAK

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2016, 11:55:44 PM »
u might wanna remove the commons from ur ban die.
u ban commons and its suddenly a veteran tourney.
also mass deaths are rare so if u would remove the rare too that would be great. ::)
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Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: Tournaments!
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2016, 02:43:17 AM »
Just ban Merlin, problem solved.  ;)

You could make the tourney one where you are forced to change faction purities/deck between each match. You may only use a certain Purity combination only once throughout the entire tournament.  :P
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