Author Topic: Is OOS healthy for the game?  (Read 13276 times)

Offline suli

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2015, 08:20:19 AM »
Hey Candit,

I dont know where I said that, but generally in forums I am of the opinion that nerfing both coyle and surprise defense was too harsh. Since, we have resurgence of triple oos with this set, pre nerf coyle would have been the ideal candidate for lance of jinhai, while surprise defense was an interesting deterrent of sort to flying.


Offline Benionin

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2015, 02:13:08 PM »
Anyways, any of the suggested changes would pretty much cripple OOS due to the small selection of viable cards. Maybe people want the Champion mechanic gone?

I think we all remember what the Overseers were like before they got Champions: play all of the cards together mindlessly, profit. At least now the deckbuilding requires skill even if the playstyle is semi-mindless flying rush.
Now, two sets ago you could easily say that the Overseers didn't have enough cards and nerfing their key ones would be too disastrous for the faction as a whole, but I dare say the Overseers have grown up and can't hide behind "I'm a new faction! Don't hurt me! I need more cards first!" The "small selection of cards" argument was one of the issues when the Champion mechanic came out (people hated it, mostly because there was no real benefit to running multiple champions aka not Sol), and has since resolved itself. So I don't think that's the real danger here for them.
Can you nerf the Forerunner of Champions or Champion's Companion and still have the Overseers survive? Probably. There would be doomsayers, of course (just like with Demon of Fear), but the faction would survive.
Forerunner of Champions can probably get the Aether Acolyte treatment: increase base stats, reduce buff (4/4 getting +2/+2 every time, for instance), or something similar (2/2 getting +2/+2 every time, perhaps)
Champion's Companion is tricky, because it's the mechanic that is so strong and not the stats. Given that you could nerf the Companion's stats into oblivion, but that may not have an actual effect on the real problem of just swapping out Champions to prevent them from dying to targeted removal. You could have the swapped out Champ remain on the field as a shadow-card (the visual you get during the planning phase anyway) that disappears after the ability phase--this shadowcard would be vulnerable to removal and would also destroy the version that had just been bounced to your hand. I actually don't think that'll work just from a programming perspective, but I'm not sure how to make Champion's Companion weaker without just nerfing all of the individual champions to assume that he's in play. Because that's no fun. Perhaps you should do as someone earlier suggested and make him a 4-drop, because that interferes with the curve (Lucca, Lilariah, Harahel, etc; 4-drops have a very competitive spot on the resource curve)
And maybe the Overseers don't need a nerf at all and this is just people complaining in what TheRealTuna has described as a "pretty healthy" meta. I don't know. Balance is complex, and boy is balancing things hard especially with so many moving pieces. Here is a fact, though:
If the "key" Overseers are nerfed or changed in any way, no matter how small, you will have people saying that they're complete garbage and won't see play anymore and gg (and no doubt a few will threaten to leave the game). And then life will go on and someone may come up with a new combo for the Overseers that is just as powerful as the current one but was getting crowded out by Forerunner/Tempus. Then people will complain about balancing, there will be forum posts much like this one, and the cycle of life and death will continue to crescendo-ing music as the screen zooms out and fades to black...
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Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2015, 02:35:05 PM »
Perhaps Champions' Companion should not allow Champions in hand to get Haste a turn after a Hasted Champion was played, similar to the Sages' and Hermit's exhaust, and/or make it squishier.

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2015, 05:33:53 PM »
No hasted champions are cool, the champions are not usable without haste.

And angels aren't mindless, the mirror match-up is super complex because it's one of the few match-ups that focuses on board presence and early damage is kind of irrelevant because if you win the board you win the game.

I think the only problem with angels is Forerunner, just change forerunner to "Forerunner has +3/+3 while a champion is deployed" and I think the faction will be much healthier.

Box to 2 resources is also a no brainier imo.

Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2015, 06:04:00 PM »
I think the problem is that the Forerunner's aren't in the Lightning Blast range, that's what makes them strong. I think JaJa's solution is too harsh. I would just make their base stats 1/1 and that would be the end of it.

Box needs to be 2 resources though.  ;D
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Offline Benionin

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2015, 06:10:48 PM »
No hasted champions are cool, the champions are not usable without haste.

See, this is why trying to balance things sucks. With haste and swapping stuff? Incredibly strong. Without it? Weak.

Also, I think I just have this reaction to refer to all rush as mindless, in spite of the fact that there's actually quite a bit of decision making that goes into a proper rush game.
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Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2015, 06:21:10 PM »
I think the problem is that the Forerunner's aren't in the Lightning Blast range, that's what makes them strong. I think JaJa's solution is too harsh. I would just make their base stats 1/1 and that would be the end of it.

Box needs to be 2 resources though.  ;D

1 resource 6/6 is too harsh lol, is the meta really that bad

See, this is why trying to balance things sucks. With haste and swapping stuff? Incredibly strong. Without it? Weak.

Also, I think I just have this reaction to refer to all rush as mindless, in spite of the fact that there's actually quite a bit of decision making that goes into a proper rush game.

Fair enough

Offline Rionoskae

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2015, 06:25:46 PM »
I 2nd the above fixes. I know this probably isn't the right place for it, but puffy it, we're half way there already - Let's fix the current state of OOS...

*Make forerunners base stats 1/1. OR - Simply make them gain +2/+2 whenever a champion is deployed.
*Mysterious box of wonders resource cost should at least be 2! (A re-usable CTA for 1 resource!? WTF?)
*Fix Turn Priority for Champions Herald's ability. IE her activated ability will resolve on the owners priority.

This is a qoute from Hitori regarding the resolution phase priority:
Quote
-Deployment of characters onto the battlefield.
-Battlefield maneuvering. Characters in the assault, defense, and support zone move around as planned by the player.
-Preemptive abilities take effect. This includes abilities such as 'Deflect'.
-Character entrance abilities take effect. This includes abilities such as 'When Lucca comes into play, all artificial creatures you currently control get +2/+2'.
-Character activated abilities AND ability cards take effect. The order in which players use those abilities determines the order in which they take effect. If a card that would make a character 'Untouchable' is cast before another ability is used on that character, the other ability will not take effect. This includes initiative as well as your personal casting order (so make sure to make a character Untouchable only once you used all other abilities you wish to be placed on it).
-Assault. The attack and defend phase, the player with initiative attacks first while the player without it defends first.

The way I'm reading this list, and assuming the above is correct, There is no reason Herald should get to skip the priority line. Blam! - OoS isn't broken anymore.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 09:21:13 PM by Rionoskae »

Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2015, 06:44:29 PM »
I think the problem is that the Forerunner's aren't in the Lightning Blast range, that's what makes them strong. I think JaJa's solution is too harsh. I would just make their base stats 1/1 and that would be the end of it.

Box needs to be 2 resources though.  ;D

1 resource 6/6 is too harsh lol, is the meta really that bad

People playing Overseers need another reason to bounce Champions. I don't think that the Champion Mechanic can survive with the basis that bouncing Champions is a fair usage of resources. The Champion Mechanic requires a person to use up resources, then basically sacrifice the resources played to use another Champion. It's not cost efficient, especially when the Champion's aren't way above the curve.
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Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2015, 07:23:26 PM »
I don't think it's that bad lol.

If there's 3 5/4 FD commanders, the two turn result in same dmg...with FD being 5/4s each...an angles being stronger and harder to get rid of

turn 1: 5 dmg
turn 2 15 dmg

Maybe have forerunners at 3/1 instead lol...I don't think dmg is the issue...it's the late game buff potential for forerunner due to the difficulty in getting rid of 6/6s early game because honestly guys, without the forerunner rush, the angels aren't actually that powerful.


Offline Hiding

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2015, 10:24:30 PM »
I feel like there should definitely be a card that can counter static deploy effects or at least postpone them. There would of course need to differentiate between on-deploy 1 time effects and static effects which I don't know how to do but maybe something like this:

Inertia
2 cost
neutral purity
Ability

For the next 3 turns:
All cards deployed this turn have their static ability text removed until the beginning of the next turn.


I feel like there are a lot of uncontrolled or uncontrollable static abilities that just happen suddenly. Making it on battlefield is somewhat a solution, but that also means it is extra vulnerable. Maybe change some of the text to "if this card is deployed and not exhausted"? This would make it so it would take an extra turn for the effect to happen and so there would be one turn to respond to it.

This is definitely something that needs to be solved. As card number increases there is no way to predict which of the many cards of similar cost they might have in hand and play this turn to suddenly effect the playing field. Sure this game relies on prediction but as the number of cards increases it's starting to look more like random luck. Other card games generally can get around this because they are consecutive turn based or allow for rapid response without having to guess. But with concurrent turns, you lose out a lot if you don't properly guess/predict the play.

There's two cards that prevent damage buffs:
- Ex the oppressor
- Oppress

*Dreams of temporal mass reality shift targeting all characters, not just your own*

'Ex the Oppressor' even overrides passive buffs like Bromich. It's a really cool card and no one plays it, probably because they gave a 5 cost character the stats of a 3 cost. IWs will learn how to make expensive characters one day.

yeah except those 2 only prevent one thing damage and Ex cannot be used to suddenly respond to an opponent's sudden buff, oppress lasts only 1 turn. This sort of thing can be said of every other predictive 1 turn ability. The risks of keeping them in the deck outweigh the benefits of using it to possibly counter an opponent's card.

Being unable to respond to immediate deploy effect cards until the turn after is going to be a major issue in the future.

Offline Candit

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2015, 02:43:02 AM »
Well Suli, a lot of people agree DOD Coyle was OP, and certainly the old Surprise defense was ridiculous. At least DOD got quite a few buffs and it's not like they didn't have tools to begin with such as the spirit and and a creature with reach. Lance is already the icing to the cake and it's enough to combo it with Infected Monk or Stalwart. They got perhaps the biggest versatility against OOS.

I still argue OOS's limitations are not much different than a couple of sets ago. I say they lost as many cards as they gained. Higher Calling is good (should be 2P of course), ditto fox box, wish is okay, Forerunner is good (not Tempus), Companion is good, and Cassial got a great buff.

IN CONTRAST...They pretty much lost Assistance (deserved but perhaps a cost of 4 would be good since it's like the zombie card now), Measures (WAY too nerfed), champions (Not only are their use restricted by the mechanic but most got nerfed to below the curve as well).

I've tested OOS without the forerunners and they can just not compete. Rather than just think of ways to make the faction useless, I think suggesting some buffs along with the debuffs would be better.
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Offline Benionin

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2015, 03:42:19 AM »
When was Heaven's Assistance nerfed? I mean, yeah, Precautionary Measures is currently garbage but still the only trouble I can think of with Heaven's Assistance is that it doesn't combo with Tempus. Otherwise I think it's a fine card.

I mean, yeah the champion mechanic was released with the caveat that it wouldn't really knock our socks off until it got support. The trouble is that with that support we're just losing our legs outright instead of just our socks. Like I said, it's hard to balance.

What sort of suggestions do you have to counteract the proposed changes that have been discussed so far? If we consider the meta to be healthy right now, we obviously don't want to make any drastic changes. But shifting the Overseer's power away from Forerunner and to something else may be a good idea.
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Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2015, 04:00:33 AM »
No hasted champions are cool, the champions are not usable without haste.

See, this is why trying to balance things sucks. With haste and swapping stuff? Incredibly strong. Without it? Weak.

Also, I think I just have this reaction to refer to all rush as mindless, in spite of the fact that there's actually quite a bit of decision making that goes into a proper rush game.

The thing is that most rush games are mindless because they tend to follow one playstyle/creed: hit the ground running. I have yet to play a card game where aggro decks were not absurdly powerful, yet easy to abuse; its the nature of this type strategy, and newcomers tend to gravitate towards aggro since the strategy is demonstrably simple.

Considering that a deck is built 100% aggro, then there isn't much flexibility other than throwing cards down. I guess one challenging part is knowing how to react to blockers and mass removals, but even then the options are not as numerous and comprehensive as those experienced using control, ramp, etc.

The Forerunner rushdown deck is arguably more mindless than a triple FD deck, with the bonus that it is definitely more sturdy and capable of lasting longer should key cards be countered. Of course, the support cards solidify the efficacious-ness of this strategy. I suggest nerfing Forerunner to

2 resources 1/1 "Gain +2/2 everytime a Champion is summoned."

Offline Benionin

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2015, 04:10:08 AM »
I suggest nerfing Forerunner to

2 resources 1/1 "Gain +2/2 everytime a Champion is summoned."

That's a bit harsh to kill base stats, boost, and cost. Choose 1, choose 2, but smashing all 3 is in all likelihood not the solution.
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