Author Topic: Is OOS healthy for the game?  (Read 13837 times)

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Is OOS healthy for the game?
« on: August 02, 2015, 12:23:20 AM »
It's all I've seen on ladder today and people are constantly moaning about in chat.

Offline tomuchmayo

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2015, 01:26:51 AM »
i haven't seen much complaint about it nor played much 3oos. I actually want to play some of the meta rush decks etc. in rank with this rush control deck i made.

Offline TheRealTuna

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2015, 03:19:42 AM »
It's all I see in ranked as well. I think it could be a really interesting faction to play, but right now I feel that it is just too overbearing and requires too much specific deck modding to beat. It represents the same issue that I have with aggro decks in general, which is that the deck doesn't really need to accomodate for any matchup while being innately extremely efficient at what it does. This applies even more so to OoS aggro as opposed to FD rush because with OoS, you also need to include anti-flying.

My issues with 3p OoS one by one:

- Forerunners. 1 drops that scale at unthinkably fast rates. Too strong from the start of the game all the way to the end. Potential change -- change from +3/+3 to +2/+2

- Champion's Companion. Extremely limited counterplay. The same issue I have with Demon of Dark Bargain -- you can't do anything to prevent it from hitting play, and you can't remove it from play soon enough to negate its effect (in other words, it almost ALWAYS has 1 turn to do what it needs to do, which is typically all it needs). Potential change -- Change stats from 5/5 to 2/3, or maybe even 1/1. It doesn't deserve to be reasonably hardy in combat in addition to doing what it does. This + forerunners makes for extremely strong pressure that has few answers.

Champion's Herald, in my opinion, fulfills the role that Champ's Companion does but in more reasonable way. Stats are lower, ability can be prevented (in your initiative, or using a preemptive ability like CTA).

- Champ swapping + Untargetables. There's a significant difference between a highly impactful creature, and a highly impactful creature that you can never, ever target. I have no problem with Lilariah. I have no problem with Harahel. They are both highly reasonable creatures, and are fair cards. But being able to interchange Lilariah and Harahel with no drawback and no possibility of prevention (courtesy of Champ's Companion) doesn't make sense.

- Higher Calling / Box of Wonders -- Can't imagine why these are single purity and as strong as they are, but these are just stupidly strong individually and I dont really have as much of a gripe with these cards as I do in the context of 3p overseer.



tldr;

The problem with 3p OoS is super scaling with forerunners and uncounterable champ swapping. Either nerf the scaling or nerf the uncounterability of champ swapping.

Also as a note, I have beaten 3p OoS with pretty much every deck variation there is, but I tend only to win these games if I am lucky enough for my opponent to not have a champ companion on turn 3. It doesn't make any sense for the card to be so definitive.


Yall hated shrine? Well guess what: drawing a Champ's Companion by Turn 3 feels like the equivalent of pulling a Shrine turn 1. It's just random luck with limited counterplay, which is EXACTLY what shrine was.

Please change something within OoS. Seeing 3p OoS constantly and winning or losing based on probability is just as bad as it was losing to an early shrine or an early noble. It's not fun, and is not interesting.

Offline jakinbandw

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2015, 03:20:35 AM »
well, when I started playing everyone told me to never play them because they were horrible. But I enjoy angelic factions and so I played them and did decent. Now apparently on ladder lots of people play them, but I don't play ladder so meh.

I suspect that they will get nerfed, and I will still play them. Because that's who I am. I will say that after last expansion we have a couple nice new tricks and options. It's good because I was getting bored of lack of card choice.

Offline tomuchmayo

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2015, 03:30:46 AM »
whats dumb is the fact you have to somehow make a deck that can handle rush which means being fast but somehow be sturdy enough to deal with CTD. Kinda hard to do that. I have more hate with CTD an verore than rush decks to be honest.

Offline TheRealTuna

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2015, 03:48:06 AM »
What saves the current meta is that, even though 3p OoS is boring and uninteresting is at least there is a somewhat interesting dynamic in the meta. Control is available in the form of CTD, rush is available in the form of FD variants and 3p OoS, and there are a bunch of mid range decks in between, such as 2p GI variants, 3p WP, etc.

I think the meta is pretty healthy right now overall -- definitely more healthy than it has ever been since I started playing -- but 3p OoS and CTD need to be addressed imo, as they are the most boring and uninteresting decks currently plaguing the game. But, as I said, at least there is some possible variety

Offline ORISOLVE

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2015, 04:28:33 AM »
Let's coin the term, "The Wealthy Noble Effect". Champion's Companion is another wealthy noble.

If any card falls under the "The Wealthy Noble Effect", the fix would be to increase its resource cost by 1.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 04:34:40 AM by ORISOLVE »
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Offline Rawonall

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2015, 12:24:01 PM »
Well, between raw speed, faster-than-priority character swapping, Cassial and Martyr Golem,  3 OOS decks make the game a hellish torture for mill players. So the short answer is yes, 3 OOS is very healthy for the game.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 01:59:32 PM by Rawonall »

Offline suli

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2015, 02:29:23 PM »
Well, between raw speed, faster-than-priority character swapping, Cassial and Martyr Golem.

Seriously?  Looks like the very recipe of a broken  faction from every angle you look at it.

Offline Terpitor

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2015, 04:03:01 PM »
Well, between raw speed, faster-than-priority character swapping, Cassial and Martyr Golem,  3 OOS decks make the game a hellish torture for mill players. So the short answer is yes, 3 OOS is very healthy for the game.
quoted for truth.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2015, 07:26:43 PM »
I complained about this when Oppression first dropped, and the general consensus was that the overly aggressive OOS was balanced, or at least not an issue. Foreunner, Tempus, Box of Wonders, and a few older angels, such as Azrael, have to be nerfed, because as it stands now, OOS is more effective at aggro than FD.

Offline Hiding

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2015, 09:23:49 PM »
I feel like there should definitely be a card that can counter static deploy effects or at least postpone them. There would of course need to differentiate between on-deploy 1 time effects and static effects which I don't know how to do but maybe something like this:

Inertia
2 cost
neutral purity
Ability

For the next 3 turns:
All cards deployed this turn have their static ability text removed until the beginning of the next turn.


I feel like there are a lot of uncontrolled or uncontrollable static abilities that just happen suddenly. Making it on battlefield is somewhat a solution, but that also means it is extra vulnerable. Maybe change some of the text to "if this card is deployed and not exhausted"? This would make it so it would take an extra turn for the effect to happen and so there would be one turn to respond to it.

This is definitely something that needs to be solved. As card number increases there is no way to predict which of the many cards of similar cost they might have in hand and play this turn to suddenly effect the playing field. Sure this game relies on prediction but as the number of cards increases it's starting to look more like random luck. Other card games generally can get around this because they are consecutive turn based or allow for rapid response without having to guess. But with concurrent turns, you lose out a lot if you don't properly guess/predict the play.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 09:28:54 PM by Hiding »

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2015, 04:20:53 PM »
OOS is healthy in a general sense...
The deck build of 3P OOS is a bit overbearing though...I use it myself to climb ranked and I'm not going to say it's a cake walk but it certainly wasn't difficult to make it to top 30 ;)

The inertia and flying makes it the best agro deck for continuous dmg to health. FD wins in net dmg output but easily blocked.

IMO, it's easier to deal with angel rush than FD rush due to predictability. The difference between the two is: Plenty of counters for FD but limited counters for flying :(

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2015, 08:29:08 PM »
I feel like there should definitely be a card that can counter static deploy effects or at least postpone them. There would of course need to differentiate between on-deploy 1 time effects and static effects which I don't know how to do but maybe something like this:

Inertia
2 cost
neutral purity
Ability

For the next 3 turns:
All cards deployed this turn have their static ability text removed until the beginning of the next turn.


I feel like there are a lot of uncontrolled or uncontrollable static abilities that just happen suddenly. Making it on battlefield is somewhat a solution, but that also means it is extra vulnerable. Maybe change some of the text to "if this card is deployed and not exhausted"? This would make it so it would take an extra turn for the effect to happen and so there would be one turn to respond to it.

This is definitely something that needs to be solved. As card number increases there is no way to predict which of the many cards of similar cost they might have in hand and play this turn to suddenly effect the playing field. Sure this game relies on prediction but as the number of cards increases it's starting to look more like random luck. Other card games generally can get around this because they are consecutive turn based or allow for rapid response without having to guess. But with concurrent turns, you lose out a lot if you don't properly guess/predict the play.

There's two cards that prevent damage buffs:
- Ex the oppressor
- Oppress

*Dreams of temporal mass reality shift targeting all characters, not just your own*

'Ex the Oppressor' even overrides passive buffs like Bromich. It's a really cool card and no one plays it, probably because they gave a 5 cost character the stats of a 3 cost. IWs will learn how to make expensive characters one day.


Offline Candit

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Re: Is OOS healthy for the game?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2015, 07:23:54 AM »
Suli, you wanted the DOD Coyle to stay as strong as before while the entire faction got a boost. Don't think that's reasonable myself. :P

Anyways, any of the suggested changes would pretty much cripple OOS due to the small selection of viable cards. Maybe people want the Champion mechanic gone?
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