Author Topic: Martyr Golem inquiry  (Read 1482 times)

Offline Ragnoraok

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Martyr Golem inquiry
« on: June 30, 2015, 03:21:00 AM »
I played against an opponent who had 2 Martyr Golems out. However, when one of hen's monster received damage, only one received damage, while the other did not. The card specifically says that Martyr Golem takes damage, therefore, both cards individually named Martyr Golem should have taken damage. In other words, only one of the card activated; the newer card took damage first, which makes even less sense. Why did the card resolve as though only Martyr Golem was on the field at a time, and the other was not?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:22:34 AM by Ragnoraok »

Offline tomuchmayo

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2015, 03:38:27 AM »
probably because the other got deployed first so it has priority

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2015, 03:50:34 AM »
I played against an opponent who had 2 Martyr Golems out. However, when one of hen's monster received damage, only one received damage, while the other did not. The card specifically says that Martyr Golem takes damage, therefore, both cards individually named Martyr Golem should have taken damage. In other words, only one of the card activated; the newer card took damage first, which makes even less sense. Why did the card resolve as though only Martyr Golem was on the field at a time, and the other was not?

The damage redirects to one martyr golem, and then the 2nd martyr golem procs and redirects the damage to itself. I guess the way martyr is coded is that it only takes the damage once and cant pass it onto another one in order to prevent infinite loops. Seems to be working as intended though.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2015, 03:53:25 AM »
I played against an opponent who had 2 Martyr Golems out. However, when one of hen's monster received damage, only one received damage, while the other did not. The card specifically says that Martyr Golem takes damage, therefore, both cards individually named Martyr Golem should have taken damage. In other words, only one of the card activated; the newer card took damage first, which makes even less sense. Why did the card resolve as though only Martyr Golem was on the field at a time, and the other was not?

The damage redirects to one martyr golem, and then the 2nd martyr golem procs and redirects the damage to itself. I guess the way martyr is coded is that it only takes the damage once and cant pass it onto another one in order to prevent infinite loops. Seems to be working as intended though.

That is not what I mean. Both cards are name Martyr Golem, by that logic, then the damage should keep on bouncing back indefinitely. The way it is worded, it makes no sense for one to take damage and the other to not. At the very least, it should be a unique character since thats a fairly abusable strategy.

Offline Abyss

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2015, 07:53:33 AM »
I *think* the game is set up so that redirected damage can't be redirected, to prevent infinite loops. Logically, if the game has a proper rules set, it's a fairly simple rule. Unfortunately, I'm not really sure if that exists, or is current/updated.

So I wouldn't say it's an issue with Martyr Golem itself, but not really a totally intuitive rule.


Offline Onyx

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2015, 08:28:55 AM »
Making it unique won't remove the issue entirely since you can still create situations where you have two uniques of the same character in play.

The wording on the card should be changed though, from:

"While Martyr Golem is deployed, all damage that would be dealt to a Character you control is redirected to Martyr Golem instead."

to something like:

"While Martyr Golem is deployed, all damage that would be dealt to a Character other than a Martyr Golem you control is redirected to Martyr Golem instead."

or perhaps:

"While Martyr Golem is deployed, all damage that would be dealt to a Character you control that does not have a "redirect damage ability" is redirected to Martyr Golem instead."

Offline Kevkas

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 11:56:20 AM »
I'm fairly certain deploying two Martyr Golems used to redirect damage to both at the same time at one point, I remember this because I was expecting only one to take damage at a time and that wasn't the case. They must have changed it, which I think it's the right call, otherwise what's the point on deploying two of them at the same time?

Offline Meadhlyn

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2015, 03:15:34 PM »
Hi I was that opponent and looking at it from a MTG point of view the wording is just fine and it's working like intended.

"While Martyr Golem is deployed, all damage that would be dealt to a Character you control is redirected to Martyr Golem instead."

Martyr Golem can be read here as "this card".

It would make no sense to be punished and receive double damage when you have two of them out (which you were suggesting), neither will the damage be split between them.

A simular card in MTG is "Empyrial Archangel" for example.



Here's some ruling that goes with it which can be applied in IW as well:

If you have two Empyrial Archangels in play you would only choose one of them for each instance of damage occurring, and you get to decide which one (419.1a; 419.6c; 419.9a).

The player receiving damage can actually chose which one takes the damage for each instance of damage so it's even better there. IW doesn't use a stack like MTG does and therefor I assume they chose to go with the last Martyr Golem deployed receiving the damage as first since that's what happened when I played against you.

I understand you got worked up about it when it happened because it's not what you expected to happen. For things like these we actually need a comprehensive rule book.

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2015, 03:44:42 PM »
Well considering that if they both took damage, then no one would deploy 2 at the same time. So deductively, it should be logical that any given player would only play 2 martyr golem knowing that only 1 would take the damage. However, I understand the confusion. It is a rare scenario in any case and we all know the sub-texts are not the clearest thing in IW haha. Just look at the new symbiote....I was originally really excited about playing Tibet from grave...to my surprise and defeat...it brings back a deadbeat 4/10 :(

Offline Rawonall

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2015, 06:05:38 PM »
Two things you must know if templates are handled like MTG's ones (and it definitely looks like they do):

First, whenever a card mentions its own name in its text box, what it really means is "This card" unless the name is preceded by "a" (E.g. "All damage is redirected to Martyr Golem" really means "All damage is redirected to this card" while "All damage is redirected to a Martyr Golem" means exactly that.)
Second, any "replacement" effect can be applied only once. So, if you have two MG out and damage is dealt, both "trigger", then the first one redirects all the damage to itself, then the second one does the same, but the first one doesn't trigger again because it'sstill the same event, resulting in the first one (and any other character) taking no damage at all.

Offline MakinoMane

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2015, 02:33:46 PM »
I personally feel that Martyr Golems should work like Mad Monks/Spontaneous combustion. If the unit is dead, any damage over the original amount that killed the first Martyr Golem would be redirected to the second one. If the damage was not enough to kill then it would get redirected to the other Martyr Golem. This is how I would expect it to play out if I were to play 2 Martyr Golems.

Offline Meadhlyn

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Re: Martyr Golem inquiry
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2015, 08:08:28 AM »
I personally feel that Martyr Golems should work like Mad Monks/Spontaneous combustion. If the unit is dead, any damage over the original amount that killed the first Martyr Golem would be redirected to the second one. If the damage was not enough to kill then it would get redirected to the other Martyr Golem. This is how I would expect it to play out if I were to play 2 Martyr Golems.

You are comparing an AOE effect like Mad Monk/Spontaneous combustion to a single target redirection. Damage is redirected from character A to Martyr Golem A. It doesn't check if Martyr Golem A died or not to then out of nowhere redirect the excess damage to Martyr Golem B.

By your logic I could say "I personally feel that any excess damage to a defending character should be redirected to the next defender in line".

The part in bold I don't even know what to think about because it makes no sense whatsoever ?

« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 08:12:45 AM by Meadhlyn »