Poll

Which set do you think was the best?

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Rise
Infestation
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Order
Oppression

Author Topic: Best set ever?  (Read 8213 times)

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #60 on: June 28, 2015, 10:38:26 PM »
Melosia + HA Tokens + Lingbao's Will allows for 1 huge swing, but thats honestly more of a problem with Lingbao's will breaking all interesting morale-based cards, and Heaven's Assistance being a pretty stupid token generator card.

Equilibrium is an excellent control card and is an example of some interesting mechanics we are seeing being introduced into Overseers, where they are very much a 'jack of all trades' aggro faction with decent battle control tools. When you say it ''makes no sense for Oversers to have this card'', may I ask what you are basing what ''Overseers should have'' on?

Also, Forerunner of the Champions is honestly a fine card, the command zone that takes advantage of it is highly beatable. The thing is that it might require some adjustments to existing deck lists in order to react, but I can list off many outs that factions have currently to this command zone. If a command zone is counterable, has interesting counterplay, and is overall interactive, then I think it is a good thing to have.

I will say that the mana curve for some factions could use some further fleshing out (WP and Exiles having few low drops, FD needing a bit more of a late game that isnt calamity or fear/ferocity combos, CoV needing a few more characters), but overall I think that the current game is evolved enough to where Tempus + Forerunner commands are fine. The deck is powerful, the deck is good, but it is a healthy deck, and it is balanced. I raised the same concerns back during beta testing of the set, I thought it's damage output was absolutely outrageous, but the tools oppression has introduce render it a lot less threatening. If you threw Tempus/Forerunner commands into Order's meta, it would be incredibly strong, but Tempus and Forerunner were not the only cards introduced this set. 3 DoD vs 3 OoS match up (which used to be hilariously in OoS favor) is now extremely interesting due to Gao Han Stalwart's popularity, Lance of Jinhai, and other interesting tools the faction has gotten, along with Overseers getting Equilibrium, which can definitely mess up a DoD player's day.

I think Oppression has introduced more soft counters, more interesting match ups, and is a lot more skill based then the last meta, and most older players agree with this assessment. The only exception to this is Counting the Days which nearly everyone hates with the blinding fury of 1000 suns.

But overall, the direction of Overseers is quite interesting with all the different utility cards it has. You can run Life Gain/Burn 2 Ex 1 OoS, you can run Burn 2 OoS/1Fd, 2 Fd/1 OoS, Aggro 2 Oos/1Cov, 1 OoS/2 Cov control, 2 DoD/1OoS defense, 2 OoS/1DoD morale decks, 2 OoS/1DoD defense decks, 3 OoS, 2 OoS/SoA, 2 Gi/1OoS Aggro, 2 OoS/1 Gi 'Bio Sol', all of which are of varying levels of power, and above all, many of them are extremely, extremely interesting and fun to play, and above all, fair.

Heaven's Assistence, Box of Wonder, and Higher Calling are honestly the only cards in the OoS purity which might need some adjustments, everything else is quite frankly balanced and fair.



Offline MakinoMane

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #61 on: June 28, 2015, 11:41:33 PM »
Also, Forerunner of the Champions is honestly a fine card, the command zone that takes advantage of it is highly beatable. The thing is that it might require some adjustments to existing deck lists in order to react, but I can list off many outs that factions have currently to this command zone. If a command zone is counterable, has interesting counterplay, and is overall interactive, then I think it is a good thing to have.

I used the most unusual counter to this command zone. It was a triple purity DoD deck with 3x Unified Defenders in Command and 3 in deck. With 4 of them on field, it was enough to counter the Forerunner of the Champions command zone/deck. Lance of Jinhai is probably the best card from Oppression in terms of helping a Faction fill a gap that was needed.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #62 on: June 29, 2015, 01:51:01 AM »
If you already have a swarm of creatures to attack (and lower morale) with, why would you need to win based on morale?

If an opponent manages to finally get rid of the angels, or at least manage it, the player can then use removals (Banish or any of the numerous removals from other factions) to destroy the opponent's high morale monsters to whittle away what remains of the morale of the opponent. The worse part is that one would not even have to commit to build a morale degradation deck.....they would just need to add 3 copies of Melosia (in case one perishes) and the standard removals. Its an easy contingency plan. Thats why I perceive it to be unbalanced.

Offline electro13

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #63 on: June 29, 2015, 02:17:09 AM »
I'm just gonna leave this here. Melosia costs 5. So you have to spend 5 resources setting up your win con of morale. The other deck that does that is CTD, which needs bonkers amounts of removal to stay alive while spending 5 on something like that.

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #64 on: June 29, 2015, 02:24:27 AM »
@Grinnin_Gin

You do bring up a lot of good points. I respect your opinion as you are a council member, and have aided me in some of my other admittedly rash rants.

However, I am adamant about Forerunner being toxic. My experience with Forerunner/Tempus is one in which a deck would have to build a control deck just to have a chance to stop it. I am not exaggerating, I have contacted 3 people abusing this strategy  inquiring how to stop it, and they have told me that the only decks to stop them involved those devoted to removals (interestingly enough Exiles came up a lot). One player even divulged that hen skyrocketed to the higher ranks using this strategy, but since that level is filled with stone cold control decks, hen has difficulty preceding further.

My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

In regards to Counting the Days, I fail to see the purpose of nerfing the card, other than making it a unique mission. Most of the complaints stem from it being used in conjunction with removals long despised for taking the "skill" out of the game: Combustion, Mad Monk, Yuanshi Wrath, etc. These cards prolong the match long enough to play CTD and automatically win. However, the truly ridiculous aspect of this strategy involves these AOE cards and the efficacious nature of their uses, not necessarily CTD. Without those cards, CTD is nothing more than a time limit, and probably wouldn't even get played until the DoD player had established a safe defense (around turn eight). Nerfing the card will still leave the true culprits in full vigor, and will undoubtedly be used later on in another strategy. I suggest dealing with the root of the CTD strategy, not the win condition.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 02:31:06 AM by Ragnoraok »

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2015, 02:27:59 AM »
I'm just gonna leave this here. Melosia costs 5. So you have to spend 5 resources setting up your win con of morale. The other deck that does that is CTD, which needs bonkers amounts of removal to stay alive while spending 5 on something like that.

To add to that, a player would really have to spend the last 4 turns setting it up, and then play Melosia to sneak in as much damage (fortress and morale) as possible, and then use removals/treading bodies to finish it the opponent off. Hell, the difference between a total aggro and combination aggro and morale degradation deck would literally be the addition of Melosia.

On the contrary, with Counting the Days, an opponent would have to completely devote the deck to stalling or removals, which like you mentioned is a huge investment.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 02:30:32 AM by Ragnoraok »

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2015, 02:51:41 PM »
My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

I disagree that Forrunner/Tempus is 'better' than FD aggro. I have beaten this 3oos deck multiple times with FD. The hardest part of the matchup is dealing damage in small enough increments that Azael doesn't come out. Other than that it seems fairly simple to me.

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2015, 06:25:37 PM »
My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

I disagree that Forrunner/Tempus is 'better' than FD aggro. I have beaten this 3oos deck multiple times with FD. The hardest part of the matchup is dealing damage in small enough increments that Azael doesn't come out. Other than that it seems fairly simple to me.

I don't think he meant better in a 1 vs 1. Just better at being aggressive. It does put on more pressure on turn 2, but it's main downfall is that it struggles to maintain tempo on turn 3.

The biggest card in FD vs OOS in my opinion is adaptive drone. Due to each decks inability to completely deal with each other, it is basically a race, with occasional value trades. The 10 health from adaptive drone can be game winning. I've personally found it to be quite even.

Offline toon310

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2015, 09:02:14 PM »
I couldn't read everything but i'd like to add something about CTD, something very important that most players didnt notice i think :

-----> CTD brings victory at...... 90% !!!! Indeed, if you manage to hold until 90% completion then loose your fortress at the end of the turn, it still gets completed to 100% at the end of the turn and grant you the draw ! It means that you need to stay alive 9 turns only (and not 10) to get the draw at worst.

I think this detail shows some lack in the work and in the card testing.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 09:05:22 PM by toon310 »

Offline electro13

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2015, 09:09:33 PM »
I couldn't read everything but i'd like to add something about CTD, something very important that most players didnt notice i think :

-----> CTD brings victory at...... 90% !!!! Indeed, if you manage to hold until 90% completion then loose your fortress at the end of the turn, it still gets completed to 100% at the end of the turn and grant you the draw ! It means that you need to stay alive 9 turns only (and not 10) to get the draw at worst.

I think this detail shows some lack in the work and in the card testing.

...Yes? I'm not sure I understand the complaint or why this shows lack of testing. The card states at the end of the turn Counting the Days becomes 10% more complete. So if during the turn it is at 90%, at the end it becomes 100% and you win right? Like that's how it works. Same with cards like Tyra. If your opponent is at less than 7 health and they kill you but then tyra goes off, the game is a tie. The game ends at the end of the turn where a player reached 0 health or 0 morale, or an alt wincon was fulfilled. If one of these things happens after the other but both before the turn ends, they both count.

Offline toon310

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2015, 09:48:29 PM »
It's simply a feeling i have on the card and a feeling i have about the whole set. Some stuff is... not right like the fact that CTD brings victory at 90%

i'm not disaproving the work of the council in anyway i simply wish to share the way i feel things.

you are right about tyra : it works in the same way. But she can die ! CTD cannot be countered !

another stuff that shows me that the set has a taste of "incomplete" (that's the word i would use to describe this set) : cowmando.... What the hell ? Why ? Why ? Why introducing such a card right now... It is not unlimited so it remains hard to build some sort of deck around it. It's the only factionless card of the set and i brings ... nothing. I don't get it.

another example : logrimathron. There isn't many cards that can allow a player to remove untouchable from a character or to target an untouchable character. Why aren't there more tools in the set to deal with it ?

@ grinin explain me how to deal with avatars when you have a 3p genesis deck and no anomaly in hand : you can't ! I remember once i had a genesis deck (3p) i was wining very easily then the guy put its avatars on turns 7 and 8 and they kept dying and fighting and dying and fighting. Guess what ? I lost !  i had nothing to deal with it. Brainlesss cards, brainless plays that relies on the hand of your opponent. If only avatars could get exhausted like Ao-shun  i would be happy about them !

i won't argue more about the angels who, according to me, received the best cards and the most crappy  easiest to use stuff (forerunner and box). But let's take a look on champion's companion : why ? why this card ??? There is already champion's herald to fulfill that role and who is really really nice ! This sounds weird !

« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 09:51:46 PM by toon310 »

Offline HeliosAFlame

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #71 on: June 29, 2015, 10:04:36 PM »
So just talking about 3 dod vs 3gi here. One thing is that if you run a 3purity deck not having answers is part of what you signed up for. Those decks inherently have stronger proactive plans but trade off being less flexible, so often you need to rely on just doing what you do better rather than direct counters.

against avatars once they start coming out if you don't have cta's the correct play is to stop attacking. Unless they have really sick reads they need to stay in defence anyway so you don't lose anything by not attacking, and it means you only need to roll over them once or twice rather than 4 or 5 times. With splitters or just making creatures bigger than 15/15 its not that hard to deal with them. You could also just get up to calamity to reset with their avatars gone if you prefer that style, or fly over them with scouting mission.

They key to playing agaisnt avatars is to not give them free value by just attacking into them every turn, that is where they are at their strongest.

Offline Captain Korea

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2015, 04:35:59 PM »
My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

I disagree that Forrunner/Tempus is 'better' than FD aggro. I have beaten this 3oos deck multiple times with FD. The hardest part of the matchup is dealing damage in small enough increments that Azael doesn't come out. Other than that it seems fairly simple to me.

First of all, as other people have pointed out it's not about the 1v1, it's about comparing the ability of the two decks to one another against similar opponents, and I think it's fairly plain to see that OoS Tempus+Forerunner(s) is currently in a better place than FD.

Now, I'm not just having a go at this one deck. I'm actually of the opinion that OoS are such a troublesome and often criticised faction because they don't have a deep identity that extends into game mechanics. Originally, they were an issue because their core mechanic was flying - and a faction that is based entirely around a single game mechanic is never going to be viable or particularly diverse (see: Exiles before demon aggro became viable).

In Oppression, to be honest with you, I'm not sure what they've meant to be. A jack-of-all-trades, maybe? If so, they should definitely have some tradeoffs for having more options open to them than say, FD, if they choose to rush. I also have serious issues with the strength of the FFO aggro that's at the top of most tier lists at the moment, but I'm not sure how that might be addressed. I'm not opposed to the concept of a jack-of-all-trades faction or a toolbox faction that adds options to another deck, but if either of those is what OoS is meant to be then they must absolutely be better defined that way, and balanced accordingly.

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2015, 06:16:32 PM »
I think it's fairly plain to see that OoS Tempus+Forerunner(s) is currently in a better place than FD.

If you're talking in terms of aggro, I don't think it is 'clearly better'.

Yes it has an amazing turn 2. But often it's super vulnerable on turn 3. The 6/6s trade poorly against a lot of things that can come out on turn 3 (Infected Monk, Buffed Accolytes, Ramp into Adaptive Hulkier etc.). Oversears don't have charge and the lack of charge defines a lot of how they play, because they can't afford to loose board presence. While FD has a tone of super good 2 cost chargers.

And then there's finishing moves which Oversears completely lack, compared to FD which has more options available than it can fit into a deck.

In terms of just stats, the fastest 3p OS can win is turn 5. The fastest 3p FD can win is turn 4.

I just don't see how you can justify 3p OS being "currently in a better place"

Offline Ragnoraok

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Re: Best set ever?
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2015, 07:40:24 PM »
I think it's fairly plain to see that OoS Tempus+Forerunner(s) is currently in a better place than FD.

If you're talking in terms of aggro, I don't think it is 'clearly better'.

Yes it has an amazing turn 2. But often it's super vulnerable on turn 3. The 6/6s trade poorly against a lot of things that can come out on turn 3 (Infected Monk, Buffed Accolytes, Ramp into Adaptive Hulkier etc.). Oversears don't have charge and the lack of charge defines a lot of how they play, because they can't afford to loose board presence. While FD has a tone of super good 2 cost chargers.

And then there's finishing moves which Oversears completely lack, compared to FD which has more options available than it can fit into a deck.

In terms of just stats, the fastest 3p OS can win is turn 5. The fastest 3p FD can win is turn 4.

I just don't see how you can justify 3p OS being "currently in a better place"

That is nowhere near a true representative of either faction at the moment. I have lost against 3p OS by turn 4 multiple times, and have not survived past turn 5 at all. I have NEVER....NEVER...NEVER lost against 3p FD, even when the matchup was clearly against me. FD typically wins by turn 7, maybe turn 5 if the draws are godlike. Either way, 3p FD are seldom seen for a reason....the deck has huge flaws. With Forerunner, Tempus, Cassiel, and a host of rather powerful angels and defensive spells like Banish, 3p OS can win by turn 4 on a consistent basis.