Author Topic: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace  (Read 2396 times)

Offline Rethorian

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An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« on: March 29, 2015, 11:27:33 AM »
I'm going to be looking over all the cards in Order, and judging them based on how good I feel they are. Overall I felt Order was a very weak set, and I want to point out the cards I think failed the most, and why. I'll be giving each card one of five judgements:

Quote
Borderline Overpowered - This card is extremely powerful. Basically, any buff to a card in this category would drive it into Overpowered status easily. I don't think powerful cards are a bad thing in card games, in the right circumstance, so being in this category is not a call to nerf it.

Excellent - This card is just straight up good at what it's designed to do. When compared to other similar cards, this one is overall better most of the time

Average - This card is average. Compared to other similar cards, it's nothing special. It may just be a niche card, or competing for a slot against a straight up better card.

Poor - This card... sucks. Whatever it does, is not justified by the opportunity cost.

Complete Garbage - A card that gains this title should never have left the design room. How it survived any longer than 5 seconds after anyone had seen the card's final form is a mystery left to the ages.

The 'Suggested Changes' section will contain possible changes based on two factors:
1. How much could you improve this card without making it overpowered (aka, how crap is it if you can double it's stats without making OP)
2. Are there any changes that will make the card overal more interesting to play/play against

None of the suggested changes are things I feel NEED to happen, just things that would be better if it was changed, at least in my opinion.

Today, we'll be going over the Overseers of Solace Order Cards. Let's begin!


Agent Cheryl, Last to Leave

Opinion:
It's a bad card. And an ugly one to boot.

It costs 4. Do you know the one thing overseers does not need more of, for the rest of eternity? More 4 cost cards. You will never play Cheryl, because if you have 4 resources, you have so many better things you can play instead.

How is Cheryl, when her effect does not trigger? Horrible. 4 Cost 8/8 Vanilla essentially. An on curve Vanilla 4 drop would be 10/10. And still useless compared to all the powerhouse 4 drops in the game. I would say 4 cost cards are the most efficient characters in the entire game. An 8/8 does not even enter the same league.

So I guess we judge the card based on her effect. How easy is this to trigger? Not very. You have to have NO other characters for this to trigger. No command zone, no support. And somehow, Cheryl is supposed to survive. If you have an empty board, then you have to choose between dumping your hand, or playing her alone so she'll trigger at the end of turn. It's never practical to trigger her.

The other thing to keep in mind is, that aside from Heaven's Assistance, Overseers don't have an easy time recovering from a complete board wipe. A 15/15 Flyer sounds cool, but is it really enough to get you back on your feet after you've lost EVERYTHING ELSE?

So you have a card that can't be played without it's effect triggering, and an effect that's almost impossible to trigger while playing a real opponent.

Useless.

Suggested Changes:
Cost down to 3. This is not negotiable. This card cannot be a 4 drop ever, if you want it to be played ever.

From a lore perspective, I always imagined that Cheryl essentially covered the retreat/cleaned up the mess after an Overseers operation. For that reason, I thought it would be cool if her effect was:

If you control no characters on your side of the field, Agent Cheryl is placed from your hand to the support zone, and gains Flying and +4/+4. Only one Agent Cheryl can be played this way per turn

So essentially Cheryl is an 8/8 beatstick for 3, that while not great isn't horrible. But if you ever completely lose your tempo to Calamity, or an all in Assault, she'd be a form of recovery for you.

Would probably need to be moved to 2 purity, and might possibly be OP with Flame Dawn rush or used as a combo with your own Calamity.

But I think it would be cool.

ALSO FIX THE ART.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Complete Garbage




Agent Coyle, Ascended

Opinion:
Not good enough. He costs 7. There is no way to get decent value out of him. 7 is just an insane cost, unless you get a big benefit. And you don't.

You get a 10/10 flyer. Overseers have a 7/7 Flyer for 3. An 8/8 Flyer that buffs all other angels you control for 4. A 12/8 Flyer that has Flame Strike 5, for 4. 10/10 is nothing.

So he kills anything that damages him. But lets be realistic. Anything that doesn't deal 10 damage to him, he probably could have killed with his own attack power anyway. If he suicides into something bigger, he's just a really bad death ray. 7 Cost card, for crappy death ray, that for the most part you can't pick the targets of.

And he turns into a dragon. 17 resources, for a 25/25 dragon. that kills anything that damages it. If 25 attack didn't kill it in the first place, somehow. Or you could just play Celestial Dragon for 10, which really has a better effect.

Suggested Changes:
Needs a better focus. If he's meant to be an offensive flyer, then being a 10/10 kamikaze angel is crap for 7 resources. If he's meant to defend, 10 health is pathetic.

7 cost is again, completely insane in this game. You need something worth 7 resources, and the loss of tempo caused by doing. This card would probably not even see play if it cost 4.

I'd just give him an entirely different effect. Aka, complete rework.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Complete Garbage




Ascending Swarmer

Opinion:
Cool effect. But he costs 5 resources. That really means that he's going to be useless outside the command zone. Swarmers operate mostly on tempo. They need to keep the offense up. By playing 5 resources on this, you're forgoing more swarmer bodies or powerhouses like the Brutal Swarmer. In return, you're still not going to have any real number of flyers for several more turns.

As a commander, his effect is interesting. Doesn't cost resources, so the only tempo you lose is holding 1 swarmer back. Well I guess you also force yourself into Overseer purity, and the loss of a command slot you could give to something else.

5/5 is also really on the low side.

I haven't seen the potential of an overseers Swarmers deck, but I imagine it's there. Guns, Higher Calling, and Cassial don't seem like bad choices. I am not a swarmer player, so i'm sure someone else will explain why the other faction synergies are better overall though.

Some of you are going to say that swarmers suck and that this card should be called crap. So my question to you is: How do you change this card to make swarmers not suck? Swarmers need fixes that exist outside this card. I'm judging this card on it's inherent design, and whether it could be playable in the future as swarmers get more tools. I am not judging it based on the current card pool. Why am I giving allowances that this card may get synergy in the future, as opposed to other cards i've panned that might be good with the right synergy in future sets?

Because the devs are supporting swarmers. Not very well, but they are. I fully expect more support as more sets come. If swarmers recieve no more cards, then I agree the card is trash, because swarmers are trash.

Suggested Changes:
5 cost seems excessive. Could probably be lower, unless design intent is to have this as a commander only card, like Aleta's.

The world would not end if this card got Flying. 5/5 Flyer for 5 resources. Probably won't break the meta. Probably... no promises though.

Stats could also probably be slighlty higher, especially if you choose not to decrease it's base cost.

Also, make swarmers not suck in general, so this card sucks less.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Poor




Celestial Dragon

Opinion:
Too slow. A problem inherent among all high cost cards. You give up an entire late game turn playing this card, which is a huge amount of potential tempo. Then you have to hope your opponent has no answers to it next turn. If he does, it will probably cost him less than 10 resources to deal with it.

Any game that does not reach turn 10 also makes this card useless. Very few decks in the game should be betting on their games lasting longer than 10 turns, especially with Calamity around. Overseers is not a faction that is patient. Overseers tend to be high tempo.

I will provide this anecdote though: I ran into an overseers player who had this in command, while playing my Hunted Dragon deck. I quickly dismissed him as a newbie, and assumed I would have an easy win. A number of misplays later (bad players are harder to read than good ones when it comes to Hunted Dragon mind games), turn 10 rocks around. Suddenly, I had a giant concern. If he hits with that dragon, he heals for 20. He does that more than once, and my deck will run out of steam. Lost because of more of my own stupid misplays at that point, but it made me respect the card a little more.

Potentially healing for 20 each turn is no joke.

Suggested Changes:
If you can lower the cost, you massively increase the chance of this seeing play. But big things that don't do things immediately are usually removal bait. I'm not really sure how you fix this, aside from somehow slowing down the tempo of the game to crawl, while simutaneously making control significantly weaker (because high tempo > Control, so low tempo = Control dominated).

The best dragon card in the game currently is Descension. And the reason is, that it costs 9 as opposed to the rest of the dragons 10 or higher, it can cost as little as 7. In addition, it has HASTE, and an extremely potent defensive effect (consume 3).

The biggest failing of dragon cards is they're too slow. The best dragon card is only the best because it has Haste, and a lower cost. Food for though.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Poor





Champion's Herald

Opinion:
Can't talk about this card, without talking about Champions. While I could talk about the Champion mechanic for a long time, I wont. Long story short, there is practically no reason to want to play multiple champions. The oppotunity cost of using them is just too high. If I have a 4 cost Champion, and I want to replace him with another 4 cost champion, I end up with 1 card in the end. If I had just played two normal 4 cost cards, I would have 2 cards instead of one.

So are Champion effects powerful enough to warrant switching more often than not? The answer is no. You pick 1 champion, you tend to stick with it.

Is this card good enough in a deck that only runs 1 champion, and for some reason does not run it in command? No.

This card is as good as the Champion Mechanic is. The Champion mechanic sucks, so this card sucks.

Suggested Changes:
Make Champions better. Give us a good reason to run multiple champions. This card is only as good as the Champion mechanic is.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Poor





Grounded Angel

Opinion:
A needed lower cost card for Overseers. Ascension flooded them with 4 cost cards. They need lower cost ones to fill the gaps. This card does that.

Nothing exceptional here. Mostly good because it fills the two drop spot for overseers, rather than being great on it's own.

Suggested Changes:
Seems fine as is.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Average




Jubalia, the Valiant

Opinion:
High cost useless card. Costs too much tempo, will never end up stealing it back. Untouchable Flyers are not what they used to be. Almost every deck in the game can deal with a 12/12 flying untouchable, if only by out-tempoing the card (aka Rushing before it kills you).

Art animation is completely wonky. It's like she doesn't have any bones in her body...

Suggested Changes:

Fix Animation.

I'm not sure there's a fix for this card that keeps it's design intent intact. The overseer 4 drops are better than this card. Sol is a better 5 drop. So you can't really decrease the cost, or increase it. You'd have to try a cost decrease and give her a When Deployed effect, so the loss of tempo can be minimised with something happening the turn you play her. That's my best guess.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Complete Garbage




Leader of the Charge

Opinion:
Not good enough. The 4 cost slot for overseers is just too competitive.

IF this card attacks the opponent fortress, it gains flying
IF this card attacks again,  it buffs all characters in the assault zone

Then you look at Lucca Ascended:

Starts with Flying
Instantly buffs all angels in all zones.

This card not only has to attack once to gain flying, it then has to attack twice more just to give the same buff effect as Lucca did. The resources required to make sure this card gets the clear shot to attack, and then not just be removal bait, are not worth a piddly +1/+1 per turn.

Suggested Changes:
It's too slow to be a 4 drop. I know i've said this about almost every overseer card so far but... lower the cost. As a 3 drop, it could be interesting from command, with the right stat adjustments.

Personal suggestion for the cool factor:

Whenever Leader of the Charge attacks the opponent's fortress, it gains +1/1 for ever character attacking behind it. Whenever Leader of the Charge attacks, all attacking characters gain +1/+1

Makes it sound like an actual leader of the charge.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Poor




Serennia, Champion of Life

Opinion:
Please Lightmare... no more 4 drops... please... I can't take anymore...

Read Champion's Herald review for explanation as to why champions suck.

That said, I like the idea of this card. I think it would be more interesting as a non-champion card though. The effect is probably too situational to main deck. You often need more tempo when you're playing cards, you don't need to slow yourself down to heal.

Suggested Changes:
Rework card as a non-champion. It should not cost 4.... please.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Poor




Striker of Solace

Opinion:
Flame Dawn Footman. Soldier of Fortune. These cards aren't run for a reason. This card is slightly better than those, because of Angel synergy. Token style cards are slightly better in overseers

But every good 1 drop in the game is liked, because it's powerful even later in the game. Even as a token, this is not a card you want to be drawing in the middle of the game, or late game. You simply want something better.

I'd can't imagine myself ever wanting this card over Cornicen.

Suggested Changes:
Give it something so it's not so useless the middle or the late game. Even something minor. Off the top of my head:

While this card is adjacent to two Angel characters, it gains Flying

It's not a massive effect, probably not even a good one, but it's something... and I think this card could use a little something

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Poor




Heavenly Wish

Opinion:
Really solid card. If you're running triple overseers, you're running 3 of these. I'm not sure there's much to say. All it's effects are extremely potent in the correct situations.

Suggested Changes:
None.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Excellent




Higher Calling

Opinion:
Great card. Just extremely powerful. If you're running 1 purity Overseers, you're running a few of these.

Perhaps a little too powerful. Flyers are hard to deal with on turn 4. 15/15 flyers a little bit moreso.

Possiblity of using it to stumbe opponents characters when they have more than 1 character of the same name out is cool too.

Suggested Changes:
May need a slight power reduction. Don't really know. Seems mostly fine at the moment, but i'm not sure there's sufficient counterplay in all decks when facing it.

Really, let someone figure out if it's a problem or not.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Borderline Overpowered




Purge the Unworthy

Opinion:
Don't know what to make of it. If you're ahead in the game, you probably don't need healing. If you're behind, you might just be hit for a ton of overkill. Anytime you don't need healing, it's taking a deck slot you could have used for something you can use right now.

Seems to be one of the cards devs made as self-balancing countermeasure for burn decks. And I see it working against those sorts of decks.

The trigger condition seems a little convoluted though. Overseers have mechanics for removing cards from the game... but that feels like more of a side effect of cards, than a goal you can attempt to achieve yourself through smart plays.

Suggested Changes:
Make the trigger more interesting. Removing cards is sort of boring and lame, and hard to work towards intentionally.

FINAL JUDGEMENT: Average




Are you looking for Gao Han, Champion of Warding / Aberion, Champion of Force / Ferocious Flyer? Sorry, but you'll find those cards in the DoD or Flame Dawn Order review threads.


And that concludes my The Overseers of Solace Order review. The final tally of all 13 cards stands at:

Borderline Overpowered - 1
Excellent -  1
Average - 2
Poor - 6
Complete Garbage - 3

I'm actually quite surprised I disliked the overseers cards in Order this much. Didn't realise I did till I completed this review.

Stay tuned, as I intend on completing all the factions when I find the time.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 11:46:20 AM by Rethorian »

Offline zekses

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2015, 01:27:31 PM »
Ascended coyle should have:
"while this card is deployed, any card that should go to the graveyard is removed from the game instead"

I know it sounds OP as puffy, but it's SEVEN COST card and legendary to boot. Also, this is not even on the level of hermit in terms of usefulness, so why the hell not?

I honestly don't see why some legendaries must suck so much because the devs are being too cautious when we have sol, hermit and immovable at the same time.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 01:38:47 PM by zekses »

Offline Rethorian

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2015, 01:38:25 PM »
Ascended coyle should have:
"while this card is deployed, any card that should go to the graveyard is removed from the game instead"

I know it sounds OP as puffy, but it's SEVEN COST card and legendary to boot. Also, this is not even on the level of hermit in terms of usefulness, so why the hell not?

Honestly? Almost none of my suggested changes should probably go live. While I disagree with Lightmare's decision to refrain from taking advantage of the digital aspect of the game to change cards retroactively to make them not suck, and instead of focus on making new cards, I have to respect their wishes.

Unless Lightmare has a change of heart, it's probably better for the long term health of the game to leave most of Order as is, and move on.

The suggested changes are just there to force you to think how much a card could get buffed... and still not be overpowered.


As to your suggestion, it seems sort of pointless. It obliterates sleepers, lacks synergy with Precautionary Measures, I guess it slows Oblivion, unless they have Annihilate (they always do...), but doesn't affect most decks in the game. Warpath wouldnt care, Genesis would not, DoD would not, Exiles would not, Flame Dawn certainly wouldnt.

Since it effectively doesn't do anything useful, you're still getting a 10/10 Flyer for 7. Bad deal still.

Offline zekses

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2015, 01:40:56 PM »
It's not so bad as you think.
1) it's MUCH more useful than what he has currently
2) this effect triggers immediately when he comes from hand, surprise stuff possible
3) it should harm any 'gather thoughts' reliant deck
4) It will help power Purge the Unworthy
5) if there are further "on card remove from the game"effects it will have synergy with them

I am not saying my proposal is that great, but it at least gives him some purpose
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 01:42:40 PM by zekses »

Offline Rethorian

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2015, 01:43:44 PM »
If I don't like things in the graveyard, i'm going to run Grave Rob. Even in Double Overseers purity decks, i'd run Grave Rob over a 7 cost 10/10 flyer that's only useful as long as he's alive.

Gather Thoughts decks tend to be control oriented... aka the exact same decks that can remove him from the field.

Offline zekses

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2015, 01:51:50 PM »
If lightmare insists on producing crappy legendary cards and never doing anything about retroactively I could only see it hurting them. Part of the 'new player experience' that's being talked about in the other post is getting 'legendary' cards like coyle ascended only for their joy be crushed by the reality of the 'lucky' booster card never being anywhere near useful

Offline JSlayerXero

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2015, 03:22:36 AM »
If Ascended didn't have flying I'd actually think of him more as an Anti-Undying card. While, yes, Heavenly Wish can pretty much nuke anything Ascended could, Ascended is also only double-purity into Overseers as opposed to triple Overseers. However, things I can seem him being used against include Avatar of Lingbao, should the two ever get into a fight somehow, Ao Shun, Avatar of Daode, unlikely as it may be, Titan of the New Word, maybe Hilderic (maybe), Zombie Abomination should that thing ever see the light of day, a few of the dragons, a colossal Hungry Abomination, maybe some others I can't think of.

I forget if Avatar of Daode is immune to remove from game, but I don't recall him being as such. I know Avatar of Lingbao isn't resistant to that.

He has a large cost and he's quite situational, definitely. However, I have this weird feeling that if they fleshed out this removed from the game mechanic they're going for, he can be useful in the near future. Admittedly, potential and current use are two different concepts and we're weighing the here and now. I kind of wish I had him, if only to have a reason to play Overseers again for the sake of experimenting. Yes, most of what I said is primarily theory. though I do recall him being quite annoying the few times I've had the misfortune of running into him.
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Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2015, 09:24:25 AM »
You didn't mention that the main purpose of Herald is to essentially give a Champion Haste, and at the same time lets you pay in installments, which can be helpful in certain situations like deploying Champions 1 turn before.

She is also quite hard to counter, especially for a Cost–1 due to having Flying and more than 4 health, personally I feel she deserves Average.

Offline Rethorian

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 09:50:47 AM »
You didn't mention that the main purpose of Herald is to essentially give a Champion Haste, and at the same time lets you pay in installments, which can be helpful in certain situations like deploying Champions 1 turn before.

She is also quite hard to counter, especially for a Cost–1 due to having Flying and more than 4 health, personally I feel she deserves Average.

I did, sort of.

Quote
Is this card good enough in a deck that only runs 1 champion, and for some reason does not run it in command? No.

If you're only running 1 champion, you probably have it in command, and hence don't need haste. I personally don't believe the ability to come one turn earlier is worth it more often than not, but I don't play enough overseers to make that call. If Champions were better, the effect would just be better.

One thing I did not mention was sniping Herald. On a turn with no priority, it's removal bait. I've killed my fair share of Heralds the turn the opponent wanted to use it.

I did consider giving it a better score, simply based on being a 1 cost 2/5 flyer. I think I just gave it poor score, because of the state of the Champion mechanic. But in normal overseer decks that don't use the champion mechanic, I don't see her used, so I question whether a 2/5 flyer is good enough.

It may need a second look for review. I'd upgrade it instantly to Average or Excellent, depending on how much Lightmare improves the champion mechanic, without any changes to this card.

Offline JSlayerXero

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2015, 04:41:22 AM »
So get this, Serennia procs on damage you deal period. I shot my own ramp with Banish and I gained 2 health from the ordeal. I unleashed the Winds of War and gains a LOT of health back. I added Dugg to the deck and oh boy. Strangely, when I added Martyr Golem to the mix, I seemed to actually heal more.

I highly doubt this is intended, but somebody has to try and make use of these cards nobody else does.
Despite preferring to go by Xero, it's not frequently the part of my name people latch on to. Oh well. I deal with it.

Offline Candit

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2015, 05:39:51 AM »
You are right, the Champ mechanic is just a bust. It is just a nerf tool more so than a way to add variety in gameplay. In order to make something playable you have to make use of cost vs reward.

Perhaps the champs need a small extra deploy effect added like the monarchs in Yugioh. Higher stats would also be a plus based on how inherently restrictive the mechanic is. Hell, the deploy mechanic would probably give Intervention some more use!
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Offline tropireno

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2015, 03:40:47 AM »
I think lowering the cost to switch out champions to maybe 1 or 2 and giving them haste when they switch in would make the champion mechanic much less terrible.

Idk, I think it would be fun constantly tag in and out guys with different effects.  And it would lead to interesting mindgames involving luring in removal.  Or maybe luring in some defenders against a Harahel-boosted army only to suddenly bring in Lillariah and give them flying.

Dunno if this would make it OP or not but it would make it worth using at least.

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2015, 12:02:50 AM »
Champions in hand should definitely swap zones with the champion in play.

But they also need really strong situational effects to make swapping them make any sense. If they swapped zones then the following effects could all make sense (all cards gain untouchable)(all cards gain flying)(all cards gain +3/+3)(Spawns tokens). A role for every situation and it needs to (somehow) come into effect the turn they're deployed. Battlefield effects with pseudo haste if you already have a champion in play seems the best to me.

And sol shouldn't be a champion, it's not good leadership to tell your army to chump block themselves to death while you solo the fun part.

Offline Hiding

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Re: An Order Review - The Overseers of Solace
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2015, 08:51:22 PM »
Jubilia is not COMPLETE garbage. She is very niche as a finisher. 1 purity overseer, 2 purity FD is currently pretty powerful largely due to higher calling being a thing. Have her in command gives you a way to finish opponents off that you get low. Generally FD can get ppl to 50 hp easily before they start to fall off. Send her out to hit for 24-30 damage then finish off with sacculas.

So I would rate her "poor" more than complete garbage she has SOME use.