Author Topic: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.  (Read 1615 times)

Offline tropireno

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Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« on: March 20, 2015, 03:42:40 AM »
I don't really understand why the differences in these cards are so big.  Orion's Grave seems worse than Untapped Wilderness in every way possible.

Single purity Untapped Wilderness vs double purity Orion's Grave.  While not a huge deal, it does limit deckbuilding a bit.

Unlike Untapped Wilderness, Orion's cannot reduce card costs to 0.  While also not a huge deal, I really have to wonder why Orion's Grave has this limitation in the first place.

The resource cost of playing Orion's vs no resource cost of Untapped Wilderness:  This makes playing Orion's Grave itself a bad choice against any artifact removal. 
This pretty much makes Orion's unplayable in ranked, as your opponent is likely going to side in some artifact hate for game 2 and getting Orion's Grave removed is pretty terrible.

So yeah, I really don't get why they're so different.

Offline Benionin

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2015, 04:20:09 AM »
Well, the Warpath does specialize in ramp, so it stands to reason that they're better at it than other factions.
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Offline goobypls

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2015, 04:44:21 AM »
Good point.

Untapped Wilderness is simply 'better' than Orion's Grave, because Untapped Wilderness is in Warpath, a faction that is designed almost entirely around ramping resources and playing big high cost characters. Every faction has it's unique strengths, Verore has cheap kill spells, Flame Dawn has fast attackers, Genesis has lots of utility, etc. If all factions had the same strengths the game would become very one sided. The only reason a faction like Genesis would need ramp, is to get Omnitron out and that's what Orion's Grave can help with.

Unlike Omnimind and Shield Generator, Orion's Grave is not a direct threat. Losing your Orion's Grave sounds bad, but it's very unlikely to happen because your opponent has only a very limited amount of artifact removal available and he sure is not gonna waste it on such a low priority target like Orion's Grave. If your opponent decides to use his removal on Orion's Grave, he made a poor decision, because he will not have any removal available anymore when you drop your Omnimind, etc.

Orion's Grave is not a bad card and most certainly not unplayable in ranked and even though the comparison you made with Untapped Wilderness makes the two cards look unbalanced or unfair, Orion's limitations are there to balance out both factions as a whole. ; )
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 04:50:48 AM by goobypls »

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2015, 05:19:21 AM »
I'd be surprised only if you said Orion's Grave is more efficient than Untapped Wilderness.

On top of what was said above, Orion's Grave being an Artifact helps Genesis with their Artifact–based bonuses, so the gap is closer than it seems.

Offline tropireno

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2015, 03:01:33 PM »
Well I'd argue that Orion's Grave is the perfect target for removal vs other artifacts, but maybe that's just me.  Any Omnimind, ect. can easily be replaced after being removed, but I'd be very reluctant to put another Orion's Grave down after an opponent removes it.

Also, I'm not necessarily talking about just running this in triple purity Genesis.  In double purity hybrid, there are little other artifacts you'd be running alongside this other than maybe War Machines.  And that's when you're probably better off siding Orion's out game 2.

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2015, 03:19:34 PM »
I would like to use a little math for a second.

Orion's Grave costs 3 resources and has a max resource penalty of 1. So right off the bat it effectively costs at least 4 resources.

In order for you to 'break even' on this card you need to play at least 4 cards with a cost reduction.

This is a little misleading though - because the max resource reduction effectively counts as one resource spent, every turn, for the rest of the game. In order to break even on Orion's Grave you need to incur enough additional advantage from using it to offset what is a rather large disadvantage.

Now let's examine when it comes into play. Turn 3. Turn 3 is typically a really big turn in this game. It is when Kali hits the board from FD, or cartographer from shrine. It is the turn that 4 drops can come out off the back of a wealthy noble. If you spend your turn 3 dropping Orion's Grave, while your opponent is dropping a high impact creature, you might be having some issues playing catch up the rest of the game.

Keep in mind also - Orion's Grave nets no actual benefit unless you play multiple cards per turn. With Grave or without Splitter still hits on turn 4, scouting mission on 5, and etc.

This isn't to say that Grave is a horribad card that should never be played - I am sure it can be quite potent in the correct deck, but at this time I would recommend against playing it as a rule of thumb because the risks associated outweigh the potential benefit.

Offline goobypls

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2015, 04:12:22 PM »
Orion's Grave makes Omnitron 2 resources cheaper. I don't play much Genesis, but I'm asuming it's some late game play in an Omnitron deck. On turn 10 you're capped out on resources, so by playing it on that turn, the resource loss would be made up for on the next turn anyway. It's an artifact that counts for 2 with an upside ability, so you don't have to to clog up your deck with many more artifacts, especially not the tier 3 ones. It's most certainly not the best artifact and like you said no where near as good as Untapped Wilderness, but it serves a different purpose and has it's uses.

There's very little reason to ever go 2 purity GI over 1GI or 3GI. So if you're gonna use it, you're gonna play it in a deck that plays Omnitron anyway, whether it's a dedicated Omnitron deck or an Artificial Tribal deck that uses Omnitron as something to side in or out in certain match-ups only. Orion's Grave is still not a necessary card in such a deck, since it can rely almost exclusively on Omnimind to bring out Omnitron at some point anyway.

Offline Interesting_Socks

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2015, 06:26:46 PM »
And yet Orions Grave sees play and Untapped does not. (In the top 10, in my experience anyway).

IW's Logic: "Lets make a ramp faction and then give them no good cards to ramp to. These characters will be just as vulnerable to removal because stats are the only thing that's important"

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2015, 11:37:39 PM »
If you can play omnimind and orion's grave, you will easily be able to dump all of your artificials from your hand because of the combined cost reduction. In practice I don't know how useful this really is, but it should be reasonably good.

Offline Abyss

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2015, 01:34:25 AM »
Untapped Wilderness is a location, which means you can't have out any other locations. Orion's Grave is an Artifact, so doesn't conflict with other cards.

I know that right now that doesn't really mean much, because generally most decks have one location that is obviously better than anything else. But that's a card pool/design issue. Locations, generally speaking, *should* be a little bit better, due to that restriction.

Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Orion's Grave vs Untapped Wilderness.
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2015, 09:14:22 PM »
I was going to mention exactly what Abyss said. Being a location means that it's the only card you're likely to play (unless for some reason you decide to have a second location for a surprise factor in certain situations). As an artifact, it has no restrictions, and you can still have a location in play as well.

Also, Warpath doesn't have many artifacts, and the ones it does have are too restrictive or not useful enough to warrant running them. Granted, they are the best faction for artifact hate, so I guess it's understandable. Heck, I could even see running the Ancient Aether and then using Wreckful Walrus to destroy it so you can play abilities without issue while also buffing your Walrus. Shame that hasn't been incorperated into a deck much, but then midgame decks seem to be struggling a lot recently. :/
Just so you guys know, if you're ever vs WWK, just start putting out random numbers and mathematical symbols, he will surrender.