Author Topic: How do you deal with Noble Protector  (Read 3760 times)

Offline MerliniX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2015, 12:40:24 PM »
Noble Protector shouldn't be able to protect himself . Because he's a protector , not a cowardy,AoE damage immunity aura granter that hide behind his troop all the time . Slow decks that rely on AoE damaging abilities would be already dead by the time they get Called Shot/Assassination , and that's not because the opponent outplay them, it's just because there's a guy that starts the game on the command zone that destroy the entire strategy .

Changing the ability to not protect himself will almost certainly make him useless though. His entire Point is that he is the Counter to the AoE type decks that Flame Dawn would normally get killed by.

It may be more interesting to make it so that he lowers all non-combat damage by a certain amount or something like that? Instead of just nerfing him into uselessnes.

I strongly disagree with this notion that 'he would be useless' without the ability to protect himself. Let's say we just straight up removed the part of his ability where he protects himself and change nothing about the card. Your opponent now needs to play three (3!) Yuanshi's Wrath in a single turn to gain the effect of one. They need to play two (2!) Lightning Blast on the Noble Protector, BEFORE they can kill whatever card it is they actually want to kill.

I am primarily a Flame Dawn player, and if Noble Protector did not protect himself I would still play him as a three of in all of my decks at the highest echelon of play in this game.

Offline Adorabear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2015, 01:16:45 PM »
Its not so much that noble protector not protecting himself would make him useless its more that then players are actually encouraged to play MORE aoe. Now you gotta play so much aoe that you kill the protectors and the rest as well. That sort of aoe stacking thing is something we dont wanna see and something that noble was supposed to stop.
Goose got me loose!

Offline HeliosAFlame

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2015, 03:25:59 PM »
I am not sure that is an issue dorby, you physically can't play enough aoe in your deck or in a turn to make that happen, especially since combust and mad monk would not priority target him so prob only deal 2-3 dmg while he is out.

Atm we have lightning storm and yuanshi's wrath as the 2 big sweepers he is probably negating. As merlin said to overpower him with just yuanshi's wraths takes 3, this is all the wraths in your deck + 9 mana. If you do it over multiple turns then protector has already bought you extra attacks as well as trading 2 for 1 and 6 mana for 2.

With lightning storms this would take 10 mana and at least 3 cards to hit the rest of your board on top of a correct prediction. Again you could do this over 2 turns but then they have already smacked you in the face while you spent a turn storming just a noble and for the turn afterwards they are playing knowing noble is dead.

yes if people could just play 20 yuanshi's wraths in their deck maybe noble would just get over powered as a 4/5 that could not defend itself, but with the current card pool this isn't feasible at all.

wham

  • Guest
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2015, 07:30:26 PM »
Overcharged storm wouldn't even work against noble protector that doesn't protect itself, because the damage gets dealt all at once, not in chunks of four.

Offline HeliosAFlame

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2015, 07:46:17 PM »
that is why you need 10 mana Wham.

overcharge 1 on the first storm then 5 more mana for the second :)

Offline Adorabear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2430
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2015, 11:32:17 PM »
You guys are using the most inefficient ways possible to take out noble with damage lol. You dont have to play 3 yuanshis to kill noble and some other stuff. Aoe decks have tons more tools than that. Mad monk could easily take noble out in 1 shot especially early and the same with combust, lightning bolt and heat wave, fire bolt, winds of war takes him out in 1 shot, etc etc. Nobles are usually played in command but they can quickly be whittled down by very cheap spells early leaving the player unprotected for mass aoe in the mid game.

Not only that but by having nobles able to be defeated by piling on MORE direct damage spells it means that even if noble is still able to 'buy an extra turn' decks that do not run noble are going to be screwed and have a miserable time against extreme aoe stacking decks. Noble is great because it helps to counter decks that rely on aoe spam right out of the meta so that other decks dont have to suffer the pain that was 'mill meta'.
Goose got me loose!

Offline HeliosAFlame

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 377
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2015, 12:09:48 AM »
Combust and mad monk won't target noble specifically, they are very unlikely to kill in one go. Mad monk deals dmg in packages of 3 iirc so if they have 4 creatures out he can never one shot noble, if they have 3 creatures he has only a 33% chance. Combust is similar though its way more random so I can't give numbers.

The only reliable cards that 1 shot him with dmg that I can think of are channeled bolt and winds of war. Buying a turn against winds is huge especially when you are using a slot in their deck designated as a sweeper instead for inefficient single target removal.

This leaves channeled bolt as the only reasonable way of dealing with a 4/5 noble with damage and that still costs 2 cards and equal mana.

3cov had problems with fd decks back when they could play 3 warped swarmers and before noble existed. Noble still destroys yuanshi's wraths mad monks and combustions.

I don't buy the idea that making him not protect himself would bring back either of these decks as an anti creature part of the meta.

For the record I was using those inefficient methods because those are what it takes if you just want aoe in your deck. For example 3dod only has access to 3 storms to deal with noble protector unless you are maindecking humble.


Offline Equastro

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2015, 10:01:32 AM »
So many options to counter them.

Not all of these are great because they can be quite resource intensive and some of these cards should not really be in any deck in the first place. Other cards can only be played when noble protector is on the battlefield. I think you can figure out the best cards / card combos suitable for your deck(s).


Factionless:
Assassinate
Called shot
Shikhana
Zuza
Calamity
Singular combat
Ethereal fusion (+ great positioning)


Warpath:
Fight - 2nd best option after humble imo (doesn't work in CZ)
Hunt
Coyle, primal hunter + great positioning
Granthar, elder ape
Taunt + killspell/character pairing


GI:
CTA
Jetpack + AA-Missile
Genetic splicing + ZOM-B Gone


FD:
Exhaust/stumble/burning prejudice (only if noble protector is a nuisance on the battlefield)
Bloodbath
Ireul (+ indestructible from fiery wish - if noble is hiding in support)


Dod:
Humble (best of all counters, imo)
Disarm + shifting stone


Sleepers:
Eaten by zombies
Evolving parasite
Patient Zero
Possibly poisoning cards (not sure if poisons work on protector)


Verore:
Death ray (+ word of command)
Void Split (+ word of command)
Perils of command
Mass death (+ word of command)
Annihilate
Verore kidnapper


Exiles:
Dehumanize
Demonize
Wholesale slaughter (+ a sacrifice to the RNG god)
Descent into madness
Demonic corruption
Mark of the demon x 2
Descension (haha, yeah)
The demon wastes (+ a sacrifice to the RNG god)


Overseers:
Heavenly wish


Dual purity:
Infest (+ word of command)


Cool/fun combos:
Word of command / Taunt + any on the battlefield kill / transform spells
Word of command / Taunt + Zuza
Undead corruption / Rampant virus + zom-b-gone
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 11:04:46 AM by Equastro »

Offline MerliniX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2015, 01:29:47 PM »
So many options to counter them.

Not all of these are great because they can be quite resource intensive and some of these cards should not really be in any deck in the first place. Other cards can only be played when noble protector is on the battlefield. I think you can figure out the best cards / card combos suitable for your deck(s).


Factionless:
Assassinate
Called shot
Shikhana
Zuza
Calamity
Singular combat
Ethereal fusion (+ great positioning)


Warpath:
Fight - 2nd best option after humble imo (doesn't work in CZ)
Hunt
Coyle, primal hunter + great positioning
Granthar, elder ape
Taunt + killspell/character pairing


GI:
CTA
Jetpack + AA-Missile
Genetic splicing + ZOM-B Gone


FD:
Exhaust/stumble/burning prejudice (only if noble protector is a nuisance on the battlefield)
Bloodbath
Ireul (+ indestructible from fiery wish - if noble is hiding in support)


Dod:
Humble (best of all counters, imo)
Disarm + shifting stone


Sleepers:
Eaten by zombies
Evolving parasite
Patient Zero
Possibly poisoning cards (not sure if poisons work on protector)


Verore:
Death ray (+ word of command)
Void Split (+ word of command)
Perils of command
Mass death (+ word of command)
Annihilate
Verore kidnapper


Exiles:
Dehumanize
Demonize
Wholesale slaughter (+ a sacrifice to the RNG god)
Descent into madness
Demonic corruption
Mark of the demon x 2
Descension (haha, yeah)
The demon wastes (+ a sacrifice to the RNG god)


Overseers:
Heavenly wish


Dual purity:
Infest (+ word of command)


Cool/fun combos:
Word of command / Taunt + any on the battlefield kill / transform spells
Word of command / Taunt + Zuza
Undead corruption / Rampant virus + zom-b-gone

Only two of these actually deal with Noble Protector in the support zone without putting you at a massive disadvantage. Humble, and Fight!. The others are massively disadvantageous for the player using them.

Offline Equastro

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2015, 02:34:15 PM »

Only two of these actually deal with Noble Protector in the support zone without putting you at a massive disadvantage. Humble, and Fight!. The others are massively disadvantageous for the player using them.

While I agree humble and fight are the best counters (which I mentioned in my post btw), I don't agree with your statement that the other options always put you at a massive disadvantage. This is purely situational imo. (But yeah, in general, it is hard to deal with a noble in the CZ and it can 'set you back' a turn.)

Offline MerliniX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2015, 04:25:20 PM »

Only two of these actually deal with Noble Protector in the support zone without putting you at a massive disadvantage. Humble, and Fight!. The others are massively disadvantageous for the player using them.

While I agree humble and fight are the best counters (which I mentioned in my post btw), I don't agree with your statement that the other options always put you at a massive disadvantage. This is purely situational imo. (But yeah, in general, it is hard to deal with a noble in the CZ and it can 'set you back' a turn.)

Well let's break them down one by one shall we?

Assassinate; Requires you to first run assassinate (a huge drawback by itself) and second USE an assassinate, costing you 6 resources up front, and if used on turn 6, a TEN resource disadvantage over the next 5 turns.

Called Shot; Requires running Called Shot. Requires you to accurately predict movement. And still nets you a 3 resource disadvantage.

Shikana; Requires Noble to be on the battlefield at the end of the turn you sac it. Probably too slow to actually do anything in the game itself since the nerf.

Zuza; Requires Noble to be on the battlefield. Costs 3 resources to play and 4 to activate, meaning it will cost 7 resources to steal a Noble IF the Noble is in a combat zone when you activate it. If played from command is inherently bad in constructed.

Calamity; Deals with Noble fine, but what does it matter? You just blew up the whole board anyway, non combat damage is kind of superfluous at this point.

Single Combat; If you are running this card in your deck you have already lost the game.

Etheral Fusion; Requires Noble to be on the battlefield. Honestly in any situation where this card will kill Noble your Character probably would have done the job anyway. Now you are out 5 resources.

Fight!; Great answer, no inherent disadvantage.

Hunt; requires playing Hunt. Hunt will not kill the Noble for two whole turns. Even still its a 3 resource net disadvantage.

Primal Hunter + Positioning; LoL. This guy straight up kills Noble anytime he gets into combat with it anyway. Don't see why you felt the need to list characters that would kill it in combat.

Granthar; Activate costs 6 and kills anything. 4 resource disadvantage if activated from command. Also costs 5 to play. 11 total resource cost to kill a 2 drop.

Taunt + Something; requires playing Taunt. Requires a minimum of 2 cards to destroy one.

CTA; notably dos not deal with protector. Must be combod with another ability same turn to take advantage of a very narrow window to actually deal damage. Also means you are not using the CTA on a larger threat.

Jetpack + AA Missile; 5 resources and 2 cards to kill one 2 drop.

Genetic Splicing + Zom B Gone; requires running both of these cards, which are both kind of garbage outside this one combo. I suppose zom b gone might be viable sideboard material so I will give you that. Does not kill Noble in support. Has the potential to lose 4 resources and 2 cards on a skill shot which may still not kill the Noble.

FD Stumble Effects; Do not kill Noble. Might work for a turn to get some removal off - but FD notable has 0 of these effects except for FD Commando, which would not work with these effects. Also does not kill Noble in support.

Bloodbath; Requires playing Bloodbath. Requires being in 3FD. As noted in 3FD you don't have any abilities Noble is blocking except for Commando and Firebolt/Winds of War (factionless).

Iruel/Fiery Wish; Requires playing both these cards. Requires 10 resources, requires 3p FD (see above), and requires the Noble to currently be in support.

Humble; Works fine, leaves the body but negates the effect. Reasonable counter.

Disarm + Shifting Stone; 2 card combo that costs 6.

Eaten by Zombies; Doesn't hit support. Costs 6.

Evolving Parasite; Doesn't hit support. Also see Primal Hunter for putting characters in combat with Noble.

Patient Zero; Also doesn't hit support. Costs 8 (Eight!). Has a chance to miss. Requires playing Patient Zero.

Poison Effects; These do kill Noble, or other cards through his effect - but they are all incredibly slow - the fastest of them takes 2 turns to kill the Noble (and also nets 1 resource loss).

Verore Abilities + Word of Command; the cheapest of these you have listed takes 2 cards and 5 resources, the most expensive takes 8.

Annihilate; Kills Noble at a 2 resource net loss.

Kidnapper; Costs 5, does not permanently deal with the Noble.

Dehumanize; Doesn't deal with support Noble, costs 5.

Demonize; Doesn't deal with support Noble.

Wholesale Slaughter; has as much chance to backfire as doing anything relevant.

Descent into Madness; Costs 4, also gives them a massive beater for a turn if they decided to attack or block with Noble that turn. Also requires playing Descent into Madness.

Demonic Corruption; Takes 3 turns to kill and meanwhile gives them a pretty sizeable beater.

Mark of the demon x2; 4 resources and 2 cards.

Descension; You can't be serious....

The Demon Wastes; Can't hit support. Might not kill Noble even if it does hit it. Requires plying The Demon Wastes.

Heavenly Wish; Costs 5. One of only a few removal options in 3oos - you can't afford to blow these on Nobles.

Infest + Word of Command; See Verore cards.

'Cool Combos'; all unfeasible and require multiple cards to deal with one Noble.

So, yeah. All of these are bad except Fight! and Humble.

wham

  • Guest
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2015, 04:55:37 PM »
If you can pull off an undead corruption + zom-b-gone, it would be better served on a target like bromich or kali, especially considering gi/soa has very little aoe

Offline MerliniX

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1398
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2015, 04:59:42 PM »
If you can pull off an undead corruption + zom-b-gone, it would be better served on a target like bromich or kali, especially considering gi/soa has very little aoe

This is generally true for most of these removal abilities - the only time you actually waste one on the Protector is if you have some other card you need to kill through a damage ability (like a paladin or some such).

Offline Equastro

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #28 on: April 13, 2015, 05:51:54 PM »
Hey Merlin, I think you misunderstood me.

I agree with pretty much the whole list you just typed. My first post was meant to show that there are tons of possible ways to deal with noble protector. However, I also explicitly mentioned that most ways can be quite resource intensive and lots of those cards should not even be in decks in the first place.

What I meant with my last post was more directed towards the situation on the board, not about trade-offs in building a competitive deck in regards to running certain cards yes or no.
For instance, if a player runs a deck with 1 purity DoD and he is up against some shrine deck with a protector and a lot of low-hp characters in the support zone, it might be very useful to use, for example, an assassinate to follow up with a yuanshi's wrath (or two). Whether to run assassinate in the first place is another discussion.

Offline Interesting_Socks

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 685
    • View Profile
Re: How do you deal with Noble Protector
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2015, 06:15:01 PM »
One of the things that Merlin's post highlights is the cost disadvantage of removing Noble. Introducing the concept that if Noble was a 10/10 4 cost, would it be more balanced?

Not that FD wants a 10/10 4 cost. But my point is that Noble has an ability that should be on an expensive character, not a 2 cost, no matter what the stats are.