Author Topic: Hit Tormented Thrall  (Read 2037 times)

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Hit Tormented Thrall
« on: January 11, 2015, 06:03:00 PM »
I've revised my reservation over hitting another verore commander. Thrall is - worse - than old Thunder Apprentice was in my honest opinion.

Offline Nehkrimah

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2015, 12:35:46 AM »
I agree, in my opinion, it shouldn't work on sacrifice.

It seems like a great fun card, if you have to use ability cards to kill it so mass death is great, winds of war, lightning bolt etc...

Offline Hiding

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2015, 08:21:19 PM »
Well sacrifice is the thing for thralls tho, I'd say just nerf the hp for brute cuz seriously the thing is supposed to be tormented, he shud be weaker and easier to kill.

Offline DarkenShroud

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 08:35:06 PM »
Your growing it at the loss of one of your own cards, that alone equalizes its power due to card advantage. It can be bolted 2nd turn (or first if your playing against cult), or with a wealthy noble can be removed by other cards second turn(4 dmg to all creatures anyone?). If your playing against removal, the sac effect can work against you bigtime. They can also force sac if they are running exile. Genesis has a 10/10 combo second turn for instance without giving up card advantage, no one says nerf that. Find ways to counter the cards, or maybe we should just nerf everything that is good in this game? *shakes head* To much complaining, not enough finding ways to counter stuff if you ask me.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 08:39:18 PM by DarkenShroud »

Offline Best Sakuya NA

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 09:16:52 PM »
As mostly a CoV3 and CoV2/x main (although to be fair I play pretty much everything at this point), Tormented Thrall likely needs a change. The trick is finding a way to keep it relevant, consistent, and not overly strong or weak situationally. Removing the sacrifice effect and only allowing it to work off of abilities means it will be terrible on a bad opening hand, and amazing on a good opening hand, which leaves it at a very inconsistent and hard to balance state.

A much easier, much more consistent way of leveling its current power would likely be lowering it to a 9/9, or 8/8 even. 8/8 would still be able to fight Kali, Bloodthirsty Dead, trade favorably with Flame Dawn Hound, still block and attack meaningfully versus very early Hermit Tokens, and so on. The issue is that right now, the two relevant 2 purity (and 3 purity) Verore command zones are centered around Rubble Golem and Tormented Thrall, and most of the other current 2 purity or greater Verore command zones are not particularly viable in comparison. Nerfing Tormented Thrall out of competitive play will simply make CoV3 Burn and CoV2/GI switch to Rubble Golem, which isn't a good solution if we're looking to give Verore more interesting command zones.

It is definitely a card that is the subject of a lot of debate at the upper level currently. Part of the issue can be summed up by explaining that it is that is is mostly on curve on turn 2 with other decks like 3GI, but due to its design and pacing in 3CoV and how many you can reliably run (2 in command, 3 in deck), on top of the fact that its effect can be triggered for no resources, creates an awkward situation. Early game, it trades with Infected Drone (And dies to Support Drone/Aleta Tinkerer combo), as neither can be played until turn 2. However, Mid and Late game, it is a 10/10 for 2 very consistently, which is very, very strong in Infinity Wars regardless of the faction in question.

Its current power helps to push one of the strongest purity combos in the game (CoV2/GI1) from top tier to questionably overpowered. It is autoinclude in all 2CoV decks currently and is a game changing draw in the early game. It allows you to play very aggressively with strong aggro characters as a faction that, as far as I understand it, is designed to be played as a more mid to late game Ability oriented faction. It definitely needs to be looked at, but the adjustments to the card need to be handled very carefully.

Offline Hiding

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2015, 01:33:31 AM »
Your growing it at the loss of one of your own cards, that alone equalizes its power due to card advantage. It can be bolted 2nd turn (or first if your playing against cult), or with a wealthy noble can be removed by other cards second turn(4 dmg to all creatures anyone?). If your playing against removal, the sac effect can work against you bigtime. They can also force sac if they are running exile. Genesis has a 10/10 combo second turn for instance without giving up card advantage, no one says nerf that. Find ways to counter the cards, or maybe we should just nerf everything that is good in this game? *shakes head* To much complaining, not enough finding ways to counter stuff if you ask me.

Except Genesis needs early game bodies in order to survive, Verore really doesnt as much. Genesis doesnt give up card advantage with Aleta, but everything that gets their 10/10 requires resources. Thrall on the other hand doesn't give up card advantage OR resources. Just use Rita to free sacrifice it. Run two in command with Rita and BAM 2 10/10's for 2 resource in your command end of turn 1.

Offline Best Sakuya NA

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2015, 02:43:21 PM »
Thought it over more. Easiest solutions are either restricting Tormented Thrall's ability to not proc on Character-based sacrifice (but still Ability-based sacrifice), or make it a character with 7 health when transformed (offensive power debatable, but likely close to 7).
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 03:09:53 PM by Best Sakuya NA »

Offline Stingeris

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 04:57:39 PM »
Current thrall is gamebreaking. No other faction exept for verore can remove 4/4 and only with priority. Start of turn two he is 10/10 allready. And Thralls user might have zaped your unit below 4 hp or played another 1 cost card(from splash).

He has to go below 1st damage treshold or on that treshold( that is 8 dmg or lower). Or dying to   your own ability card only affects him thus making him unable to be on board turn 2 to block anything game has to trow at you, or put pressure from supposedly weakest faction character wise that has most cost efficient card up untill turn 4.

Offline antideath

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 10:51:48 PM »
I see nothing wrong with the card as it is...It is a thrall..sacrificing is legit.
After the initial Wow factor i think most know how to deal with them mostly....it takes a great draw to just throw out 5 in a row..

Maybe u just cant have more then one in command slot Is all the balance needed?

but if he must change..
lets say he turns into a 9/9 Upon Sacrifice..
and returns from grave like the other thralls..in 3 turns.
(Rita's thrall is returned in 2 turns)


OR Each time he is sacrificed he gets 3+3? Returns in 2 turns...
so 4/4/> 7/7> 10/10 >13/13
So his Ability resets but he gets bigger each time..




Offline Benionin

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2015, 07:25:37 AM »
In terms of wording and game mechanics, I believe that Tormented Thrall should not proc on sacrifice, based off of previous distinctions between sacrificing and killing (this is also an issue on old Warped Swarmer, but the change obviously changed that). To put it one way, sacrifice can do away with Ao Shun, Avatar of Lingbao (if I remember correctly), and other cards that normally cannot die from such means. As those cards aren't supposed to die to "kill" effects, sacrifice taking them down promotes the distinction between sacrifice and kill. As such, Tormented Thrall, which says you need to kill it with your own ability, should not go off on sacrifice. Well, that's my interpretation anyway.
However, I'll concede having it go off on abilities that make you sacrifice. It's still an ability. But having a char effect (Summoner of the Deep, Demon of Gluttony, Rita, etc) set off his effect is, in my opinion, just plain wrong. I consider it a bug, plain and simple.
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Offline CubicBerserker

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Re: Hit Tormented Thrall
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 08:32:41 AM »
In terms of wording and game mechanics, I believe that Tormented Thrall should not proc on sacrifice, based off of previous distinctions between sacrificing and killing (this is also an issue on old Warped Swarmer, but the change obviously changed that). To put it one way, sacrifice can do away with Ao Shun, Avatar of Lingbao (if I remember correctly), and other cards that normally cannot die from such means. As those cards aren't supposed to die to "kill" effects, sacrifice taking them down promotes the distinction between sacrifice and kill. As such, Tormented Thrall, which says you need to kill it with your own ability, should not go off on sacrifice. Well, that's my interpretation anyway.
However, I'll concede having it go off on abilities that make you sacrifice. It's still an ability. But having a char effect (Summoner of the Deep, Demon of Gluttony, Rita, etc) set off his effect is, in my opinion, just plain wrong. I consider it a bug, plain and simple.

If you look carefully, you'll notice that the text on Tormented Thrall says "If Tormented Thrall would die by an ability you control".

A sacrificed character isn't killed, but it does die, so his behavior is consistent with his text. Other abilities that trigger of character death consistently trigger of sacrifice as well.

Of course that doesn't mean he's balanced or anything. Personally, considering the faction he's in and the combo potential with cards like Mass Death I think it would be ok to change "die" to "be killed" and make him no longer work with sacrifice. I'd say many people probably assumed this was how it worked when they first heard of this card.

I prefer this over adjustments in stats because I feel the problem is not only one of balance, but also of theme. Verore is not supposed to be a faction that puts early pressure with above curve characters. I therefor would prefer a solution which addresses the early pressure problem but leaves the Mass Death combo intact.