Author Topic: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?  (Read 4893 times)

Offline Benionin

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2015, 03:05:38 AM »
I agree with Gin on a great many of his points, and personally I enjoy the champions mechanic. Think about it this way:
Before, you put all of the best OS cards in your deck, spammed them onto the field, proverbially rolled your face across the keyboard, and won.
Now, you can make a bunch of different decks to maximize the different unique traits of the champions, STRATEGIC DIVERSITY, and actually think and therefore enjoy the game more (I maintain that mindlessly steamrolling is not as fun as a game well played).
If anything, I believe that the champion mechanic now makes champions more collectible, simply because you can now build decks around each of them instead of just having one deck that runs 3 copies of each alleged "top tier" champ and then doesn't have room for some of the quirkier ones (looking at you, Serennia and Kraos. I still don't get why people hate Kraos now). I mean, Serennia may not be all that collectible as a common card, but now you can actually build a deck around her instead of having this old "Angels get flying if I've been buffed to 10 health" Lil' Lil card that she used to be.
Before, decks that had a strong OS presence were extremely linear. Now, you can make choices when you deckbuild. Sure, it's not as easy as it used to be. Sure, some of the crazier things had their power toned down. But I think it's better now, now that you can have a Kraos deck, a Serennia deck (okay, that one's more of a Dugg deck), a Harahel deck, and so on.

On a side note, I prefer to think of the OS changes as being "lateral" as compared to "vertical" in nerf territory. Yes, Precautionary Measures no longer wins the game instantly if you didn't run into a Mass Death. No, I'm not sorry to see the change to it. Overall, I still think the Overseers are really powerful.
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Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2015, 05:58:36 AM »
I also have to side on the fact that the Champion mechanic made Overseers more interesting, rather than simply running all their good cards all at once. I mean, think about it. You get out Lilariah, Sol, throw down Kraos a few times and your opponent had few answers to all of them. You need to kill Lilariah or have everything fly over your defenses, but then you also have to kill Sol, twice, or he'll decimate your fortress, and if you don't have the kill cards for all of that, you also had to deal with your entire non-flying forces getting hit for 2 (or was it 4) damage periodically. Also, if you decided to simply storm their fortress while they attacked yours because you had nothing to block their fliers, then Azael comes out and simply undoes your efforts to try and eek out at least a draw (not to mention making it harder to deal with previously mentioned characters). The faction has a lot of internal synergies and buffs for your entire side, more than any other faction has. In a fashion, they are like a better, more cost efficient Swarmer faction with even more variety in what they can do.

The Champion mechanic made them much less oppressive and opened up more variety in how to build an Overseer deck. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, and I doubt any form of discussion can help you to see it that way. Still, there is Champion's Herald that can be used to alleviate the issue of having to wait two turns to use your champions, seeing as he swaps places with the champion and returns to your hand to use again and again (so long as he survives). That alone means that you CAN use multiple champions to swap out as needed. Sure you might lose some tempo as you spend resources without gaining board presence, but perhaps the effect you need will give you an even greater advantage than simply throwing out another body.

Out of curiousity, what was your deck like before the champion mechanic change? I'm curious to see what it was like and if it was pretty much the same as everyone else's or if it was actually unique.
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Offline Thechynd

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2015, 02:46:21 PM »
I'll agree with the hate for the champion mechanic. Overseers definitely needed something done to nerf them from their former level, but I feel the champion mechanic was a terrible way to go about it. While you can argue that it encourages players to build different decks around specific champions, I feel the truth is that most players are going to stick to using the "best" champions like Sol and Lilariah while the others see barely any use at all, even if they're stronger than most non-champion cards. People talk about Overseers decks lacking variety beforehand, but part of that is because they're the newest and smallest faction. Labelling several of their cards with a mechanic that says "don't use this in the same deck as any of these other overseer cards unless you want a load of dead draws" is just going to make that issue worse by further limiting the number of viable overseer cards available to people when deckbuilding.

Its also a mechanic that just doesn't have fun value, being purely negative. When Lightmare got rid of the Slow mechanic they said that part of why they'd done it was that they didn't want purely negative mechanic in the game, so I'm disappointed that they seem to have forgotten that lesson so quickly.

If they're determined to keep the champions mechanic then it really needs something more to both make it interesting and give it some kind of positive benefit that encourages people to do more than just have one champion in command and maybe include spares in their deck of the same one in case it dies. I've suggested in another topic that playing a champion from your hand should work similarly to Champion's Herald, with the new one taking the old one's place rather than being stuck in the support zone. This would still have the drawback of not letting you have them both in play at the same time, but it would also have a minor positive as it lets you effectively give haste to the replacement champion. Alternatively you could give them come into play abilities to reward bouncing them back to your hand, maybe even making it so the ability only triggers if it replaced another champion. Heck, instead of "when this comes into play" you could give them abilities saying "when this returns to your hand from play". Intervention might actually see some use!

What if it was one Champion per zone instead (command, support, attack, defend)?  Anything pushed to a zone with a Champ already there would get bounced, things pushed to a zone without a Champ concurrently (e.g. by Fear) all get bounced.  To go along with this change, make the Champs focus on local effects rather than global ones.

Alternatively this would be another decent solution as we've already got champions who want to be in a specific zone, though it might be awkward in the deployment phase as you try to move them around. Perhaps just make it so they can be in the same zone as one another but their abilities only work if they're the only champion in that zone (maybe the only unexhausted champion for those who want to stay in support so that they don't get deactivated by playing someone who's only useful elsewhere). You could even have them give additional benefits for each zone you have a commander in, actively encouraging players to try and get a different champion in every zone while still preventing the issue of how strong it would be to have all three of Sol, Harahel and Lilariah in assault.

Offline Memlok

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2015, 03:44:24 PM »
Quit reading when I saw OoS are useless.

Offline DarkenShroud

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2015, 06:29:53 PM »
No hate, or negative emotions towards the staff of course. They are all wonderful  ;D All the hate in the world for the champion mechanic however. Take it away, and just reword the cards. Unique is again enough without adding champion ontop of it. If you wish to stop people from searching uniques with recruitment and so on. Then you just change unique to stop people from recruiting uniques. I appreciate all the effort, you have one of thee best free games out their. I can't stress that enough!!!! Please remove the word champion from half of what its currently on, or remove champion altogether and just nerf the good old fashion way. Reword the cards to be less powerful, then at least we can play all our cards again, or at least have that option.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 06:32:28 PM by DarkenShroud »

Offline Best Sakuya NA

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2015, 07:22:00 PM »
The champion mechanic is spot on in terms of the ideas behind it. The implementation, and curve leave a bit to be desired. I was skeptical at first, but as Teremus has said many times, its not a matter of just adjusting stats to be more efficient. If you make everything too efficient at the get go, then the faction becomes too strong and stifles room for improvement. I asked Poga in the order reveal stream when the Champion mechanic was revealed something along the lines of 'if x cards leave something to be desired, will we see them be potentially reworked?' and he responded in the affirmative.

Yes, mostly that. Just nerfing the numbers would not have solved the problem, and it's depressing that people don't seem to get what the actual problem was. They were binary in design and offered very little room for counterplay if they ever got ahead in the meta, which happened as soon as other competitive decks were hit with straight nerfs. Hitting OS with that type of nerf directly after it was shown that type of nerf does not work would be extremely counterproductive. A redesign was in order (puns) and so we got a rework in the Champion mechanic, which will be reviewed in the near future.

Additionally, Heliosaflame and Merlinix, who last I checked were ranked 2 and 3 in constructed, just did a stream very recently involving making a 3OS deck, then going against players with it. Seemed like it was around Tier 2 or 1.5 territory, which is pretty solid, and about at where 3GI is right now. I'll likely be collaborating on that in the future. These things are happening, just gotta keep an eye out.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 07:24:27 PM by Best Sakuya NA »

Offline DarkenShroud

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2015, 07:59:36 PM »
The champion mechanic is spot on in terms of the ideas behind it. The implementation, and curve leave a bit to be desired. I was skeptical at first, but as Teremus has said many times, its not a matter of just adjusting stats to be more efficient. If you make everything too efficient at the get go, then the faction becomes too strong and stifles room for improvement. I asked Poga in the order reveal stream when the Champion mechanic was revealed something along the lines of 'if x cards leave something to be desired, will we see them be potentially reworked?' and he responded in the affirmative.

Yes, mostly that. Just nerfing the numbers would not have solved the problem, and it's depressing that people don't seem to get what the actual problem was. They were binary in design and offered very little room for counterplay if they ever got ahead in the meta, which happened as soon as other competitive decks were hit with straight nerfs. Hitting OS with that type of nerf directly after it was shown that type of nerf does not work would be extremely counterproductive. A redesign was in order (puns) and so we got a rework in the Champion mechanic, which will be reviewed in the near future.

Additionally, Heliosaflame and Merlinix, who last I checked were ranked 2 and 3 in constructed, just did a stream very recently involving making a 3OS deck, then going against players with it. Seemed like it was around Tier 2 or 1.5 territory, which is pretty solid, and about at where 3GI is right now. I'll likely be collaborating on that in the future. These things are happening, just gotta keep an eye out.


Nerfing the numbers would have been just fine, I still disagree. Nerfing the cards themselves would mean we could still use all of them if we choose. Now we are limited to one or two cards with the rest being unplayable wasting space in our collections. Theirs not enough cards in IW yet to make cards unplayable by adding a champion mechanic. Lilariah can simply say, your unique angels have flying when on the battlefield. No champion mechanic required. Hara can say all your angels / creatures have +1+1 for all I care, just take away the champion mechanic so I can use all my cards. Change angel of ruin !!!!!!! To say unique and it does 1 or 2 dmg to all their creatures on the battlefield when it hits the other players fortress. I don't care, just take away the champion mechanic and keep unique. Weakening cards / reworking cards over adding mechanics that limit our already limited choices of cards in the first place. This game is not big enough yet, to start taking away our choices of cards we can play in a deck. Which champions has done entirely. Love the staff, appreciate the time they put in 100 %, just don't think champions is the way to go until much later down the line when we have more choices of cards. When making something less effective, and we the players being able to play all our cards if we choose to in our decks would have been better. More options please even if less strong, not less ones. Thats a step in the wrong direction
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 08:04:28 PM by DarkenShroud »

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2015, 08:13:40 PM »
I collected several different premium versions of Champion of Ruin, and I was of course upset when suddenly there was no need to have any number of him in most decks, lol.

But its written quite clearly in the terms of service that they're allowed to change any card, for any reason, at any time, including things like rarity (we saw an example of this very recently with thunder apprentice being changed to an uncommon).

I got over the change because it was a needed change to the relatively absurd level of control it granted you late game.

Also, to those who say the champ mechanic limits your options, on the contrary it increases them. Your only 'option' before the Champion rework was to throw every single unique angel in the deck, because they were all so good. Now you have to think carefully and strategically about whos being put in what deck, allowing you room to experiment and play around with different win conditions.

Offline Thechynd

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2015, 09:32:51 PM »
Also, to those who say the champ mechanic limits your options, on the contrary it increases them. Your only 'option' before the Champion rework was to throw every single unique angel in the deck, because they were all so good. Now you have to think carefully and strategically about whos being put in what deck, allowing you room to experiment and play around with different win conditions.

As I said above, that's partly because the Overseers are the newest and smallest faction so they didn't have enough options for that many meaningful decisions. The release of additional cards with new sets could have changed that, with players choosing if they want to remove some of the old standards to make room for new goodness and if so what they'd rather lose out of stuff like harahel, lilariah and kraos. With the champion mechanic you pretty much just ditch all of them because sol is by far the most popular champion and there's now little point running any of the others in the same deck as him.

Offline Teremus

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2015, 09:42:23 PM »
1] This thread is no longer about collecting, nor do I see how it ever was to begin with.

2] This thread is completely focused around the champion mechanic, where there are numerous other threads available for that discussion.

3] I can't ever possibly agree with a sentiment that says there is no point in ever running any other Champion in your deck than Sol. That's just flat wrong, and I apologize for disagreeing so vehemently.

Perhaps, Kungen, you may want to actually read WHY changes happened, rather than simply looking at the changes for their face value and assuming some kind of slight against our players. Not only did we lay out why we made these kinds of changes through text and video, we also laid out our thoughts and plans for the future.

Thanks.
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Offline JSlayerXero

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2015, 10:14:51 PM »
The Champion mechanic is a mixed blessing in my opinion. Overseers are small, so they don't have many options to begin with. I've seen how well Champion's Herald makes a deck with more than one champion in it. The problem I then see is that it suddenly becomes an issue of a deck relying incredibly heavily on a single card, similarly to Pack Leader is some regards. Not sure where I was going with that... I have only one of her and my multiple champion decks often fall about without her. I've seen single champion decks that still work well. Just my experience though.

I don't build too much Overseers. I do, however, like having all the champions I do have for when I eventually decide to start making more decks with them. Before my one of biggest questions was "Lilariah or Auxiliary Angel for flying?" There wasn't too much more. I do appreciate more questions when deck building. Flame Dawn is usually more of a question for building the deck than playing for me. It's nice to see more deck options like this.

Overall I feel it's a mixed blessing, since it simultaneously cuts out including more than one of the Champions and opens more options for deck building and probably requires a different mindset than I'm used to. I like the concept, but the exact numbers left something to be desired.

Also, the beginning of this was supposedly asking about why make something not collectible then ranting about balance. When I bother to search for stuff I've even found myself trying to grab even useless cards for my collection just to say I have them. I'm not sure why changing the Overseers would make them any less collectible. The value of that collection may change, but it's still a collection.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 10:16:39 PM by JSlayerXero »
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Offline Kungen

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2015, 06:58:29 PM »
I'll agree with the hate for the champion mechanic. Overseers definitely needed something done to nerf them from their former level, but I feel the champion mechanic was a terrible way to go about it. While you can argue that it encourages players to build different decks around specific champions, I feel the truth is that most players are going to stick to using the "best" champions like Sol and Lilariah while the others see barely any use at all, even if they're stronger than most non-champion cards. People talk about Overseers decks lacking variety beforehand, but part of that is because they're the newest and smallest faction. Labelling several of their cards with a mechanic that says "don't use this in the same deck as any of these other overseer cards unless you want a load of dead draws" is just going to make that issue worse by further limiting the number of viable overseer cards available to people when deckbuilding.

Its also a mechanic that just doesn't have fun value, being purely negative. When Lightmare got rid of the Slow mechanic they said that part of why they'd done it was that they didn't want purely negative mechanic in the game, so I'm disappointed that they seem to have forgotten that lesson so quickly.

You sir are spot on and one of the few I've read to realize the pointlessness of COLLECTING champion cards in here. All what you said I agree with and you might have said it better than me too. No other faction(and this being the smallest one) have such a mechanic producing dead draws that are unthinkable to a efficient deck. Making COLLECTING and HAVING more then 1 or 2 champion types pointless. Why would you be interested in building a few subpar decks to use your different champion cursed cards.

Cheers
Kungen
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 07:03:41 PM by Kungen »

Offline kitsunexans

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2015, 10:30:58 PM »
The champion mechanic looks like it will force a very different deck building mentality.  with unique characters I tend to just put in 3 of each and go from there.  with champions I have to think about how likely i will need to replace one in play.  Also I have been crushed because someone swapped out a herald for a lilariah or virtue at the right moment.  that potential is currently unique to overseers.

Offline Poga

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2015, 11:37:02 PM »
Hello everyone! :D

Right away I'd like to say that I love all of this discussion surrounding the champion mechanic and its impacts on the Overseers and the game as a whole. I love nothing better than reading through posts and seeing how both sides of each discussion and thinking.

I'll let you guys all know that while we do like what we did with the champion mechanic in terms of direction and increased variety with a limited set of cards. We are also aware of power level concerns and are in the process of reviewing the Overseers, both their existing cards and the added support they will receive Oppression.

We are just back from our end of year holidays and are diving back into development. Expect more posts from myself as i endeavor to bring the community closer to development in terms of the whys and why-nots.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 12:07:53 AM by Poga »
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Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Why make a collectible card game not so collectible anymore?
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2015, 12:13:29 AM »
The cards in Overseers that currently have some power problems, in my estimation are:

Purge the Unworth, Serrenia, Kraos, Cassial, Gao Han Champ, Aberion Champ, Solace's Gate (on the other end of the spectrum, simply because of the way untouchable works at the moment), Agent Cheryl - Last to Leave, Intervention.

Some of these cards just have really odd ways of interacting with the faction, others have just stat problems mostly.