Author Topic: Order: my brief review  (Read 3443 times)

Offline Memlok

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2014, 08:04:34 AM »
Damn, I wasn't aware of the Thunder Apprentice change. Well, that knocks it off the top 5 list. OK, maybe it WAS too oppressive, but now it's basically useless. Or to be precise, it's now a snowball card- it'll only do anything if you can constantly keep killing your opponent's blockers (and they don't nuke it), in which case it'll make it EASIER to constantly keep killing your opponent's blockers.

This is such a massive nerf that I'm staggered the card made it to the original release in the state that it did. I'm starting to wonder whether Lightmare even PLAYTESTED any of these cards.

Is this a sarcastic reply to all the ones who cried that TA is not OP anymore and now requires though?

Offline Thechynd

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2014, 03:26:13 PM »
Problem with an auto swap of Champions would be they would be virtually untouchable. No targeted card effects could hit them.
Could possibly make it so that any effects targeting the original champion would automatically retarget the replacement. It would be a bit more complicated to program, but I feel an actually interesting mechanic would be far preferable to just saying "this faction's defining feature is that many of their cards are unplayably bad when put in the same deck." After all, the developers have admitted in the past that they feel keyword mechanics which are purely negative are a bad way to design a faction and that's why they got rid of the SoA's Slow mechanic.

The current implementation of Champions feels particularly annoying because some of the current champions don't really feel like they're strong enough to justify such a drawback in the first place. Harahel costs 1 less than Pack Leader but gets -4/-4 and you can't have more than one of him in play, while Irial's ability works similarly to Xi (who honors the dead) but produces basic 2/2s instead of flying 3/3s, can't be used from command, only counts angels and if played from your hand can't use anything that died earlier in the game.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 04:07:26 PM by Thechynd »

Offline Grinnin_Gin

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2014, 04:12:55 PM »
Yeah both the Xi are...honestly superior to Irial now that you mention it.

Offline CubicBerserker

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2014, 04:22:58 PM »
Could possibly make it so that any effects targeting the original champion would automatically retarget the replacement. It would be a bit more complicated to program, but I feel an actually interesting mechanic would be far preferable to just saying "this faction's defining feature is that many of their cards are unplayably bad when put in the same deck." Particularly when some of the current champions don't really feel like they're strong enough to justify such a drawback in the first place. Harahel costs 1 less than Pack Leader but gets -4/-4 and you can't have more than one of him in play, while Irial's ability works similarly to Xi (who honors the dead) but produces basic 2/2s instead of flying 3/3s, can't be used from command, only counts angels and if played from your hand can't use anything that died earlier in the game.

I wouldn't say that the champion mechanic is a bad idea by itself but I agree that the many of the current champions don't seem to justify the new restrictiveness. In the same way that unique characters should be stronger than non-unique characters I think champions should have more of an impact on the game than some of them currently do.

Another issue is that with champions being restricted to only one deployed at a time there aren't many interesting options left in their arsenal. The overseers got some new generic angels in this set but I think they really need more interesting cards to support and be supported by their champions. Champion's Herald shouldn't be the only non-champion that interacts with this mechanic.

I think for example that Cassial might have been more interesting as something like a guard for your champion. Something along the lines of "While Cassial is deployed, all damage dealt to a champion you control is redirected to Cassial instead" or perhaps even "While Cassial is deployed, if a deployed champion you control would be killed by a non-damage source, Cassial dies and that champion lives instead"

There's plenty of ways in which other angels could interact with the champion mechanic. You could have characters that get buffed while in the same zone as a champion or characters that give your champion a buff when deployed. It doesn't need to be limited to characters either, abilities, maybe even a location or artifact could be made to interact with the new champion mechanic.

I'm not sure if it's really such a good idea to have so much of a faction revolve around a strictly two purity mechanic but I think that if the champions don't get more support cards we'll be seeing overseers 3.0 in the next set. Overhauling the same faction twice would set a very bad precedent for future sets.

Offline Heaven-Canceler

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2014, 05:20:37 PM »
I think the Devs were worried that making the created angels bigger could create bullpuffy Levels of buffing, but with Harahel now as a Champion, the OS have lost a good deal of sharpness to their claws.

I do think the Champion mechanic is very interesting and getting more ways to use it would be good. Currently switching Champions and fun and all, but it is not only slow and hard to do, but it is also quite expensive. Even with the cost lowered by Herald, I still have Trouble making it work.

And there is also the single fact that with the new Champions, the OS are overfilled with 4-drops, since all but one Champion I have seen is a 4 Drop. In Addition there are Cards like Cheryl which makes me wonder what to do with them. OS aren't supposed to be alone. Kali and Lucca Ascended are also 4 Drops, same for Xi, Ascended with her crazy ability.

Also, although gaining a vanilla 2 drop with the recent hotfix, they lost their only vanilla 3 drop in Grounded Angel.

They got a great 5 cost Card in Heavenly Wish though.

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Offline Kevkas

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2014, 05:43:59 PM »
I do think the Champion mechanic is very interesting and getting more ways to use it would be good. Currently switching Champions and fun and all, but it is not only slow and hard to do, but it is also quite expensive. Even with the cost lowered by Herald, I still have Trouble making it work.

I've read all messages in this thread, and I think that sums up my take on the Champions mechanic pretty well. I like it the new mechanic, I think it's a good concept, but it could use some improvements in 'how' champions switching works, at the moment it has more drawbacks (slow, resource cost) than benefits (the champion's own abilities are the benefits, but some aren't enough to balance the lost in tempo).

I think the devs are on the right track with this mechanic, and I hope they take another look at it in the future, if it needs a little improvement, so be it.

Offline CubicBerserker

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2014, 06:17:12 PM »
I think the Devs were worried that making the created angels bigger could create bullpuffy Levels of buffing, but with Harahel now as a Champion, the OS have lost a good deal of sharpness to their claws.

I do think the Champion mechanic is very interesting and getting more ways to use it would be good. Currently switching Champions and fun and all, but it is not only slow and hard to do, but it is also quite expensive. Even with the cost lowered by Herald, I still have Trouble making it work.

And there is also the single fact that with the new Champions, the OS are overfilled with 4-drops, since all but one Champion I have seen is a 4 Drop. In Addition there are Cards like Cheryl which makes me wonder what to do with them. OS aren't supposed to be alone. Kali and Lucca Ascended are also 4 Drops, same for Xi, Ascended with her crazy ability.

Also, although gaining a vanilla 2 drop with the recent hotfix, they lost their only vanilla 3 drop in Grounded Angel.

They got a great 5 cost Card in Heavenly Wish though.

The overseers always had an issue with many good cards being 4 cost. They were just strong enough to make them work anyway. Now with the champion mechanic it becomes a much bigger problem.

I think many people, myself included, don't really know what to do with overseers now. Maybe it just needs more time though.

The change in grounded angel is probably for the better. We already had consecrating angel as a 3 cost 8/8 angel.

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2014, 02:23:35 AM »
Even with the cost lowered by Herald, I still have Trouble making it work.
Champion's Herald doesn't really reduce a Champion's cost, since overall you still pay the full amount for the Champion, and the temporary 2/2 Flying Angel body is mostly negligible. What it does do can be more accurately described as giving a Champion Haste.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 02:53:31 AM by CommunistMountain »

Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2014, 02:33:12 AM »
Giving it haste and, potentially, getting it out a turn earlier. If you play the Herald on turn 3, you can then play a 5 cost champion on turn 4 (and it's hasted). The Champion mechanic is still a bit more costly to maintain, but it does make the faction more interesting to play, and hopefully this will get ironed out to be effective again... possibly with more support cards.
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Offline Hiding

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2014, 02:47:14 AM »
The new Overseer mechanic was clearly not tested enough. Had it been given more time to be tested, i'm sure it could have launched in a much better state than it did.

I'll agree with the dislike for Champions. As a mechanic it simply seems to limit deckbuilding creativity in what's already the smallest faction by heavily discouraging the inclusion of multiple champions as they risk being a dead draw if you already have one out.

If they really wanted to go with a mechanic like this then I think it would have been much more interesting if playing a second champion caused it to properly take the place of the previous one by being deployed in the first champion's position rather than in the support zone. With Lilariah, Harahel, Serennia, Gao Han and Kraos all needing to be on the battlefield to use their abilities, this would allow you to actually take advantage of bouncing a weakened card back to your hand and switching your champion effect without giving up an entire turn of having a champion's abilities and board presence on the battlefield.

This would actually be a very neat idea, though if there were a way to have the replacing champion take all the original champion's abilities targeting it (death ray) it would be a bit more balanced.

Offline Alcoran

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2014, 04:09:56 AM »
Overall glad about the expansion, though DoD didn't get buffed up enough to compete with the hilariously strong new Verore and FD cards. Feels like DoD needs a rework as a faction, perhaps the next expansion should focus on it; right now, 2 Verore / 1 DoD does better than 2 or 3 DoD decks could ever hope to do.

The key things about triple DoD are that
 a. Morale death is slow. Really slow. It is essentially a control deck, which means you will never have tempo.
 b.  You need to trade efficiently and kill cards to inflict the most morale damage. Slow and/or midrange decks need to have high-value cards: look at Warpath or Genesis, for example (easy +3/+3 buffs in pack leader, splitter bot). DoD has no such cards; they are all very weak.

Basically, DoD employs a slow strategy, but slow strategies require high-value / well-trading cards that DoD does not have any of, except Coyle (which should not be necessary...DoD Coyle is like pre-nerf Sol, since he needs to compensate for the rest of the cards being trash).

Offline podian

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Re: Order: my brief review
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2014, 08:13:08 AM »
...

Aside from Verore and Flame Dawn, no faction got any real tools to help make them competitive. If you really look at it, most of the new cards I can only describe as unplayable. Like, not even draft worthy.

The previous meta, at least at high ranks, was completely devoid of midrange factions (Warpath, GI, Exiles, DoD, Sleepers). Overseers were only viable because they were downright overpowered in comparison to every other midrange deck. This was extremely common knowledge. So going into Order, I was expecting the midrange factions to get more tools to help them compete with the evergrowing aggressiveness of Flame Dawn and oppressivenes of Verore.

Instead, Flame Dawn and Verore get MORE tools to help them counter midrange and each other. Midrange got... some really slow cards. A lot of bad cards. They recieved NOTHING to help them with verore and Flame Dawn.

...

QFT, RIP midrange