Author Topic: Thunder Apprentice  (Read 1789 times)

Offline Dreamplume

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Thunder Apprentice
« on: December 12, 2014, 07:24:28 PM »
Introduction
Well we have all seen the new cards from the set release of Order but by far I want to discuss this card the most as I feel it needs a public viewing. Main factor of this card is to create the card lightning blast into your own had fair enough few extra ability cards don't hurt to have with an already good toolkit available.

My Opinion:
Thunder Apprentice is a fantastic card in its own way Art wise and ability but here how I see this card and no one has to agree with me but I just ask you to really look at it. This card is efficient enough to play early on in the game making it also an efficient commander to spam in 2 or 3 for a hand of Lightening blast cards. This is fine but did anyone look how it will effect genesis and really see just how effective Thunder Apprentice is early on in the game and late game.

I really hope card gets a change because creating so many Lightening blast cards put so much strain onto the genesis faction since the damage doubles to artificial characters combined with all the other ability cards.

Yes there are untouchable cards for genesis but to me that is not the point considering the overall strain having 5 to 6 Lightening blast cards to deal with so early on really stops genesis decks. So thank you for reading guys maybe some of you don't find this card a problem but I do very much when playing any genesis deck I haven't won against this combination yet.

Offline ap0

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2014, 07:33:49 PM »
If the x2 damage was removed from the lightning blasts created from these, and if it was only from COMBAT (not fortress attacking damage) it would be a lot better.

Offline w4golf

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2014, 07:44:21 PM »
Genesis has a lot of nifty toys.  Something to slow them up isn't such a bad thing.  I think the real worry isn't so much the x2 on mechanical, but for those decks reliant on the secluded constructor... being able to hand out a bevy of 4 damage spikes will make it so that you have to be careful which turn you bring out the replacement constructors, or else they will get zapped before they can buff themselves.

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2014, 07:55:14 PM »
Thunder Apprentice does not need a nerf - the stats on this card are horribad already. It needs to enter combat twice or more to get any value (it is a 2 drop that does 3 damage, compare with Knight of the Flame Dawn).

As a card it forces the opposing player to not ignore the potential value that can be gained by leaving it alone in the assault zone where it will ping your fortress for 3 each turn and generate cards. With correct play by both players a command zone with 2 Thunder Apprentices should produce 2-4 Lightning Blasts on average. (Which puts it on curve for its cost once you factor in the resource cost of playing the additional cards generated by it).

I think this is a well designed card and any change to it will cause it to become either op or unplayable.

Offline Dreamplume

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2014, 08:30:40 PM »
Don't use secluded constructor in my genesis decks to easy to take out but I get what some have you said and don't mean to change its stats in attack etc.. just how it acquires those Lightening blast cards and as someone said it needs to be only Combat damage or Fortress damage as it method not both. Could be wrong but I have seen people get it from both annoying as well when things get buggy how fun had a match where my ability cards wouldn't kill it lol.

Offline Thechynd

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2014, 10:01:32 PM »
I don't think there's any real issue with Thunder Apprentice but rather that Lightning Blast itself is badly designed. Even without the bonus damage its already an incredibly versatile and efficient removal card that's practically an auto-include in any card running verore. A card that strong shouldn't really be getting the ability to hose a specific faction added on to it for no extra cost. Hoser cards are normally meant to be weak or useless when used against a deck that doesn't run the stuff they were meant to hose. That's part of the reason sideboards exist.

In fact at the very start of the game Lightning Blast was created alongside a version of Death Ray that couldn't target artificial creatures. Lightning Blast's bonus damage to them acted as a sort of compensation for the fact that Verore's other best removal card was useless against them. Death Ray got changed to target any creature type, but Lightning Blast kept its bouns damage anyway, throwing off the balance that had originally been intended for Verore vs Genesis matchups.

Offline Kingrames

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2014, 10:49:13 PM »
I haven't had the chance to play it yet, but I was far more interested in the tormented minion than that one. As far as commanders go, one that gets bigger instead of being sacrificed when you sacrifice it seems more potent than one that really wants to get in for combat damage.

The lightning apprentice most of the time is really only going to be a more expensive, slower lightning blast. though I can certainly see some bad matchups.

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2014, 12:23:24 AM »
In the first place, Lightning Blast's bonus damage to Artificial characters shouldn't be there. It's situational so there's no significant change with it removed, but powerful when it does come into effect.

I'm very happy to deal 4 damage to any Zone in play for 1 Resource, thanks Lightmare.


Offline electro13

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 02:13:12 AM »
Well, they've just released a patch regarding this card that limits it to only fortress damage for no other changes. I think it will still be playable, but much less useful. It previously had the only function of a CoV commander to deal with rush. Thoughts?

Offline LostCody

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 05:23:52 AM »
with how weak the card is stat wise,and how few creatures 2 purity verore usually runs,i don't think it's all that good anymore.
as any creature in the block zone will shut this card down,were before it wasn't too bad if they blocked because you still got some value out of it.


Offline Dreamplume

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 10:20:03 AM »
with how weak the card is stat wise,and how few creatures 2 purity verore usually runs,i don't think it's all that good anymore.
as any creature in the block zone will shut this card down,were before it wasn't too bad if they blocked because you still got some value out of it.

This card is not unplayable or crap yes its ability changed and why should you be able to ensure you get an ability card that not right in it own way from my view. Saying if it got some value out of it still sounds like it ability should be similar to what it was like. Even if I die as long as I attacked I will generate you a lightening blast.

The ability had a faction advantage against Genesis that was the whole problem since genesis decks plus the faction is not something with loads of removal they carter around Artefacts, Self enhancement, Creation and other things. To deal with this was to add more removal cards but doing so I find that it minimizes the play style of your deck to deal with a single card. That is not even promising ether because you will have to rely on the RNG unlike Thunder Apprentice will be straight of in command with the possibility of the opponent having copies of Lightening Blast ready.

Note: Yes it is not 100% ensured but was a high chance still.

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2014, 04:29:35 PM »
with how weak the card is stat wise,and how few creatures 2 purity verore usually runs,i don't think it's all that good anymore.
as any creature in the block zone will shut this card down,were before it wasn't too bad if they blocked because you still got some value out of it.

This card is not unplayable or crap yes its ability changed and why should you be able to ensure you get an ability card that not right in it own way from my view. Saying if it got some value out of it still sounds like it ability should be similar to what it was like. Even if I die as long as I attacked I will generate you a lightening blast.

The ability had a faction advantage against Genesis that was the whole problem since genesis decks plus the faction is not something with loads of removal they carter around Artefacts, Self enhancement, Creation and other things. To deal with this was to add more removal cards but doing so I find that it minimizes the play style of your deck to deal with a single card. That is not even promising ether because you will have to rely on the RNG unlike Thunder Apprentice will be straight of in command with the possibility of the opponent having copies of Lightening Blast ready.

Note: Yes it is not 100% ensured but was a high chance still.

Old TA if it attacked and was blocked it would die and generate 1 lightning blast. If you then play the lightning blast you will have done a total damage of 7 from 3 total resources. This is BELOW curve. Standard for 3 resources is 8 or higher. (See consecrating angel, one of many, flame dawn purifier, etc.)

Old TA needed to generate at least 2 lightning blasts to be worth it.

New TA has a high potential to be a card that says 'spend 2 resources, deal 3 damage to a creature of an opponent's choice'. If it is played and left unblocked, yes you get a lightning blast, but as I mentioned before TA needs to generate 2 before you can break even. What this change does is ensure that TA will almost never generate 2 lightning blasts (what are the odds your opponent doesn't block it twice?) I would actually argue that masked initiate is a stronger card at the moment, just because its stats are closer to curve and it's health is above the first damage threshold (that means higher than 4 for anyone who doesn't know).

Offline ap0

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2014, 11:29:10 PM »
They should have nerfed it to dealing damage to a character, not a fortress...
Oh well.

Offline Pixels

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2014, 04:42:00 AM »
They should have nerfed it to dealing damage to a character, not a fortress...
Oh well.

+1

Offline Dreamplume

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Re: Thunder Apprentice
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2014, 04:05:46 PM »
hardly fortress is enough people are not playing turn 2 etc.. instead they are waiting for cards like death ray and sulfurstar not to mention lightening blast it self I got completely destroyed cause of those. All though who care complaining about it being nerfed man id rather it be lightening blast as well being stopped from doing 8 damage to artificial characters so damn annoying.

But that just me complaining it makes me angry to be honest most the time you don't get chance to buff it up with initiative working against you that turn. Most genesis cards seem to like being on 8 health or below just the right number for a quick blast.

So yea don't pay attention to me I want to rage xD