Author Topic: Fairness of the Auto-concede  (Read 13618 times)

Offline SDSakuragi

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2014, 08:48:47 PM »
I think one thing everyone overlooks with auto-conceding is the politeness aspect, or lack thereof. While most games that go the distance will usually involve some chit chat or at least a "GG" at the end, 99% of auto-conceders don't even acknowledge their opponent with a "hi" before hitting the concede button.

Imagine the same scenario during a physical card game: Two players sit down to set up their cards. But before either player even plays their first card, one player stands up, packs up their cards and storms off without saying a word and goes to start a game someone else instead. If this ever happened at my local MtG shop, no one would play with that person because we'd all agree his mama didn't raise him right.

Or imagine going to the local card shop and trying to dictate to your opponent which decks he can or cannot use, and if you see anything remotely resembling a deck you don't like and you'll quit playing on the spot. At best, people will think you're a pompous brat.

In face to face games, dictating which decks your opponents can use, or conceding a game on turn one without even acknowledging your opponent is not considered acceptable behavior. So what is it about moving a game online that makes it okay for people to behave this way?

"But what am I supposed to say to my opponent that won't come off as rude or dismissive anyway?" Honestly, the reason you can't think of anything to says is because in the back of your head, you know what you're doing is considered bad player etiquette.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:58:54 PM by SDSakuragi »

Offline Deadguy

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2014, 09:19:01 PM »
Only time I feel it's fair to auto-concede at the beginning of a match is if one deck just plain hard counters the other. I've for a triple FD deck based around humans with 2 toughness. I have bad matchups against Yuanshi, Sage of Ferocity and triple Warped Swarmer CoV decks, but it will just plain never win if they start with a Defiant Hermit. There's just no way. It's not just an uphill battle, but an exercise in futility, and I think it'll be more fun for both players if I surrender and try again.

Offline Adorabear

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2014, 09:19:28 PM »
Sakuragi speaks wisdom once again :)
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Offline Rawonall

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2014, 09:50:03 PM »

In face to face games, dictating which decks your opponents can use, or conceding a game on turn one without even acknowledging your opponent is not considered acceptable behavior. So what is it about moving a game online that makes it okay for people to behave this way?


Is this a serious question? Here's your serious answer.

There are two ways you can find yourself playing a 1 vs 1 tcg face to face with your opponent: either you are paired against him in a tournament, or you both agree to play a game (either for pure fun of for testing or training purposes).

In case of a tournament, with prizes on the stack, very few people will concede on the spot, and even if they do, their opponents won't probably be too much upset

In case of a friendly game, you don't just sit and go without a minimum agreement on the format or the decks you are playing: I dont' think you wander around your LGS, and just ask random people "hey pal, wanna play mtg?" and they answer "sure why not", you shuffle your standard deck and figure out on turn one they are playing legacy dredge and you calmly wait for them to play their 3/4 turns slaughtering you and then smile, extend your hand and say "gg".

More realistic scenario is:
- "hey pal, wanna play standard?"
- "yeah, why not... but you don't play mono red, right? I'm just trying this new deck and I'm not sure it's really competitive..."
and then either:
- "oh... ok, sorry but I meant to test for the next PTQ, maybe we play next time!"
or
- "oh yeah, no problem, I want to try my experimental Abzan control deck too!"

In an online game with random pairings you don't have any of this, so the only reliable way to play what you want to play is to skip opponents till you find one that suits your needs, and that's why it's perfectly ok to quit on the spot.

So the debate shouldn't be about the ethics behind quitters (they have all the rights to do what they do), but about the deficiencies of random pairings in non-ranked play.


Offline Apostroph

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2014, 10:01:22 PM »
Your right SDSakuragi, but u miss one thing... what ur discribing, is already part of the game.
Global Chat!

Some guys are talking to each other and then getting into a match. Most of the time the objective is pretty clear: "I want to test my XY deck..." or "I need to test my deck vs a XY deck"

Thats pretty close to my tcg-night experiences from the mid to the late 90s. And sure, there was a small talk about banning some specific cards out of a deck or banning whole game mechanics, because it was no fun or u were missing the counter cards. And hell, it worked! Pretty easy, if you have only 10 available opponents in the room, u cant risk to mess it up with everybody. So it was kept friendly, and everybody took care of each other that it is a pleasant night. The other option, everyone is driving home again and the entrance-fee (well, was used for free coke and chips and something like that) was for nothing!

Well, now its not part of the game, to take care of each other. Its like: My fun is above everything! And my fun starts with creating a winning-deck which is played by tons of other players, but thats what im doing. Im a copycat, and i will dominate u! Cool... never happend back then! And if u auto-concede my copycat deck, ur doomed to be a coward or even less than that... u have stolen my fun! Where is my fun!!!11eleven...

Auto-Conceeding is maybe the best answer to all those copycats. Create ur own decks, play them at the best u can and try to improve them in ur own style. And im sure, u get less auto-conceedes. Its not friendly, but copying decks just for the purpose of winning, isnt friendly as well!

One part of the small meta is, that too many ppl enyoing to play decks, they have put 10 minutes work in. Google them, copying and saving! Why wasting time for someone, who didnt waste any time for his deck? Right - its the other point of view! Its sometimes annoying, to play 10 games with 10 different persons, but at the end, u have only played 2 or 3 types of decks. BioSol, HermitWPBuff (dont know what u call this deck these days) and Oblivion/SiphonstructureRecycle30MinuteTimeWasteCrapDeck. Cool... very creative folks out there.

As i said before... there are 2 ppl playing, and both have a right to have fun. And if someone hates insta-conceedes, he wont feel better with a small "hey, i dont like ur deck... excuse me and bye" Thats even more offending... i think.

A little disclaimer: Not everyting in my post is 100% my opinion. But in some points, its close to what i think about those few decks im always stumbling in... creativity sometimes zero, but claiming all the fun!

Can u imagine, that it would be fun for ur opponent, if u play something new and refreshing?

Dont know, 3 new replies meanwhile... just saying! =)

« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:04:51 PM by Apostroph »

Offline Groove Wizard

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2014, 10:27:33 PM »
If you're running some boring deck full of imbalanced cards that everyone else uses, it's a waste of my time to play you. It's that simple. I'm nearly level 50 and I've never been conceded to at the start of the match even once that I can remember, let alone enough times to complain about it, because I actually build my own decks and play for fun. Ironically I'm supposedly ruining other people's fun because I don't want to lose to Biosol or whatever brainless meta-deck they've copied from the internet.

Offline MerliniX

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2014, 10:34:51 PM »
If you're running some boring deck full of imbalanced cards that everyone else uses, it's a waste of my time to play you. It's that simple. I'm nearly level 50 and I've never been conceded to at the start of the match even once that I can remember, let alone enough times to complain about it, because I actually build my own decks and play for fun. Ironically I'm supposedly ruining other people's fun because I don't want to lose to Biosol or whatever brainless meta-deck they've copied from the internet.

I would be honestly very surprised to learn that 'netdecking' of any sort is a problem in this game. The vast majority of decks I find posted online are just flat out bad.

Offline SDSakuragi

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2014, 10:46:59 PM »
You're right Apostroph, this whole conversation would be much easier to follow if everyone going on about how the game supposed to be fun for all players would actually come out an say what they really think:

"It's all about whether I can have my fun. I don't care about whether my opponent has fun or has to wait 20 minutes in queue or has to sit thru 20 minutes of stall, as long as I can have fun. Does that make me selfish? Whatever it's the internet."

I keep joking about this, but honestly, one day someone will invent a way to punch people thru the internet, and that will make the web a better place.

In case of a friendly game, you don't just sit and go without a minimum agreement on the format or the decks you are playing: I dont' think you wander around your LGS, and just ask random people "hey pal, wanna play mtg?" and they answer "sure why not", you shuffle your standard deck and figure out on turn one they are playing legacy dredge and you calmly wait for them to play their 3/4 turns slaughtering you and then smile, extend your hand and say "gg".

More realistic scenario is:
- "hey pal, wanna play standard?"
- "yeah, why not... but you don't play mono red, right? I'm just trying this new deck and I'm not sure it's really competitive..."
and then either:
- "oh... ok, sorry but I meant to test for the next PTQ, maybe we play next time!"
or
- "oh yeah, no problem, I want to try my experimental Abzan control deck too!"

In an online game with random pairings you don't have any of this, so the only reliable way to play what you want to play is to skip opponents till you find one that suits your needs, and that's why it's perfectly ok to quit on the spot.

Actually, at my local shop at most you agree on a format: "You wanna play Modern?" This you actually do in Infinity Wars when you check off off what modes you're queuing up for. Requesting prior knowledge of your opponent's deck is kinda sketchy.

Given your sample conversation, what's wrong with taking 10 seconds of your time to tell the opponent, "I'm sorry I was hoping to play my deck against an aggro deck and not triple CoV."

The point of my post is not to say that auto-conceding is wrong, but rather that the way people go about doing it is rude and inconsiderate to others.

For example, Adorabear auto-concedes every time he sees my DoD Death Trap deck (it's not even meta!). doesn't even say "hi." But that's because he's a bear and petty human rules of social etiquette hold no sway over his ursine majesty.  :P

Sakuragi speaks wisdom once again :)


I'm going to use that as my signature from now on.  ;D
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:54:57 PM by SDSakuragi »

Offline Benionin

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2014, 11:02:17 PM »
All this talk of auto-conceding reminds me of the good old days (ahem, day) when Gowron and Diseased Zombie hung out in command. I played some five games. The first one played out, another one began with a lightning bolt to kill the zombie before he could poison Gowron (I went on to win anyway) and then the other ones were all insta-concedes. After that, I stopped playing the deck, because it was boring. Never got in a mirror match though. That woulda been interesting.
But that was a particularly rough case.

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Offline BlackLightning

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2014, 11:07:30 PM »
I have news for all of you meta haters that put down the players for using them: there will always be stronger decks than the average pool and people are going to want to use them. That's just the way it is and it's not going to change.

It starts with somebody in the player base capitalizing on the cards available and making a competitive deck. Can you in all honesty blame someone for doing that? Or even blame the players that use the idea to have a competitive advantage?

Also, I want to let everyone know that I am all for the balancing of the Overseers as there is an inherent problem with that faction. However, I still almost always play out games against Angel decks. Admittedly, I will concede on the last or before last turn if I see that I'm done for (against OS only). The important thing to note is that I at least try and sometimes I'll catch a lucky break like today where I beat 2 different BioSol players with my friggin' Omnitron deck!

Just play out the games ffs and try to make the best of it. We all have our preferred match-ups but auto-conceders should just suck it up. How will they ever learn how to possibly counter a deck if they refuse to play against it?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 11:17:17 PM by BlackLightning »

Offline Rethorian

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2014, 11:10:00 PM »
Given your sample conversation, what's wrong with taking 10 seconds of your time to tell the opponent, "I'm sorry I was hoping to play my deck against an aggro deck and not triple CoV."

The point of my post is not to say that auto-conceding is wrong, but rather that the way people go about doing it is rude and inconsiderate to others.

I'm not sure there's a polite way of saying "I'm sorry for wasting 20 minutes of your time".

I only get so many hours of recreation a day. It's not unreasonable for me to choose NOT to spend that time being miserable. If that makes me a horrible person, so be it. It's not a nice thing to do, but neither is beating up an opponent who can't win.

It's a symptom of long queue times and low player population. No one really cares in other online TCG's like Hearthstone about conceding.

Offline Rawonall

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #56 on: November 18, 2014, 11:24:52 PM »

"It's all about whether I can have my fun. I don't care about whether my opponent has fun or has to wait 20 minutes in queue or has to sit thru 20 minutes of stall, as long as I can have fun. Does that make me selfish? Whatever it's the internet."

Wrong, horribly wrong. It would be right if people said "I want to quit whenever I feel like, but I'm upset when people quit on me.", but that's not the case.
Let me paraphrase your statement, stating the real POV of a serial quitter:

"It's all about whether we can both  have fun playing our game. I don't care if my opponents is upset if I don't have fun playing against his deck and choose not to do so, and I'd respect  his decision to quit should he find MY deck annoying. Does that made me a reasonable person? Sure it does."



Given your sample conversation, what's wrong with taking 10 seconds of your time to tell the opponent, "I'm sorry I was hoping to play my deck against an aggro deck and not triple CoV."


Given that I already robbed my opponent of the time spent loading the game, and I wasted the same amount of time while being paired against his Imho unfun deck, I don't want to waste 10 seconds more. I'm fairly sure that anybody with a sane mind, knowing that the only things I know about him are their commanders, will correctly assume what's the reason behind my quitting.
Moreover, whenever somebody complains to me about quitting, I'm more than happy to politely explain, while I'm waiting in queue, that I don't have fun playing against their deck.

Offline moominpeter

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #57 on: November 18, 2014, 11:56:30 PM »
If people conceding turn 1 annoys you, play ranked or rift run. Then you will run into very few turn 1 concedes, and the ones you do run into will make you happy, not sad.

In normal constructed play it will always be a thing and there is little that can be done about it. Decks like the stall deck exacerbate it because they win slowly and demolish most non-top tier decks, so avoid stall, oblivion, and other big meta decks if turn 1 concedes annoy you. Personally, I rarely see turn 1 concedes even when playing these decks, and basically never see them when playing something other than a top tier deck in normal. When I do see them they don't bother me.

The best thing Lightmare can do to help with this problem is improve balance and shorten queue times. No other solution is likely to work well without being abused.

As for later turn concedes, they are a typical part of most competitive play. If you watch the MtG protours on youtube you will see people concede all the time when they know they've lost, especially against control decks or combination decks that take a long time to finish you after they go off. It is considered sportsmanlike and proper in that context. It is also considered sportsmanlike and proper in other online games such as Starcraft, as others have pointed out. It never occurred to me that people in IW would get annoyed by it.

I rarely do it in IW just because IW games are much less likely to be over before they're over, and even once they are over there's almost always a chance, however slim, that your opponent will overthink it and screw something up because they're trying to play around a card you don't have. I do see people concede on the round before I am going to beat them with some frequency, but usually this happens when I am taking a long time and trying to play around everything, even though I am 95% certain I've won. I don't really blame them for not wanting to wait two minutes for me to go over every card combo they could possibly have that could screw me up and think about how to get around it, and consider this form of concession a typical part of competitive play that involves no impoliteness on either player's part.

Offline NatoPotato

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2014, 12:09:21 AM »

TL:DR, For me (and I hope most other people) it's not about avoiding loss, it's about avoiding complete boredom, even if I know I will lose or if I know the opponents deck will annoy me it can still be interesting to play against, and even if I could easily win the game given the match-up I don't want to bother playing against decks that are boring and predictable.
I think the only real problem here is queue times.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 12:13:48 AM by NatoPotato »

Offline Adorabear

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Re: Fairness of the Auto-concede
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2014, 12:49:19 AM »
because he's a bear and petty human rules of social etiquette hold no sway over his ursine majesty.  :P


And I think I should use this as my signature from now on! lol ::)
Goose got me loose!