Author Topic: Demon of fear's overnerf  (Read 3343 times)

Offline Held

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Demon of fear's overnerf
« on: October 26, 2014, 05:44:41 PM »
Hi
I think (I hope) lightmare has seen that they have overnerfed Demon of fear. I see that it was probably too strong (10/10, cost 5), but I'd like to discuss a little how strong it should be.
Why do I think it is overnerfed?
Because a 7/7-flying drop for cost 6 is really rediculous (e.g. compare it with Aerial Commando, Soldier of purity, Champion of ruin, Lilariah) ... and moral 12.
I believe those comparisons are justified because the cost effectiveness must also be (at least a little) balanced when you don't pay any further (pay X, X=0) res. The strenght of the cards was not the buddy but its effect.
Therefore I suggest to make the card a 8/8, flying with cost 4+2X.
A 8/8 Flying character for cost 4 is not the stongest, but, regarding its other effect and that Verore should have little weaker characters, it is ok. The change from X to 2X is a better adjustment to the overpowerness of the card's effect because it hits where it the problem rises from and is still a big nerf compared to the 10/10-cost5-variant.

I'm expectant if lightmare can understand my argumentation and will use my suggestion. :)

Offline Groove Wizard

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2014, 09:19:33 PM »
Demon of Fear is an excellent card and the change you proposed would make it worse. Its strength lies in being able to splash it with creature-heavy factions and stumble 5+ enemy characters late game to finish off your opponent. You should never play him for less than 10 resources unless you have to.

Offline Logadd

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2014, 10:50:20 PM »
Right now DoF is borderline unusable, it won't be used in 3 CoV, 2 and 1 CoV only sit in specific decks and those really don't have slot for extremly overcosted flyer with fairly weak effect(siphoners, morale, hermit). Proposed change only makes it better for 4 and 6 and 8, but even at those costs it looks really meh, i dont see myself putting him over something like Shikana in the deck, but i probably missing something.

Offline Heart

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 01:33:19 AM »
I agree that dof if basically useless since the nerf, relative to all other options.
They could have at least lowered morale to like 5-8.
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Offline Pixelei

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2014, 02:05:35 AM »
They could have at least lowered morale to like 5-8.

I was about to say something along these lines. I think it's still a very good card, but 12 morale for those stats is a bit ridiculous. Bumping the cost down to 5 would also be a welcome change.

Offline Shimrra3

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 02:59:45 AM »
Demon needs something back. Lowering the morale cost is an obvious one, but it could just as easily go down to a base cost of 5 resources again.

It could also be made slightly larger - 8/8 wouldn't make it ANY less vulnerable to the few things that hurt it (Banish, Hulking Sniper, double hits from Firebolt/Lightning Blast/Luftkrieg XI), while something more aggressive like 9/7 or 10/8 wouldn't be totally out of the question either... SINCE ITS STILL A 7/7 FOR 6 AND 12.
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Offline Nehkrimah

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 09:42:32 AM »
I'm fine with verore having a higher morale than normal to be honest, in a faction that quite often has very few creatures,having a high morale means that morale still matters slightly to them.

Offline Logadd

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 10:45:31 AM »
It was fine as 5 cost 10/10 situational card, now it's just worthless. I haven't seen DoF or old Xi ever since Ascention.

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2014, 02:49:56 AM »
It was fine as 5 cost 10/10 situational card, now it's just worthless. I haven't seen DoF or old Xi ever since Ascention.

Demon of Fear went from significantly above curve to marginally below.  It's still situationally useful but not the auto-include it once was.  There were many cards that got creamed at the same time though, why all the discussion on this one?

Old Xi still has a niche place, and I've seen her a few times.  Personally though I think all the ascended ladies should have been dual purity and not half purity, to reflect their increased overall power level.

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2014, 02:05:01 PM »
It was fine as 5 cost 10/10 situational card, now it's just worthless. I haven't seen DoF or old Xi ever since Ascention.

Demon of Fear went from significantly above curve to marginally below.  It's still situationally useful but not the auto-include it once was.  There were many cards that got creamed at the same time though, why all the discussion on this one?

Old Xi still has a niche place, and I've seen her a few times.  Personally though I think all the ascended ladies should have been dual purity and not half purity, to reflect their increased overall power level.

Probably because lucca and sacculas are still useful while DoF is useless now.

Offline Pixelei

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2014, 10:52:00 PM »
It was fine as 5 cost 10/10 situational card, now it's just worthless. I haven't seen DoF or old Xi ever since Ascention.

Demon of Fear went from significantly above curve to marginally below.  It's still situationally useful but not the auto-include it once was.  There were many cards that got creamed at the same time though, why all the discussion on this one?

Old Xi still has a niche place, and I've seen her a few times.  Personally though I think all the ascended ladies should have been dual purity and not half purity, to reflect their increased overall power level.

Probably because lucca and sacculas are still useful while DoF is useless now.

I really wouldn't go that far. It's much worse, sure, but I wouldn't call it useless. Comes in handy as an additional late game stall. But, well, not for much else anymore. My vote is on bumping the cost back down to 5.

Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2014, 02:04:49 AM »
The lower cost is what made it so efficient to begin with. It wasn't really played for the body. The body just made it harder to remove before it was usable. I think the best move is to lower morale cost, and 'maybe' increase the body.
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Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2014, 03:18:59 AM »
It was fine as 5 cost 10/10 situational card, now it's just worthless. I haven't seen DoF or old Xi ever since Ascention.

Demon of Fear went from significantly above curve to marginally below.  It's still situationally useful but not the auto-include it once was.  There were many cards that got creamed at the same time though, why all the discussion on this one?

Old Xi still has a niche place, and I've seen her a few times.  Personally though I think all the ascended ladies should have been dual purity and not half purity, to reflect their increased overall power level.

Probably because lucca and sacculas are still useful while DoF is useless now.

I was actually thinking Prophet Karani, Virus of Avarrach, and Verorian Hydra as well.  Hydra, Lucca, and Sacculas were all single element changes in keeping with Lightmare's supposed small and incremental philosophy, so people don't have too much trouble with them.  But Karani went from great to very poor, and Virus went from potentially game winning to totally worthless.  Karani's changes have spawned a few minor rants, but nothing like the vitriol coming from Demon of Fear partisans.  I think I'm the only one who misses (or even regularly played) the old Virus of Avarrach.  And yet I'd say Demon of Fear remains hands down more useful than either Karani or Virus.

Offline Heart

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2014, 05:50:59 AM »
It was fine as 5 cost 10/10 situational card, now it's just worthless. I haven't seen DoF or old Xi ever since Ascention.

Demon of Fear went from significantly above curve to marginally below.  It's still situationally useful but not the auto-include it once was.  There were many cards that got creamed at the same time though, why all the discussion on this one?

Old Xi still has a niche place, and I've seen her a few times.  Personally though I think all the ascended ladies should have been dual purity and not half purity, to reflect their increased overall power level.

Probably because lucca and sacculas are still useful while DoF is useless now.

I was actually thinking Prophet Karani, Virus of Avarrach, and Verorian Hydra as well.  Hydra, Lucca, and Sacculas were all single element changes in keeping with Lightmare's supposed small and incremental philosophy, so people don't have too much trouble with them.  But Karani went from great to very poor, and Virus went from potentially game winning to totally worthless.  Karani's changes have spawned a few minor rants, but nothing like the vitriol coming from Demon of Fear partisans.  I think I'm the only one who misses (or even regularly played) the old Virus of Avarrach.  And yet I'd say Demon of Fear remains hands down more useful than either Karani or Virus.

I still see karani as wayyyy more useful than a demon of fear. She was so overpowering that she alone almost forced to you play triple warpath as the only viable option in playing warpath, stunting all creativity and variation in warpath decks, something that harms future card creation and playstyles. As for virus, you have to understand that it was changed because it basically auto broke the game if played. That is a perfectly reasonable reason to have changed the card so drastically and I think many people understand and accept that, the same reason applies to why lanstead was changed too. Demon of fear was just nerfed so harshly that it almost feels like someone at lightmare had a personal vendetta against the card.
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Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Demon of fear's overnerf
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2014, 10:31:03 PM »

I still see karani as wayyyy more useful than a demon of fear. She was so overpowering that she alone almost forced to you play triple warpath as the only viable option in playing warpath, stunting all creativity and variation in warpath decks, something that harms future card creation and playstyles. As for virus, you have to understand that it was changed because it basically auto broke the game if played. That is a perfectly reasonable reason to have changed the card so drastically and I think many people understand and accept that, the same reason applies to why lanstead was changed too. Demon of fear was just nerfed so harshly that it almost feels like someone at lightmare had a personal vendetta against the card.

The big difference between Lanstead's change and Virus is that Lanstead is arguably MORE powerful now, and has opened up a whole new deck archetype.  I certainly understand the need for a fix, but Virus has become just another epic rarity digital coaster.  It should have had its cost reduced by 2 to match its current, woefully underpowered state.  I guess it was too much to hope for a fix for the bug, rather than a wholly unsatisfactory change to work around it.

As for Karani, I suppose you find her useful in a Titan/Hidden by Clouds deck?  My collection has neither of these cards, sadly, which undoubtedly colors my opinion of her utility.  For more basic Warpath decks, Karani isn't worth including in any variation I've experimented with, let alone putting as a commander.