Author Topic: Veroria Bug  (Read 2327 times)

Offline ap0

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Veroria Bug
« on: September 18, 2014, 10:36:27 PM »
(Yes, I reported this bug via bug report manager or w/e on the website)

Here's how the turn goes: (I have initiative)
1. I trigger Veroria, and lose 10 HP
2. Opponent destroys Veroria
3. Opponent attacks me, disregarding Veroria.

The effect of Veroria already was triggered, I already lost the 10hp, so the opponent should not be able to attack me.

Veroria does not have a "while in play effect" so its effect should not be negated when its destroyed. That's like saying a character buffed by Lanstead the same turn it's destroyed should be debuffed.


^^^^^^^^^
The card does not state that it needs to still be in play during the combat resolution phase for the effect to work.
I've lost a few games to this bug on turns that I had initiative.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 10:50:16 PM by ap0 »

Offline Heart

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 10:59:03 PM »
On the one hand, other locations lose their effects if they get destroyed, on the other, you did play it on your priority. I kinda don't know which way it should go, pretty much either side has valid points, and would need to be decided by how the devs want the game to be like.
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Offline ap0

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 11:15:02 PM »
On the one hand, other locations lose their effects if they get destroyed, on the other, you did play it on your priority. I kinda don't know which way it should go, pretty much either side has valid points, and would need to be decided by how the devs want the game to be like.

Well half of the effect stays even after it's destroyed(losing 10hp).

The way that the card is worded currently doesn't state that it needs to be kept in play.
"Your opponent cannot attack you this turn." Now, it doesn't have any if's / or's / but's. It's stated as an absolute that my opponent "cannot attack [me] this turn".
Either card text needs to be updated, or the card fixed.


Also; the locations effects only get removed if they're a passive effect. You don't see cards buffed by Lanstead debuffed after Lanstead is destroyed.


It makes no sense for the way it is now to be the way intended.
Activated abilities' effects stay in play(for however long the card specifies), even after the permanent is gone. Whereas passive buffs/debuffs are removed.
Ex:
1. Aleta, Immortal Caretaker buffs a unit
2. Aleta, Immortal Caretaker is destroyed
3. Effect remains in play/Character keeps buff. (Because the effect happened before it was destroyed)

vs

1. Pack Leader is in play
2. Pack leader is destroyed
3. Effect is removed (because the card is no longer deployed)
If you have a pack leader and it is destroyed, everything instantly loses its buff, because it was a passive effect of pack leader.

This can be shown by other locations, not just characters.

ex:
1. Lanstead "activates" and buffs a character
2. lanstead is destroyed
3. Effect remains in play/Character remains buffed. (Because the effect happened before it was destroyed)

vs

1. Corrupted forest's "passive" is active
2. Corrupted forest is destroyed
3. Effect is removed because it's a passive. (it's no longer deployed)

However, Veroria has an activated ability, and that ability should remain in play until end of turn.

This can also be monitored with ability cards

1. Play brutality on creature
2. Opponent attacks with Soldier of purity and removes brutality from the game
3. creature keeps buff from brutality (until specified end time) because it's an activated ability

vs

1. Play Rampant Virus
2. Opponent attacks with Soldier of Purity and removes Rampant virus from the game
3. Rampant virus doesn't trigger because it's a passive ability.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2014, 11:33:58 PM by ap0 »

Offline ap0

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 11:34:09 PM »
[merged posts]

Offline lilo

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 12:47:44 AM »
Also, not sure if it also happens on PvP, but at least on PvE (training), The Lone Keep asks for the new 10HP cost, plus removes the old 4 Morale (not written on the card) from the controlling player.
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Offline ap0

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 12:58:11 AM »
Also, not sure if it also happens on PvP, but at least on PvE (training), The Lone Keep asks for the new 10HP cost, plus removes the old 4 Morale (not written on the card) from the controlling player.

Not that I've noticed.

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 02:10:12 AM »
Also, not sure if it also happens on PvP, but at least on PvE (training), The Lone Keep asks for the new 10HP cost, plus removes the old 4 Morale (not written on the card) from the controlling player.

Yeah, those quests really need to be reworked for the new Veroria.  The AI controlling the mission(s) where you're attacking the Keep never uses the ability, making it a cakewalk since it was balanced before to only allowing one attacker.

Offline Abyss

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2014, 05:58:23 AM »
This has come up before, and yeah - it absolutely should be changed. Veroria creates an ongoing effect. If removing the source of the effect stops it, it should effect everything - which would mean, for example, killing something that has buffed another card should remove the buff. The fact that Veroria has a time limit shouldn't be relevant. Locations working differently because they are locations is stupid.

Offline ap0

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2014, 06:13:15 AM »
This has come up before, and yeah - it absolutely should be changed. Veroria creates an ongoing effect. If removing the source of the effect stops it, it should effect everything - which would mean, for example, killing something that has buffed another card should remove the buff. The fact that Veroria has a time limit shouldn't be relevant. Locations working differently because they are locations is stupid.

How I see abilities differ:
Activated abilities are absolutes. Once they're triggered, they're in play. No exceptions.
If passives are destroyed/removed then they're not in play anymore.

Veroria is an activated ability, so it should function like an activated ability, not a passive one.

This is the ONLY card (that I've seen) with an activated ability that acts like a passive.
It could possibly be old code from the old Veroria, which had a passive ability.

Offline Pjoelj

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 07:00:44 AM »
On the one hand, other locations lose their effects if they get destroyed, on the other, you did play it on your priority. I kinda don't know which way it should go, pretty much either side has valid points, and would need to be decided by how the devs want the game to be like.
The same goes for Artifacts, but Characters aren't un-shifted when Shifting Stone is destroyed.
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Offline dougernaut

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 05:06:31 PM »
Part of the problem seems to be that the cost happens during the deployment phase, while the effect doesn't do anything until the combat phase.

The way it works right now makes some sense in a "story" type sense.  The location is destroyed before the battle, so how can it defend you during the battle.

But it does kind of suck in terms of gameplay that you pay the cost but lose the benefit, plus the card is definitly not written correctly for the current interaction.

Unfortunately it is a bit hard to compare the interaction to the other locations, or really most other cards since it is fairly unique.  The only thing I can think of is something like Hahkeem.  Does anyone know what happens if Hehkeem is played, but killed before the combat phase?  Does he still grant unstoppable if he is dead before the fighting starts? 

Offline ap0

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2014, 11:14:14 PM »
Part of the problem seems to be that the cost happens during the deployment phase, while the effect doesn't do anything until the combat phase.

The way it works right now makes some sense in a "story" type sense.  The location is destroyed before the battle, so how can it defend you during the battle.

But it does kind of suck in terms of gameplay that you pay the cost but lose the benefit, plus the card is definitly not written correctly for the current interaction.

Unfortunately it is a bit hard to compare the interaction to the other locations, or really most other cards since it is fairly unique.  The only thing I can think of is something like Hahkeem.  Does anyone know what happens if Hehkeem is played, but killed before the combat phase?  Does he still grant unstoppable if he is dead before the fighting starts?

I believe so, based on the way he's worded.
Code: [Select]
When Hehkeem comes into play, all characters you control gain Unstoppable until the end of turn. 1. Comes into play granting everything unstoppable
2. It dies
3. Creatures keep unstoppable because requirement was already met/paid/activated and was not conditional.

Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2014, 04:23:02 AM »
You seem to think that getting countered should be free. There are no cards in the game where if you counter them before their effects go off, they refund the cost. This Keep should be no different. That your location is a playable ability is completely irrelevant. All other locations with playable abilities also charge regardless of whether they get destroyed or not. See Hellmouth, Breeding Ground, etc.

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 05:15:17 AM »
You seem to think that getting countered should be free. There are no cards in the game where if you counter them before their effects go off, they refund the cost. This Keep should be no different. That your location is a playable ability is completely irrelevant. All other locations with playable abilities also charge regardless of whether they get destroyed or not. See Hellmouth, Breeding Ground, etc.

Check back with the OP.  He stated he had the initiative.  So to continue your comparison to Hellmouth, it would be like paying to activate it, getting the creatures from it on your initiative, then having the creatures disappear along with the location when it is destroyed on your opponent's initiative.  This clearly doesn't (and shouldn't) happen.

Offline Knive8s9704

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Re: Veroria Bug
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 03:26:02 PM »
You seem to think that getting countered should be free. There are no cards in the game where if you counter them before their effects go off, they refund the cost. This Keep should be no different. That your location is a playable ability is completely irrelevant. All other locations with playable abilities also charge regardless of whether they get destroyed or not. See Hellmouth, Breeding Ground, etc.

Check back with the OP.  He stated he had the initiative.  So to continue your comparison to Hellmouth, it would be like paying to activate it, getting the creatures from it on your initiative, then having the creatures disappear along with the location when it is destroyed on your opponent's initiative.  This clearly doesn't (and shouldn't) happen.

I like Mafia's comparison to other ability activation locations so hence, whether it activate or not should be determined by purity. Lore-wise, maybe vevoria send out a 1-turn paralyze/interference wave and since the OP had priority, it paralyzes the attackers first. Tower getting destroyed after doesn't nullify the paralysis.

Coding wise- I think they simply extended the old Vevoria effect and lower the attacker limit with an if clause. If vevoria activates, -10hp and 0 attackers allowed. So, the old coding where vevoria works only deployed is till in effect...shouldn't be a hard fix but does make it more complicated.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 03:28:04 PM by Knive8s9704 »