Author Topic: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple  (Read 1731 times)

Offline Painkiller95

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Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« on: September 15, 2014, 09:55:45 PM »
Is it a wanted thing that when a demonic disciple gets discarded and enters in game as a demon the demonborn does not get the buff?

Offline xneosrevenge

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 02:57:54 AM »
Demonborn only receives the bonus for cards entering play from the hand or command zone. Since the demon is coming from the graveyard, the bonus does not activate. This is intended (:
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Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 03:35:48 AM »
Actually, I think it's unintended. They just haven't found a way to fix it yet. Least, that's the understanding I got from some of what I read.
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Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2014, 05:28:55 AM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2014, 06:24:13 AM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.
Then what about Zombie Abomination getting his buffs and removing all other characters in the Grave when he is Awakened from the Grave? His text states that "When you play Zombie Abomination..." instead of 'deploy', but unless I'm mistaken, they're interchangeable.

Offline ap0

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2014, 06:30:36 AM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.

Used to be when you raised Sacullas that he'd trigger.
IDK if it still is.

Offline Pjoelj

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 06:37:42 AM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.

Used to be when you raised Sacullas that he'd trigger.
IDK if it still is.
He triggers on entering the Deployed Zone. Doesn't mean you deploy him.

Is it a wanted thing that when a demonic disciple gets discarded and enters in game as a demon the demonborn does not get the buff?
Probably. I don't know whether being played through Exile counts as deploying something, but even if so, they aren't demons when they enter play, meaning they don't trigger Demonborn.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 06:39:45 AM by Pjoelj »
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Vertu Honagan

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 03:15:27 PM »
I always thought Demonborn should be buffed by them played through Exile. I mean why not? It's even more work to play them through Exile, you should at least get rewarded for that hard work by giving Demonborn the buff it deserves.

Offline JSlayerXero

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2014, 04:39:19 PM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.
Then what about Zombie Abomination getting his buffs and removing all other characters in the Grave when he is Awakened from the Grave? His text states that "When you play Zombie Abomination..." instead of 'deploy', but unless I'm mistaken, they're interchangeable.

This is bad wording. Either it's effect doesn't match the text or its text doesn't match the effect, but something is wrong. Being raised from the graveyard is not a deploy. A bunch of evidence includes having more than one Unique character and that "when you deploy" effects do not trigger, such as Cornicen. Zombie Abomination is an oddball exception that probably stems from when the wording was switched over or is just incorrect.
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Offline Painkiller95

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2014, 05:00:07 PM »
I'm asking because I noticed that if Nysrugh the Hungry is deployed and he eats a demon demonic disciple (killing it) when Nysrugh dies and the demon come back from the graveyard the demonborn get the buff. And btw it does not get buffed by creature in command zone.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2014, 05:08:46 PM by Painkiller95 »

Offline xneosrevenge

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2014, 08:45:23 PM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.

Used to be when you raised Sacullas that he'd trigger.
IDK if it still is.

Yes, it is true that Graveyard -> Support Zone is not a deploy, but if the card states that it is going to the Deployed Zone, the effect will activate. They are two very different things. This is still correct for both Sacullas and Lucca. This is because, as stated, their ability is activated when they enter a Deployed Zone. The Deployed Zones are Support Zone, Assault Zone, and Defense Zone.

Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.
Then what about Zombie Abomination getting his buffs and removing all other characters in the Grave when he is Awakened from the Grave? His text states that "When you play Zombie Abomination..." instead of 'deploy', but unless I'm mistaken, they're interchangeable.

This is bad wording. Either it's effect doesn't match the text or its text doesn't match the effect, but something is wrong. Being raised from the graveyard is not a deploy. A bunch of evidence includes having more than one Unique character and that "when you deploy" effects do not trigger, such as Cornicen. Zombie Abomination is an oddball exception that probably stems from when the wording was switched over or is just incorrect.

This isn't entirely bad wording. He is entering the Deployed Zone. As I said above, there is a difference between the words "deploy" and "entering a deployed zone" (kinda). Zombie Abomination and Cornicern have two different ability triggers.

I'm asking because I noticed that if Nysrugh the Hungry is deployed and he eats a demon demonic disciple (killing it) when Nysrugh dies and the demon come back from the graveyard the demonborn get the buff. And btw it does not get buffed by creature in command zone.
I'm going to address both your statement aswell as Vertu's. Demonborn's ability states that, "When you deploy a Demon, Demonborn gains +1/+1." As I mentioned above, there is a difference between deploying and having a character enter a deployed zone.
Now, currently Demonborn gains +1/+1 for other Demons paying their Exile cost (such as Unstable Demon). This does not seem intended. Let's just say this is intended, though (some things would need cleared up). The reason Demonborn is not specifically gaining buffs from Demonic Disciple is because when he is "deployed from the graveyard with the Exile cost", he enters as a human and then transforms after being "deployed". The reason Nysrugh spitting up the demon Demonic Desciple is because, well, its a demon at that point. The fact that Nysrugh's death gives boosts is not intended, either (or shouldn't be based on the definition of a deploy).

I hope I helped clear some things up. Some of these things need to be reworded and looked at so that "deploying" and "a character entering a deployed zone" are cleared up.
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Offline Screamindiz

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2014, 09:29:04 PM »
It feels like paying a card's exile cost should be similar to playing it from hand similar to recurring nightmare being able to be played from the graveyard as if it were in your hand.  I would very much like to hear some clarification from LM as to how exactly cards played through exile are intended to be treated in the "deployment" function as well as where they fit in with the order of operations.

Offline Clearbeard

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 11:28:52 AM »
As the game currently handles it, deploying a card from exile IS the same as deploying it from your hand.  It actually takes the card back into your hand and then plays it for the lower cost, so things like Demonborn will trigger from Unstable Demon, for instance.  You can test this by paying exile costs, and then undoing the action.  In some circumstances, the previously discarded card actually ends up back in your hand, and you can play it for its normal cost rather than having it stay in the graveyard.  However, with Demonic Disciple, you should notice that when he is played from the graveyard, he is deployed in his 4/4 human form, and then transforms into a demon at the end of the turn.  Things like Yuanshi will kill them the turn they are deployed before they transform into a stronger form.  While this is not strictly how it seems to me like it should work from card text (it specifies that it transforms, but it is implied this is immediately on play, not at the end of the turn), it does explain why they do not currently trigger Demonborn, because they never are actually deployed as demons.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2014, 11:45:47 AM by Clearbeard »

Offline JSlayerXero

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 02:57:10 PM »
Untrue. Played from graveyard has been stated to not be a deploy condition.
Then what about Zombie Abomination getting his buffs and removing all other characters in the Grave when he is Awakened from the Grave? His text states that "When you play Zombie Abomination..." instead of 'deploy', but unless I'm mistaken, they're interchangeable.

This is bad wording. Either it's effect doesn't match the text or its text doesn't match the effect, but something is wrong. Being raised from the graveyard is not a deploy. A bunch of evidence includes having more than one Unique character and that "when you deploy" effects do not trigger, such as Cornicen. Zombie Abomination is an oddball exception that probably stems from when the wording was switched over or is just incorrect.

This isn't entirely bad wording. He is entering the Deployed Zone. As I said above, there is a difference between the words "deploy" and "entering a deployed zone" (kinda). Zombie Abomination and Cornicern have two different ability triggers.

Cornicen says "when you deploy." Zombie Abomination says "when you play." I've heard it hand-waved as it meaning "enters the deployed zone" but that's not the correct card text and when they shifted wording over it should have changed to "when you deploy." I know there's a difference between "enters the deployed zone" and "when you deploy." I am aware of the difference between Sacullas, Lucca and other like them and all the 1-drop wonders. However, unless "when you play" means that it's both raise and deploy but not entering the deployed zone via something like Controlled Temporal Anomaly, then it's incorrect wording since it's archaic and/or wrong.

Upon some testing, the Abomination still seems to work when CTA is used, which means it effect should read "enters the deployed zone" as "when you play" would be redundant if it means the same thing.
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Offline Mafia_Puppet

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Re: Demonborn interaction with demonic disciple
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 03:44:16 AM »
Every time the devs insist on using the term "play", a baby dies.

It's got all the definition of an obese elderly woman.

I don't think any rules lawyering by reference to the word "play" is persuasive.

The other terms that they could easily have used in place of it are clearly defined in other places.

Deploy (verb) -> put into one of the three deployed zones from hand, the void, the deck, or command.

Deployment zone -> attack, defend, support zones

Battlefield -> attack, defend zones

Cards that reference "play" or "put into play" has been shown to be riddled with conflicting exceptions, mostly due to exiles or sleepers mechanics. You should just deal with the function of the card as it is, rather than try to rules lawyer the outdated wording.