Author Topic: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5  (Read 8934 times)

Offline Logadd

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2014, 06:01:25 PM »
Mad Monk not getting any changes? In most cases he is strictly better spontaneous combustion(4+ cost) plus vigilance body(3 cost). I understand what he will most likely be played in about one deck archetype, but even like that it's silly how overvalue he is. He is extremly good against anything what plays any offensive creatures and only counterplay to him i can see is not killing him or not playing any creatures. If it's generally considered what it is balanced card i would really like some comments on how is that. I honestly have more problems with mill because of all random undodgeable removals and AoE and not because of endless deck. I appreciate gather thoughts nerf, but i wonder if it will be really enough or if it will even change anything at all.

Offline The_Fallen

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2014, 06:14:24 PM »
I' am pretty happy with the patch notes, but once again I agree with Heart. Disabling smart counterplay in regards to bomb bot and shikana fees just like dumbing the gameplay down, aka a bad game idea.  To be honest all abilities on cards, which are not of the "when deployed"-type should happen in the initative order.  Else what is the reason of having an initative?

It would be nice to have a post from Teremus or a dev about all phases: Name and the function happening. Especially about the following things: ressource gain, normal draw of a card, planning, resolution, initative phase end turn phase (=> especially regarding in which priority the end of turn effects happen. There are at least 3 different end of turn phases.), discard at the end of turn because of the handsize and all other things i missed.


« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 06:20:05 PM by The_Fallen »
Still waiting. Hope declining.

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Offline 3Sleeper

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2014, 06:19:14 PM »
good patch,nothing else to add 8)

im guessing they decided to have a hardcoded principle for all future releases hence the Shikana/Bomber changes

Offline SDSakuragi

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2014, 06:22:59 PM »
Mad Monk not getting any changes? In most cases he is strictly better spontaneous combustion(4+ cost) plus vigilance body(3 cost). I understand what he will most likely be played in about one deck archetype, but even like that it's silly how overvalue he is. He is extremly good against anything what plays any offensive creatures and only counterplay to him i can see is not killing him or not playing any creatures. If it's generally considered what it is balanced card i would really like some comments on how is that. I honestly have more problems with mill because of all random undodgeable removals and AoE and not because of endless deck. I appreciate gather thoughts nerf, but i wonder if it will be really enough or if it will even change anything at all.

Actually the counterplay to mad monk is to play as many creatures as possible or to have some really fat commanders to soak up some of the randomness. As for balance, remember that he is a 2 Purity Unique Character. Being 2 Purity severely limits the decks that he can be put into. Plus if you compare him to something like Sacullas or Lucca, his ability is nowhere near as far reaching or consistently effective.

As for the "mill" deck, what LM has done is removed some of the cheese factor to it with the Gather Thought change. Stall as a tactic unfortunately cannot be removed from a game as it would unbalance the game in favor of midrange decks way too much. Also without some form of stall, combo decks would also be completely non-viable, and the only 2 deck archetypes would be aggro and midrange, in which midrange would, more often than not, just eat aggro alive.

Offline Logadd

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2014, 07:05:12 PM »
It's still card with 7+ cost value and 4 cost on it. Unlike Sacullas and Lucca where you actually need atleast 2+ creatures for them to be worth the price he will do 16 damage if your opponent will have anything with enough health. For Sacullas and Lucca you need to build the board to be rewarded for it, for mad monk you don't need anything, but your opponent will suffer if he have anything. About purity argument, is still have too much value for double purity, it's like saying what double purity CoV superlightning blast doing 8 damage for 1 mana would be fine.

My problem with mill isn't stall, i said nothing about stall. My problem is undodgeable removals where it doesn't really matter what you are doing, only what cards your opponent have and how random will roll for him.

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2014, 08:23:08 PM »
It's still card with 7+ cost value and 4 cost on it. Unlike Sacullas and Lucca where you actually need atleast 2+ creatures for them to be worth the price he will do 16 damage if your opponent will have anything with enough health. For Sacullas and Lucca you need to build the board to be rewarded for it, for mad monk you don't need anything, but your opponent will suffer if he have anything. About purity argument, is still have too much value for double purity, it's like saying what double purity CoV superlightning blast doing 8 damage for 1 mana would be fine.

My problem with mill isn't stall, i said nothing about stall. My problem is undodgeable removals where it doesn't really matter what you are doing, only what cards your opponent have and how random will roll for him.

I appreciate your concerns. The only thing that I can say to this topic is that this is not an issue where Lightmare needs to step in and forcibly change a concept. Yes, Mad Monk is good. Darn good perhaps. However there was synergy within a deck that made him stronger than he needed to be, that's not Mad Monk's fault, he's just mad.

Balance is a very delicate concept, we can't just dip our hands into everything whenever we feel like it. Your concerns are valid though, but kneejerk reactions make for bad decisions. We have to be patient and see how things play out.
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Offline Palaxar

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2014, 08:35:02 PM »
Awesome patch notes, I gotta say, I really like the timeliness of these patch notes. I much rather prefer a medium sized patch every 2 weeks than a huge patch once a month. Also very happy to see Lightmare is KINDA opening up to going back and changing old cards(like Gather Thoughts for example). Also, did I miss it, or where is it stated that Leaping Tiger no longer has haste? was that in hotfix notes that I missed or something?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 08:39:59 PM by Palaxar »
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Offline Teremus

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2014, 08:52:26 PM »
Quote from: Symphony
As a last note, any news about the Opponent has ended turn indicator?

It's not there. It was a conscious design choice with the new UI back when that patch was made. I apologize if that wasn't communicated, but yeah it doesn't exist anymore. We didn't think it was right over a digital game to have the knowledge of when your opponent ended your turn given the extreme implications of simultaneous thinking.

Quote from: Nekelkosh
Any news on the Swarmer Memory Leak and Full Screen resolution things?

I believe those are still on the docket and weren't able to be resolved for this cycle.

Quote from: Qfasa
Next thing I would like to see from LM is how they stop to label something as an "exceptionally exciting piece of news". Last time I saw words like these it turned out to be the "Star Trek" set. Not exactly an "exceptionally exciting piece of news" for many of us and what could be worse than a hype which wasn't justified. Just a comment, not even criticism.

While I can understand your concern, here's why I said that. I said it because I personally was REALLY PUFFING excited when I heard the news. So....I'm calling it exciting. Because I'm excited. *Folds arms over chest*

Quote from: RatKing
I notice nothing about the diminishing returns of EXP in Invite and M/A Games in these notes... is this because Schumi's thread (http://forum.lightmare.com.au/index.php?topic=62331.0) already covers that for this upcoming patch? Just curious, because it's still very broken (one game max @ 500 EXP, the next being half that, the next almost nothing, and every game after giving nothing) and ruins the game for people who prefer to play with their friends / randoms via Invite Games instead of waiting through very long queue times.*

Although you're just a Rat and I can't possibly fathom how you got up on the keyboard to type this message to me (lol), I will ask for you and try and get some proper information. I don't want to answer something I can't respond to with absolute certainty.

Quote from: SDSakuragi
One potential issue I'm looking at is that having preemptive ability cards resolve before abilities triggered by zone changes is the functional nerfs that will be suffered by existing combos and interactions, namely ones involving Controlled Temporal Anomaly. One of the reasons Sacullas used to be so scary was because you could play him and bounce him with CTA on the same turn effectively triggering his ability twice on the turn he is played. This could possibly slow down aggro much more than when Sacullas was moved from 1 Purity to 2 Purity. And in a meta where people are already complaining about stall decks, slowing aggro further could potentially make stall even harder to deal with.

I think you're misunderstanding. There was a change in 0.98 that flipped these two for the sake of getting everything properly in line with what was expected by design. This caused gaps in the counterplay available in Infinity Wars that made for some major imbalances we didn't like. We're now altering the way this works (not a reversion), because we wanted to improve the health of combat, while keeping everything in line with our design. This is a major step forward with it.

My statement:

I want to assure everyone of one thing really quick. The change to Shikana and Bomb-Bot was healthy in terms of design. Making things work as they seemingly should is wonderful. Moving forward, I can promise you that I've heard everyone's concerns and we will be keeping these two cards on our radar. I will be happy to listen to feedback once the patch has hit and we will act as necessary or not at all depending on the outcome.

I appreciate everyone's feedback. It means a lot to us. Thanks!
No seriously, I really like cheese.

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Offline nickellicker

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2014, 09:04:50 PM »

It's not there. It was a conscious design choice with the new UI back when that patch was made. I apologize if that wasn't communicated, but yeah it doesn't exist anymore. We didn't think it was right over a digital game to have the knowledge of when your opponent ended your turn given the extreme implications of simultaneous thinking.


On that note what about not showing which cards are chosen by dark wish / recycle etc?

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2014, 09:30:37 PM »
I'm not entirely sure of the intention there, I'd have to ask. As of current they're *not* shown to your opponent, right?
No seriously, I really like cheese.

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Offline Darknova

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2014, 09:34:04 PM »
I'm looking forward to the change to Hidden by Clouds. It might make it worth playing again. At least it shows a little love to warpath :D

Offline SDSakuragi

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2014, 09:53:24 PM »

It's not there. It was a conscious design choice with the new UI back when that patch was made. I apologize if that wasn't communicated, but yeah it doesn't exist anymore. We didn't think it was right over a digital game to have the knowledge of when your opponent ended your turn given the extreme implications of simultaneous thinking.


On that note what about not showing which cards are chosen by dark wish / recycle etc?

I actually use the fact that they can see, to terrorize my opponent. I've Darked Wish for an Oblivion before and then beat their faces in because they were afraid to commit any more blockers to the board. With Recycle you may as well show it, otherwise some tryhard is going to start keeping a written list of your graveyard to try and figure out what cards you Recycle, that's just needlessly slowing down the game.

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2014, 09:55:23 PM »
I notice nothing about the diminishing returns of EXP in Invite and M/A Games in these notes... is this because Schumi's thread (http://forum.lightmare.com.au/index.php?topic=62331.0) already covers that for this upcoming patch? Just curious, because it's still very broken (one game max @ 500 EXP, the next being half that, the next almost nothing, and every game after giving nothing) and ruins the game for people who prefer to play with their friends / randoms via Invite Games instead of waiting through very long queue times.*

(* Queue times aren't ALWAYS terrible, but it entirely depends on what time of day you play.)

Okay so I got some more information for you. It seems this *is* connected to the concept Schumi discussed in that thread. Having our Web Dev look through various pieces of information related to your account gave him some exceptionally useful tidbits of information to improve the detection algorithm.

So yes it's connected, and thank you very much for speaking up. It's going to help us a lot.
No seriously, I really like cheese.

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Offline Heart

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2014, 10:03:43 PM »
I still disagree with the design implementation of the bombbot shikana changes. Anything that reduces counterplay and skill/thinking is a bad decision and will always be considered such.

Also what do I have to do to convince Lightmare that taking out the end turn indicator is the worst decision besides star trek that this game has made.
All the positives this mechanic offers far and above outweighs anything that taking it out has done. Do i need to need to create a new thread and make a poll from the players to find out everyone;s opinion on the change?
I haven't seen any improvements since taking it out, personally things feel even slower than before now that you have literally no idea when your opponent has ended.
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Offline RatKing

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Re: [Early Patch Notes] Version 0.98.5
« Reply #44 on: August 18, 2014, 10:19:33 PM »
I notice nothing about the diminishing returns of EXP in Invite and M/A Games in these notes... is this because Schumi's thread (http://forum.lightmare.com.au/index.php?topic=62331.0) already covers that for this upcoming patch? Just curious, because it's still very broken (one game max @ 500 EXP, the next being half that, the next almost nothing, and every game after giving nothing) and ruins the game for people who prefer to play with their friends / randoms via Invite Games instead of waiting through very long queue times.*

(* Queue times aren't ALWAYS terrible, but it entirely depends on what time of day you play.)

Okay so I got some more information for you. It seems this *is* connected to the concept Schumi discussed in that thread. Having our Web Dev look through various pieces of information related to your account gave him some exceptionally useful tidbits of information to improve the detection algorithm.

So yes it's connected, and thank you very much for speaking up. It's going to help us a lot.

That's cool, glad I could be of help. :P

Will changes to the algorithm take place in this patch, per chance? I miss being able to play with friends whilst also grinding EXP. Got to love those freebie level-up boosters!

Thanks for the swift reply. =)