Poll

Does Verore Magic Siphoner need a change? If so, what do you suggest?

Yes, reduce power increment it gains per ability.
8 (14.3%)
Yes, increase its Morale Cost.
3 (5.4%)
Yes, increase its Resource Cost.
0 (0%)
Yes, change the way how its ability activates (e.g. additional cost).
2 (3.6%)
Yes, completely overhaul its ability and replace it with a new one.
0 (0%)
Yes, change it's Purity to 2 or 3.
5 (8.9%)
No, it does not need a change.
38 (67.9%)
Other (please specify in comments).
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 47

Author Topic: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner  (Read 2086 times)

Offline CommunistMountain

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I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« on: August 12, 2014, 09:38:58 AM »
After you have voted, if you don't mind, please state why in the comments. Your input would be greatly appreciated by the community as a whole. I have allowed a maximum of 6 votes, if you're someone who would want to nerf Siphoner to oblivion (no pun), and also changes to your vote.

So, for those unfamiliar with Siphoner, i'll introduce its stats: Cost: 3, Morale: 5, Purity: 1, Power: 2, Health: 6. Ability: Whenever you would play an ability card, Verore Magic Siphoner gains +8/+0 until the end of the turn.

The main problem I see lies with it's ability. For instance, +8/+0 per ability means +24/+0 for 3 abilities, which can be pulled off by any deck consisting of cheap abilities. Once, I played 4 abilities with 2 Siphoners in the Assault Zone, resulting in a whooping 68 damage just from 2 characters, and destroying my opponent's fortress without him even anticipating it.

Just to help you visualise, think of it like this: when you play an ability, it gains an additional effect which says "add +8/+0 to all Siphoners in play". For no cost at all (apart from the initial Siphoner cost). Also, you know what else is +8/+0 for a turn? Brutality, a cost 2 Warpath ability. Essentially, you're adding a 2 Resource value to every ability card you play for every Siphoner in play.

My suggestion is to change the way Siphoner's ability activates, and reduce how much its power is increased.

Firstly, reduce it to +6/+0 per turn, or a 25% decrease in power boost.

Secondly, Siphoner's ability requires you to pay [strike]2[/strike]1 (editted) first, not only as an additional cost, but also to limit the number of abilities which can be used with Siphoner. However, since Siphoner's power boost isn't free anymore, he is rendered weak when it comes to combat, and essentially a 2/6 (identical to Jinhai Militia) for 3 Resources. Changing his stats to 6/6 should do the trick.

So what's your opinion?

Edit: I found the 2 Purity idea really good after some thinking, that could work too, just remove the additional cost nerf above and it's good.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 08:26:03 AM by CommunistMountain »

Offline Aussiebumbum

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 10:03:25 AM »
The trade off with this card is it's very weak and can be killed by pretty much every 3 cost card.

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 10:10:45 AM »
The trade off with this card is it's very weak and can be killed by pretty much every 3 cost card.
Well, you can say the same with any other character with health at 8 or less, and with no abilities like Untouchable and Cannot be Killed by Non–damage Sources. It's weaknesses don't change when compared to such cards. However, it's strength is incomparable.

Offline Abyss

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 10:22:34 AM »
At some point, Verore needs to actually win the game. Siphoner is a way they can do that while engaging in actual combat, not 'stall until board wipe' or winning via morale.

If your opponent is allowing you to a) Keep multiple Siphoner's on the board, b) not block/not block with enough defenders to stop Siphoners, c) let you stock enough cards in hand to play multiple spells in a turn, and d) lets you get enough resources to play multiple spells in a turn....then they probably deserve to lose. Yes, sometimes you'll pull off some wins out of no where, but it's in no way reliable.

There's also the fact that they're pretty useless unless you're managing to buff them, so it's a reasonable trade off.

Granted, I'd be happy for Siphoner's to get some kind of limitation (probably a cap on buff size), but only if Verore had some actual combat presence. Right now, they simply can't compete, so they've got to rely on things like Siphoner. Though, one realistic option would be to change it to dual Verore purity - making it less open for abuse by aggro decks.


Offline MrFahrenheit

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 11:51:31 AM »
I like them as they are. I rarely use them myself but, they are almost always interesting to fight. They have to really earn that big swing and having to weigh whether or not to expose your cards to kill spells trying to defend against a card that spends most of the time in support is the type of mind games I really like to see.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 11:54:29 AM by MrFahrenheit »

Offline Swiftwynd

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 12:36:49 PM »
The only thing I think might be justified is a slight bump in their morale cost.

These can easily be single turn game winners, and as such the opponent should be deeply rewarded for managing to neutralize them.

From a single purity issue, I think Verore Kidnapper is far more in need of a 2 Purity given how ubiquitously potent its effect is.

Offline Tyroki

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2014, 12:50:53 PM »
There are far more problematic cards than Siphoner :\
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Offline Bactrian

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2014, 01:30:58 PM »
Siphoner is a strong, but balanced card.

Keep in mind:
1. You can pretty much estimate the threat by looking at hand size and resource count
2. It's not that hard to trade characters with it, and Siphoner decks can struggle if they lose a couple of siphoners since they are usually the main win condition
3. Vulnerable to removal with fairly low HP
4. Various combos (e.g., Mass Death + Word of Command) aren't as threatening as stuff like Tome of the Dead + Infested Knight which hits the same turn (potentially), and getting Siphoner through normally requires card advantage (which usually means landing Desolates or Mass Death, or multiple Heat Waves).

Offline CommunistMountain

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2014, 01:33:24 PM »
There are far more problematic cards than Siphoner :\

I decided to make a poll about the balance of Siphoner rather than other cards. It's not a crime. :/

Siphoner is a strong, but balanced card.

Keep in mind:
1. You can pretty much estimate the threat by looking at hand size and resource count
2. It's not that hard to trade characters with it, and Siphoner decks can struggle if they lose a couple of siphoners since they are usually the main win condition
3. Vulnerable to removal with fairly low HP
4. Various combos (e.g., Mass Death + Word of Command) aren't as threatening as stuff like Tome of the Dead + Infested Knight which hits the same turn (potentially), and getting Siphoner through normally requires card advantage (which usually means landing Desolates or Mass Death, or multiple Heat Waves).

1: Anticipating it doesn't make it any different from other characters, you can anticipate anything. I don't know why you listed this as a reason why it isn't strong.
2 and 3:  As I've said above, you can say that to any character with 8 Health or less (threshold for a cheap damage ability, like Banish) and without Untouchable or Cannot be Killed by Non–damage Sources, doesn't make Siphoner any weaker than these characters, I don't know why this is listed as a reason as well.
4. Same as 1, 2 and 3.

The thing is, it's weaknesses aren't extraordinary while it's strengths are. I see this as an imbalance.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 01:53:52 PM by CommunistMountain »

Offline aldin

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2014, 02:52:03 PM »
Pretty much any deck I put together has an answer for Verore Magic Siphoner.  I think there are some impressive possible combos, especially ones that involve splashing FD for Ferocity to make it a surprise, but nothing that stands out as particularly terrifying compared to other high-end combinations of cards.
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Offline Screamindiz

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2014, 04:09:25 PM »
Brutal Siphoner combos can be made especially with a WP splash. It seems the single purity WP is generally looked upon as lackluster, but with Siphoners it seems like it is a potent combination. When you have an Aleta Caretaker in command buffing the health of your Siphoners combined with Brutality and Unstoppable buff combos (not to mention the occassional Fight to bypass certain blockers) it is very easy and extremely cheap to get a few giant attackers by turn 5.  I don't see any reason to change anything about the Siphoners as it is, but I would love to hear about some of the combos people are running to get the most out of their Siphoners.

Offline Benionin

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2014, 06:07:03 PM »
Siphoner decks strike me as combo decks--like Orion decks that power out Mega Units. If they're disrupted, it's hard for them to come back. If they go off, they do really well.

And yeah, it strikes me that the best way to use Siphoners is 2 in command, 3 in deck, with an Aleta Caretaker to buff up the ones in command. Then use cheap abilities (there are plenty in WP and Verore), particularly Unstoppable, and kapooey. It's explosive, but I don't think it warrants any particular change. I've only run into one, and that was in an invite game where the player was showing off their combo (this was way back before Ascension, though). Of course, I haven't been playing too much PVP lately so maybe they took off again.
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Offline DrayGon777

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2014, 10:35:18 PM »
Unless I'm mistaken, Siphoner decks tend to play somewhat light on characters in order to have the ability to get the ability cards that buff it. This means that the Siphoners will be their main win condition with Morale being a potential secondary. I've got two decks so far, though I know of a third potentially devestating one. One is triple Verore with as much removal as I can fit and lots of low cost cards (without sacrificing as I don't have many characters). I have three siphoners in command and about the only other character I run is Rita for card draw. The goal is to use combos such as Mass Death and Word of Command to push a Siphoner out to deal a fair amount of damage to the opponent's fortress. My second deck takes a Siphoner out and splashes FD in as they have a lot of cheap ability cards that also make way for the siphoners to hit the fortress. The third which I haven't built but have heard about is kind of a Siphoner/Infested Knight combo deck. Siphoners are in for early aggression using Fear instead of Mass Death followed by Word of Command. The same combo is also used late game with Infested Knight once you get a fair amount of characters in the graveyard.
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Offline The_Fallen

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2014, 08:08:29 AM »
Siphoner decks are decks, which are build around that card. It is not possible to autoinclude siphoners into verore splash. Therefore this card is not crazy. Especially after they nerfed the aether acolyte.
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Offline Groove Wizard

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Re: I Want The Community's Opinion On Verore Magic Siphoner
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2014, 08:05:46 PM »
The difference between Siphoner and Brutality is the element of surprise. Brutality can be devastating when played on a character with infect/haste/vigilance etc. Siphoner doesn't have that kind of flexibility, and once it's out on the field you know what to expect.