Author Topic: Balance Dev Report  (Read 5229 times)

Offline The_Fallen

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2014, 07:51:09 AM »
Yeah the ones who did the Verore balance changes, besides dark wish, are not quite *insert generic positive term here*.

As I posted in the patch notes thread. Some balance changes are indeed well thought of: Lucca, Sacullas, Dark wish, Xi tokens now giving moral loss.

But the two above are simply bad and let my explain why:

Verore the lone keep is simply useless now. You played it to lose less life, not to lose life and die to a sacullas. And as someone else posted, if the enemy doesn't play location killing cards, then he should pay the price. It's the same as I would say untapped wilderness now costs 1 ressource to give 1 ressource bonus this turn. Yeah....

Demon of Fear, was powerful, but only versus certain decks. Decreasing his stats and giving him more cost ist just way over the top. Do one of them with moral cost reduction and he will be at least be playable.

And the Lanstead change was simply to prevent crashes, but at the same time rendered 2 Decks useless. Massive Buff with Lucca, which got nerfed anyway and shieldgenerator decks. Again I wonder, who suggested this change and who aggreed not thinking a little bit about the cards this would effect too.
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Offline Heart

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2014, 08:04:22 AM »
Yeah the ones who did the Verore balance changes, besides dark wish, are not quite *insert generic positive term here*.

As I posted in the patch notes thread. Some balance changes are indeed well thought of: Lucca, Sacullas, Dark wish, Xi tokens now giving moral loss.

But the two above are simply bad and let my explain why:

Verore the lone keep is simply useless now. You played it to lose less life, not to lose life and die to a sacullas. And as someone else posted, if the enemy doesn't play location killing cards, then he should pay the price. It's the same as I would say untapped wilderness now costs 1 ressource to give 1 ressource bonus this turn. Yeah....

Demon of Fear, was powerful, but only versus certain decks. Decreasing his stats and giving him more cost ist just way over the top. Do one of them with moral cost reduction and he will be at least be playable.

And the Lanstead change was simply to prevent crashes, but at the same time rendered 2 Decks useless. Massive Buff with Lucca, which got nerfed anyway and shieldgenerator decks. Again I wonder, who suggested this change and who aggreed not thinking a little bit about the cards this would effect too.

It's like they took demon of fear and said, How can we make this card unplayable? Lets gut its stats as well as increase it's costs and also leave its huge morale cost. Someone in lightmare probably lost to a demon of fear once :P.  But seriously. Like an 8/8 or 7/9 at the very least would have been enough with the increase in cost. Its now easier to just play mass death and word of command, etc, etc.
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Offline Adorabear

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2014, 09:45:20 AM »
The verore changes do a lot to reduce the power of 2 Purity Verore, but it doesn't look like it changes much for triple verore, which seems far more troublesome than the Hydra/Yuanshi decks.

Triple verore is not troublesome
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Offline Aberion

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2014, 11:01:31 AM »
Great seeing that my Saccullas nerf-suggestion was applied! Would be way too sad if his actual ability had been nerfed.

On that note .. Hydra and Dark Wish nerfs are great as well, Veroria not so sure yet.
But Demon Of Fear? Whoa .. thats a hard nerf. Hope youre still considering buffing cards that were nerfed too hard, because I suspect Demon Of Fear could be one who got nerfed a little bit too much.
(the increase in cost also increases what you have to spent to actually use his ability, not kewl)

Offline Nefczi

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2014, 12:20:05 PM »
I think all those changes are great, despite the fact that all few decks that I managed to build since I started playing got nerfed pretty hard and despite I just spend 17k IP on a rift run deck just to get 4 Demons of Fear  :P
Gonna have to start building new decks, but thats fine :)

The only gripe I have with this patch is that they didnt do any change to Recycle and Gather Thoughts. Seriously. Those cards should be removed from the game after playing them.



The verore changes do a lot to reduce the power of 2 Purity Verore, but it doesn't look like it changes much for triple verore, which seems far more troublesome than the Hydra/Yuanshi decks.

Triple verore is not troublesome

Oh yes it is... yes it is. There is a very "fun" tripple Verore heavy controlololo deck, that I seen few ppl from the top of ranked leaderboards play. It uses things like Annihilate, Dark Wish, Calamity, Mass Death and sometimes Oblivion, plus other Verore control cards with lower purity. That wouldnt be that bad on its own, but thats where Recycle + Gather Thoughts come into play.

Very powerfull deck which became even more powerfull cos most of those few decks that had a chance to beat it got nerfed quite hard in this patch. This deck also doesnt use nerfed cards like Demon of Fear, Hydra or Veroria so it wasnt affected negatively by the patch(beside slight nerf to Dar Wish).

Its not only very powerfull(OP ihmo), but is also a nightmare to play against. Its one of those decks that the owner is basically playing with himself as opponent cannot do anything unless he has a deck very specifically build to counter it. Thank got its quite "expensive" to build.

Offline Tyroki

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2014, 02:50:46 PM »
Yeah the ones who did the Verore balance changes, besides dark wish, are not quite *insert generic positive term here*.

As I posted in the patch notes thread. Some balance changes are indeed well thought of: Lucca, Sacullas, Dark wish, Xi tokens now giving moral loss.

But the two above are simply bad and let my explain why:

Verore the lone keep is simply useless now. You played it to lose less life, not to lose life and die to a sacullas. And as someone else posted, if the enemy doesn't play location killing cards, then he should pay the price. It's the same as I would say untapped wilderness now costs 1 ressource to give 1 ressource bonus this turn. Yeah....

Demon of Fear, was powerful, but only versus certain decks. Decreasing his stats and giving him more cost ist just way over the top. Do one of them with moral cost reduction and he will be at least be playable.

And the Lanstead change was simply to prevent crashes, but at the same time rendered 2 Decks useless. Massive Buff with Lucca, which got nerfed anyway and shieldgenerator decks. Again I wonder, who suggested this change and who aggreed not thinking a little bit about the cards this would effect too.

I agree they chopped too much off of Demon of Fear. However, I flat out disagree when it comes to Veroria now (bar the fact it's broken due to bug)
It now stops fliers too, and opens up a lot more in the way of mind games as has been stated in the Veroria thread.

I also like the new Lanstead, even if it is a little bit on the slow side (could use a one point price reduction somewhere, ability or card itself)

Turning a weeny in to a giant monster from a giant monster I prepared earlier? Awesome.

Turning your giant monster into a weeny? Priceless.
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Offline Symphony

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2014, 03:03:44 PM »
Okay, add another one to the nitpickers!

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Veroria the Lone Keep
I like it. I really do. It became a more mindgames card and the effect isn't as gamebreaking as it was before. I believe it will still see plenty of use.

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Demon of Fear
Urg. Was that big of a nerf really needed? Lower the stats AND up the cost WITHOUT changing morale cost? Sigh.

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Verorian Hydra
Eh, even though I never liked facing Hydras (screw Yuanshi Hydras), hydra's effect doesn't make up for the fact it's a 10/10 for 6. 10 damage is fine, 10 HP isn't. I can be very easily removed with a single attacker now, and if you don't buff their HP, welp, it's gonna die.

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Dark Wish
Let's be honest, DW had it coming AGES ago. Is the card any less useful? Not at all.

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[...]meant that a triple Verore player only had to stave off defeat for five or six turns before being able to efficiently turn the tides of battle with its efficient large characters
Except, aside from DarkWish, you have basically hurt any other deck splashing 1~2CoV badly. And triple CoV was never worse than 1~2CoV.

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Sacullas
While the turn resolution order has been fixed and the purity increase does help, NOT upping token generators to 2 purity doesn't solve many problems :/

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Lucca
Turn resolution fix + slight nerf. Awesome. Lucca also had it coming ages ago +4/+4, preemptive buffing in this current fast GI meta was too much bs. +3/+3 is still quite strong, but one nerf at a time, right?

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Lanstead
I hate to get into the rage-wagon, but completely changing an old card's effect is pretty freaking lame. Lanstead's been in the game since Rise and was one of the key components in a deck. It worked like it was supposed to and there were no complaints about how it did. Just because Lanstead allowed a great number of characters to be spawned and the dev team didn't like it doesn't mean the best option is to completely remake the card after almost a year it was launched. For example, you could've restricted the amount of characters it can summon at a time, if client crashing is your concern.

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Prophet Karani
While I do agree with the cost raise (a bit. Not being able to do much until you're at 5 resources is still kinda lame, but meh), the stat drop was unnecessary. At 8 health, you're basically forced to run a Caretaker in command in order to not see your Karani dead by turn 3. Completely susceptible to Banish, any deck splashing CoV is probably running 3 lightning blasts anyways, she now dies to 2 yuanshis, mark of the demon or basically any target removal. 8 health is just too low. Even 9 would be a better number. Meh. Again.

Quote
Virus of Avarrach
A card that saw almost 0 play will continue to see almost 0 play. Nothing to see here :/


Overall, I also dislike the balancing changes. While some of them were warranted and we saw them coming ages ago, others were just too drastic :/

Offline Best Sakuya NA

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2014, 12:20:07 AM »
I guess it's just hard to understand the intent of the changes, since they feel a bit misplaced. If you want to nerf Verore, which is fine, just like nerfing or buffing any faction, there are better options than cards that are literally never used in Triple Verore anymore (Hydra, Demon of Fear, Veroria), which are primarily used in Double Verore / Single Flame Dawn (Heartbreak deck). Heartbreak was hit hard by this, and nerfed successfully if that was the intent. Heartbreak is currently unplayable due to those changes, and even without the nerfs can no longer be built with Sacullas due to purity increase.

However, if the intent was to nerf Triple Verore decks, this patch did not address that deck or what makes it strong in competitive play, and during this patch that deck will continue to be played effectively. Triple Warped Swarmer -> midgame control -> Oblivion was not affected significantly by any of the Verore changes in this patch, which includes the changes for Dark wish, the only card  used in that deck that is pertinent to the patch in question (the 16/16 to 10/10 is fairly irrelevant since Triple Verore is more interested in Draw 3 and Draw Target card from Deck, generally speaking, to obtain ability cards to help them push towards Oblivion becoming castable). If I am understanding the intent of these changes, Verore was considered a strong faction by many players, and this patch sought to address that, but instead it only seems to have hit Double Verore / Single [other faction] decks, and not Pure Verore. Better targets for adjusting Pure Verore's strength would be

  • Warped Swarmers, which when used in Command allow them to fight off their supposed Aggro counterpick far better than they had been able to directly prior to their addition to the game
  • Annihilate, where a resource cost increase of +1 could be tested to see if it encourages more use of lower cost Abilities over a relatively economically priced one that can target Command/Support
  • Oblivion, where the forced hand discard effect could be adjusted to see if it allows for more counterplay post-Oblivion, since Warped Swarmers allow Pure Verore to get to that stage against Aggro more often than is likely intended

The act of nerfing and buffing cards is fine, obviously. I see that every day in many games that I currently play, and that is how balancing things in these kinds of games works 100%. Among other things, I run the Ladder map system in a strategy game, and am used to making the kinds of decisions you wonderful people have made here. The trick is to adjust the correct cards to deal with the problems as efficiently as possible. Right now Demon of Fear, Veroria, and Hydra are not what make Pure Verore solid. This puzzles me since some Verore styles in the competitive meta, in particular splashed Verore, were targeted, whereas Pure Verore was not, somewhat implying that one was problematic when the other was not when both have similar (certainly distinct in key ways, but) control options coupled with a strong endgame, which as I understand it was the problem people had with the faction in the first place.



Finally, if the intent was instead to shift the style of play of the various factions entirely towards new playstyles rather than focusing on balance, then I suppose multiple core decks in a complex counter/countered network at top level play were just some of the casualties of that change. This, along with the Karani change, is worrying in that the top level meta was at a very solid, very fun location in the previous patch, and this patch has removed several meta deck entirely (Heartbreak, Nazirite's Xi Ascended deck, FD/GI/SoA), while others were removed or significantly nerfed into poorer matchups than they already had (Turbo Ramp Karani).

As always though, the bugfixing and UI changes have been great so far.

Again, if Double Verore was the target, you guys nailed it. I don't think it was necessary in the slightest but you have successfully nerfed my favorite deck with one of the most interesting potentials for back and forth mirror matches. I recently talked to -thegame-, the current rank 1 Constructed player, and they had essentially come to the same conclusion, hopefully they post here at some point. Demon of Fear is now removed from competitive play, and I plan on switching to Flame Dawn / Genesis and Triple Verore for the time being until the actual meta settles, since both are still very powerful, just like the decks that were removed from competitive play, and as an additional bonus I now don't have to worry about Warpath outscaling Aggro like it probably should or Heartbreak flying over my Warped Swarmers like they probably should.

But it is very nice that you at least explained your reasoning behind the changes, and I do wholeheartedly appreciate that. That is a tremendous step forward, even if the balance notes were only shown midway through the patch itself (which is less than ideal when compared to many, many other similarly structured games), it is better than no patch notes, certainly. I hope that this practice continues in the future.

Offline The_Fallen

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2014, 02:42:48 PM »
I wonder if we get a response from Poga.
Still waiting. Hope declining.

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Offline Palaxar

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2014, 03:53:08 AM »
I guess it's just hard to understand the intent of the changes, since they feel a bit misplaced. If you want to nerf Verore, which is fine, just like nerfing or buffing any faction, there are better options than cards that are literally never used in Triple Verore anymore (Hydra, Demon of Fear, Veroria), which are primarily used in Double Verore / Single Flame Dawn (Heartbreak deck). Heartbreak was hit hard by this, and nerfed successfully if that was the intent. Heartbreak is currently unplayable due to those changes, and even without the nerfs can no longer be built with Sacullas due to purity increase.

However, if the intent was to nerf Triple Verore decks, this patch did not address that deck or what makes it strong in competitive play, and during this patch that deck will continue to be played effectively. Triple Warped Swarmer -> midgame control -> Oblivion was not affected significantly by any of the Verore changes in this patch, which includes the changes for Dark wish, the only card  used in that deck that is pertinent to the patch in question (the 16/16 to 10/10 is fairly irrelevant since Triple Verore is more interested in Draw 3 and Draw Target card from Deck, generally speaking, to obtain ability cards to help them push towards Oblivion becoming castable). If I am understanding the intent of these changes, Verore was considered a strong faction by many players, and this patch sought to address that, but instead it only seems to have hit Double Verore / Single [other faction] decks, and not Pure Verore. Better targets for adjusting Pure Verore's strength would be

  • Warped Swarmers, which when used in Command allow them to fight off their supposed Aggro counterpick far better than they had been able to directly prior to their addition to the game
  • Annihilate, where a resource cost increase of +1 could be tested to see if it encourages more use of lower cost Abilities over a relatively economically priced one that can target Command/Support
  • Oblivion, where the forced hand discard effect could be adjusted to see if it allows for more counterplay post-Oblivion, since Warped Swarmers allow Pure Verore to get to that stage against Aggro more often than is likely intended

The act of nerfing and buffing cards is fine, obviously. I see that every day in many games that I currently play, and that is how balancing things in these kinds of games works 100%. Among other things, I run the Ladder map system in a strategy game, and am used to making the kinds of decisions you wonderful people have made here. The trick is to adjust the correct cards to deal with the problems as efficiently as possible. Right now Demon of Fear, Veroria, and Hydra are not what make Pure Verore solid. This puzzles me since some Verore styles in the competitive meta, in particular splashed Verore, were targeted, whereas Pure Verore was not, somewhat implying that one was problematic when the other was not when both have similar (certainly distinct in key ways, but) control options coupled with a strong endgame, which as I understand it was the problem people had with the faction in the first place.



Finally, if the intent was instead to shift the style of play of the various factions entirely towards new playstyles rather than focusing on balance, then I suppose multiple core decks in a complex counter/countered network at top level play were just some of the casualties of that change. This, along with the Karani change, is worrying in that the top level meta was at a very solid, very fun location in the previous patch, and this patch has removed several meta deck entirely (Heartbreak, Nazirite's Xi Ascended deck, FD/GI/SoA), while others were removed or significantly nerfed into poorer matchups than they already had (Turbo Ramp Karani).

As always though, the bugfixing and UI changes have been great so far.

Again, if Double Verore was the target, you guys nailed it. I don't think it was necessary in the slightest but you have successfully nerfed my favorite deck with one of the most interesting potentials for back and forth mirror matches. I recently talked to -thegame-, the current rank 1 Constructed player, and they had essentially come to the same conclusion, hopefully they post here at some point. Demon of Fear is now removed from competitive play, and I plan on switching to Flame Dawn / Genesis and Triple Verore for the time being until the actual meta settles, since both are still very powerful, just like the decks that were removed from competitive play, and as an additional bonus I now don't have to worry about Warpath outscaling Aggro like it probably should or Heartbreak flying over my Warped Swarmers like they probably should.

But it is very nice that you at least explained your reasoning behind the changes, and I do wholeheartedly appreciate that. That is a tremendous step forward, even if the balance notes were only shown midway through the patch itself (which is less than ideal when compared to many, many other similarly structured games), it is better than no patch notes, certainly. I hope that this practice continues in the future.
Have you even tried making a new deck from the ground up that uses Demon of Fear? I haven't visited your very much post-patch, so I might've missed it if you did, but from what I could tell, you were dead-set on not using him without even trying to make a new deck that uses him.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 03:55:17 AM by Palaxar »
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Offline CyDrA

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2014, 12:57:03 PM »
Bump!!!

Well we cant burn our DoF's, guess we can trade them..... oh Puffy No one wants the unusable cards.

With the alt arts also released, I wonder was it worth breaking the NerfBat on DoF?


Offline Bactrian

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2014, 01:37:38 PM »
I've used 2x Demon of Fear in rifts and had no trouble getting to 9 wins with it. Honestly it's still pretty good, but now the focus is much more on its use as a late-game finisher rather than as a mid game utility/tempo + body. If you use it with that in mind it's still a pretty strong card.

Maybe it could be a 8/8 or 9/9 but at least in Rifts I've found it perfectly usable. Consecutive Demon of Fears is still as cheap as ever.

The other thing to keep in mind is that now it cannot be blocked with Deflect or Angelify.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2014, 01:50:50 PM by Bactrian »

Offline Fantatier

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2014, 04:52:09 PM »
I think overall the balancing measures are fine. I just dont completely understand the demon of fear nerf. He could have gone to 2 purity while remaining his body, or at least have gotten  a lower morale cost. And the new Veroria could have been a 4-drop imo.
My question is the following: Will there be any tweaking for the warped swarmers? I dont know the opinions out there but triple swarmers +3 in the deck seem to stall and mitigate every agressive beatdown plan.
Also Overseers as a whole faction seem to be kind of strong in comparison to the other factions. Especially precautionary measures is very strong imo.
Anyone agrees on this?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2014, 05:23:54 PM by Fantatier »

Offline JSlayerXero

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2014, 10:41:29 PM »
Precautionary Measures requires stocking characters in the graveyard, and field, having 6 resources to play it and having at least two purity into Overseers. Outside of Xi, the only real mass token spawning is Heaven's Assistance, and even then, Graverob will help to knock down the overall power of Precautionary Measures. Trust me, I know. >.<
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Offline trivialpursuit

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Re: Balance Dev Report
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2014, 01:47:41 AM »
I think overall the balancing measures are fine. I just dont completely understand the demon of fear nerf. He could have gone to 2 purity while remaining his body, or at least have gotten  a lower morale cost. And the new Veroria could have been a 4-drop imo.
My question is the following: Will there be any tweaking for the warped swarmers? I dont know the opinions out there but triple swarmers +3 in the deck seem to stall and mitigate every agressive beatdown plan.
Also Overseers as a whole faction seem to be kind of strong in comparison to the other factions. Especially precautionary measures is very strong imo.
Anyone agrees on this?

Precautionary Measures is extremely strong. It's essentially an overclock for all your creatures, which is crazy, but like mentioned there are ways to lessen its strength with graveyard hate. Of course, if you don't have room in your deck for those cards, then...