Author Topic: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1  (Read 12585 times)

Offline Teremus

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[Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« on: July 03, 2014, 12:27:21 AM »
Hello everyone,

This has been a long time coming, and I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed typing it.

This is the first Infinity Wars Dev Blog, titled Tipping the Scales.

There's been so many people concerned with balance, wanting to know what Lightmare is doing, what our plans are, what our train of thought is. This is for you, I hope it does the intended job.

Tipping the Scales
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Offline TimetoSplit

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2014, 12:39:26 AM »
Very interesting article, a good read and always nice to hear from the great Moose!  :D 

Offline Adorabear

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2014, 01:03:26 AM »
Mooooooooooooooooose! Glorious!
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Offline Antimony

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2014, 03:13:32 AM »
Great post, Teremus! You and Robbiesla made a lot of great points about how the openness of the metagame is a priority over the subjective idea of balance.

To me, Verore and Sleepers currently have become the most complete factions, each with an extensive toolkit to allow plenty of flexibility within their respective themes. The other factions seem to be a bit more constrained in that regard, limiting them more to playing in a certain way (DoD is the most guilty of this imho). If anything, I'd rather see the other factions get buffed cards in the future instead of nerfing anything we already have, since that would add to/change the metagame rather than take away from it. A good example of this already happening is with the Exiles, since the release of Ascension added enough cards to play them without requiring a Ritual Master in command as well as more removal abilities and demon-themed buffs. I'm super stoked as to what LM is going to do with the Overseers, too. :)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 03:15:52 AM by Antimony »
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Offline Cleanse

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 08:40:49 AM »
Just give us some decent, and preferably factionless, ability-hate.

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 08:43:09 AM »
Just give us some decent, and preferably factionless, ability-hate.

Balance is not created by giving another answer to an already existing answer. There's no "Simple" way to create balance.
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Offline Dreamplume

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2014, 08:47:38 AM »
Great post, Teremus! You and Robbiesla made a lot of great points about how the openness of the metagame is a priority over the subjective idea of balance.

To me, Verore and Sleepers currently have become the most complete factions, each with an extensive toolkit to allow plenty of flexibility within their respective themes. The other factions seem to be a bit more constrained in that regard, limiting them more to playing in a certain way (DoD is the most guilty of this imho). If anything, I'd rather see the other factions get buffed cards in the future instead of nerfing anything we already have, since that would add to/change the metagame rather than take away from it. A good example of this already happening is with the Exiles, since the release of Ascension added enough cards to play them without requiring a Ritual Master in command as well as more removal abilities and demon-themed buffs. I'm super stoked as to what LM is going to do with the Overseers, too. :)

I will agree with you, as for the sleepers being one of the most complete factions I wouldn't say that more like the warpath faction and Verore are at the top as being the most complete just over taking everything else.

I saw the section about Orion and the Mega Unit combo it is a powerful combo I can say that and hope it doesn't really get changed because it can be beaten so badly at the same time. I made a deck for it which has amazing success rate but I have lost a lot with it at the same time, factions such as the Warpath and Verore still counter it even a rush deck will be a problem. However I can see why this can upset the meta but look at the current decks that have such huge success like karani, Verore ability and others but not sure what else ether way GI now just got a deck on similar level, yes there is probably other strong GI decks but to me not on the level of that combo. To long have those faction and the amazing powerful decks they create overtake ranked play cause they are not easy decks to beat and with ascension they can be even more powerful.

In addition oh my overseer again why does everyone want to talk about changing them what is it with this want to nerf them when they are fine and well worked out. If this faction gets nerfed because of all the people asking for change to the smallest faction in game which I have said many times dragging them drown from being a tier two faction ("Just something in which I rate the faction in strength") then I will probably kill someone.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 09:27:27 AM by Dreamplume »

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 08:57:18 AM »
Quote from: Dreamplume
In addition oh my overseer again why does everyone want to talk about changing them what is it with this want to nerf them when they are fine and well worked out.

Please note that, in the article, nowhere did I actually state they're getting change or what will eventually occur. I never speculated any of that. I merely presented a concept of an issue commonly discussed.
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Offline Cleanse

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 09:15:34 AM »
Just give us some decent, and preferably factionless, ability-hate.

Balance is not created by giving another answer to an already existing answer. There's no "Simple" way to create balance.

That doesn't really make any sense. There's plenty of character-hate in the game, as well as a growing amount of artifact and location hate. But there's exactly one ability-hate card, Ancient Aether, and its a bit too situational at the moment, and is 2 purity.

Sure, there's a number of anti-kill spell options (a few more wouldn't hurt), but some general anti-spell spam would be nice.

I didn't even say what form this ability-hate would take, there's certainly plenty of creativity available. Nor was I suggesting it would be a "magic bullet" as you seem to be implying. In your analogy, I'm simply suggesting more tools be available to players when playing against different types of decks.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 09:26:03 AM by Cleanse »

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 09:29:36 AM »
We both seem to be discussing two very different topics.

My article covers an extremely broad range of topics, and the mentalities behind them. When I say "Balance" I do not refer to one specific subject within the whole.

What you're suggesting is fine, a more capable toolbox for each potential build. In it's infancy, there's no way for us to create that in Infinity Wars. A larger library with more fleshed out concepts needs to exist.

Like I said, what you're saying is perfectly fine. It just takes time to grow into those overall capabilities.

Edit:

You referenced character-kill abilities being an answer, in reference to my response to you. Characters are not an answer. There are two points to a chess match, Initiation and Response. A response can take shape in many different forms, however moving a pawn into a position to threaten your opponents board state is only ever initiation. An answer to an answer, is what you're referencing here.

While those are well and good, it's the same concept as what others may say with "MD isn't OP, just give an MD-like option to other factions" which doesn't actually address the underlying issue. There are many other factors to consider, and I tried to cover them as well as possible in my article.

Perhaps I didn't do that well enough, but the concept remains a global ideology rather than specifically to one subject within the whole.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 09:32:42 AM by Teremus »
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Offline Dreamplume

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 09:32:32 AM »
Quote from: Dreamplume
In addition oh my overseer again why does everyone want to talk about changing them what is it with this want to nerf them when they are fine and well worked out.

Please note that, in the article, nowhere did I actually state they're getting change or what will eventually occur. I never speculated any of that. I merely presented a concept of an issue commonly discussed.

Don't mean the article I mean people bringing overseer back up in the posts made. As one person said I look forward to what lightmare will do with the overseer faction to me is like saying I look forward to the change they are going to make. Whether it is a good change or bad I do not know the only thing I don't want to happen is from all this overseer hate they get dragged down lowering there level of strength they currently have.

Don't worry your article is perfectly fine and I like I do not want another overseer rampage on this thread so I am trying to put a full stop in it before that happens lol hopefully though.

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 09:33:26 AM »
Haha that's fair Dreamplume, I can understand that.
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Offline Cleanse

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 09:44:25 AM »
We both seem to be discussing two very different topics.

I think we might just agree on that...  ???

Offline Thechynd

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 09:46:47 AM »
I don't really see how you expect to be able to reduce Verore's toolkit without nerfing anything unless you just wait until cards rotate out or implement power creep for all the other factions. Even if you give them fewer pieces for their toolkit in the future, that won't remove their existing options.

I also think that regardless of balance concerns Dark Wish is a terribly designed card because the way it works in practice is completely contrary to what the card seems intended to do. Its clearly meant to be a card that gives you a wide variety of options to choose from, but that's irrelevant if one of those options is so overly strong for its cost compared with the others that it gets chosen more than 90% of the time. If that's meant to be acceptable then why doesn't Undeath Wish make something like a 16/16 with infect?

Offline Teremus

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Re: [Dev Blog] Moose Report #1
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 09:49:37 AM »
I never said anything about nerfing nothing. I tried to explain this concept as clearly as possible, and I'm not sure I did that to the best of my ability.

I'm talking about a very broad, overarcing ideology. I am, never, talking about one specific concept that needs to be changed or altered. Simply a train of thought, that guides us through each decision and how we approach various topics.

Please understand that this blog was in no way designed to state what is, or what is not happening. The sole intention was to convey our thought process, and mentalities to a community that has been seeking to connect with us deeper for quite some time.

Nerfs, or buffs, were not the subject of this article whatsoever.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 02:45:25 PM by Teremus »
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