Author Topic: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?  (Read 5861 times)

Offline TimetoSplit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
Yeah, but the supply bar has one really cool advantage, and that's helping with spells that cost 11 and over.  I feel that with Noble being a good card anyway, you can get "lucky" and just happen to cast a huge dragon for 11+ mana, or you might have to spend an entire turn doing nothing just to get that one extra resource.  I guess you could also use Varyus or draw some cards until you get a noble (assuming that your Nobles died or you have none out), but I like the supply bar idea because it makes it a lot more reasonable to play spells that cost over 10.  Maybe we could compromise, like if the temporary resources ONLY kicked in after you hit 10 resources, so it'd be a very minor benefit, but it'd allow you even to get to 13 or 14 resources if you didn't use the temporary resources in the mid to late game.  And that would be fantastic, because it would make unplayable cards into playable ones.

Offline Tyonidas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 666
  • I intend to live forever – so far, so good.
    • View Profile
Let me just play Devil's advocate here for a moment:

Supply bar filling? Really?

Where's the whole 'using your resources properly is a tactical decision' idea? Where's the min/maxing that you must do to even be remotely considered decent at games such as this?
I feel this is too simple, too forgiving a system. This sort of thing can be used tactically, sure, but it is also a tool for anyone who forgot to spend his resources properly and will not really get punished for it.

When your deck composition is not good you may find yourself with nothing to play on turn 1, or maybe a 2 cost card at turn 3, and so on. You need to make sure the deck has a nice resource-curve, and you need to use those resources properly or essentially 'lose' them if you don't. May I remind you that all of the abilities in the 'Trading Post' in play are ALREADY giving you options to act with spare resources (or sometimes, not so much spare, rather your need to draw a card or boost your future resources)?

I feel this is a bad idea, and if I sound harsh believe me - I'm a total noob when it comes to IW, but this feels too noob-friendly to me. We already have good mechanics to deal with spare resources, let's not make it any easier than it should be (and please - let's not make it an automatic, thoughtless, process that rewards you in the long run for being bad in the short run).

Everything he said is spot on.  There will be turns where resources don't get used, just part of the game.  You shouldn't be able to store those away for a rainy day.  Also, every card over 10 resources is usually beastly...hence the reason you need to plan ahead if you intend on using them...be it using Nobles or by purchasing a resource on a turn.

Offline Nerfles

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
    • View Profile
Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2013, 09:59:00 PM »
I think the REAL issue is the cards which cost >10

Ao Shun: DoD - 12
Good for card draw, unkillable unless you exile it but you want to drain your opponent's morale before then for sure.

Call of the Warpath: Warpath - 14
Play this, unless your opponent has a board wipe, it's game over.

Dragon of Summer Flame: FD - 11
FD doesn't get to turn 11.

Hidden by Clouds: Warpath - 13
Big meaty creature, WP can get here, but usually this is a walking target.

Mega Unit 02: Genesis - 13
Seen it twice, it got run over.

Subjugated Dragon: Cult - 11
This thing is awesome.

The Calamity: Factionless - 11
Crazy spell when played right.

The Virus of Avarrach: Sleepers - 14
Sleepers will never have the resources for this. I play sleepers, and once Patient Zero comes online, I am basically always using him, or something else, never get above 10 resources. Sleepers only has 1 spell above 10, and even then Patient Zero is 8, Hekeem is 7, and the important things are 6 or less.

In all fairness, I think increase to resources should be at 7. The justification behind this is most things happen at 3, and the next turn you will get your 8th resource (+1), so will be looking at 9, and you can have a giant power spike.

But as for the "wasted" resources, this is where strategy comes into play. Possibly having some way to dump extra resources might be an option, but I would like it from cards to be honest. More low cost commander choices.
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Nerfles

If I come off as a jerk, sorry! I am actually a really nice guy just tone is lost in text.

Offline Erlaya

  • Lightmare Support
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2013, 11:03:43 AM »
Dragon of Summer Flame: FD - 11
FD doesn't get to turn 11.

The best games I've had against other amazing players have been 15-20 turns long Flame Dawn vs X or Y with my Pure Flame Dawn deck.  Trust me there are plenty of chances to play Summer Flame or Agent Dragon in Flame Dawn as the playerbase gets better.

Offline DrayGon777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
  • Friendly Neighborhood Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: When is it ever worth it to pay 10 and increase your base resource by 1?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2013, 05:06:40 PM »
Not to mention many of the top players tend to run calamity anyways, so getting to 11 isn't that big of a problem.
Just so you guys know, if you're ever vs WWK, just start putting out random numbers and mathematical symbols, he will surrender.

Offline ArcaneAzmadi

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
    • View Profile
If I might revive this long-dead topic, I think the option to boost your resource still needs looking at. I NEVER use it unless I'm actually holding my Subjugated Dragon in my hand (and that's the only 11+ cost card I use at all). The real problem with it is that it's practically NEVER a good investment unless you've built your deck around absolutely huge-cost cards that NEED you to boost your resource. Even if I have nothing worth playing in my hand and nothing else to spend resource on, I'd always sooner spend my resource on cards draws than upgrading.

The problem is that using the resource upgrade option basically shuts you down for an entire turn. Unless you already have upgraded resources from Wealthy Noble, Brings Life By Passing or Growth, you can only afford a single 1-cost card or ability on that turn. That HURTS. The loss of tempo is massive, especially at that late stage of the game.

How about this: make the cost start at 8, but increase by +1 every time you do it (going from 10 to 11 costs 8R, going from 11 to 12 costs 9R etc). So you'll always have a bit more resource to spare after upgrading (there's a world of difference between 1 and 2 resource) but it won't get easier to "snowball" your resources.

Sorry if I'm committing a faux paux by reviving this topic, but it's so near the top of this subforum (not a lot gets posted here) that I can't see the harm of it.
Always expect the worst and you can only be pleasantly surprised.

Offline Erlaya

  • Lightmare Support
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
I actually feel that to some effect the cost should be reduced by a little.  But I've kind of always thought it should be
2 - Shuffle
5 - Draw
8 - Pump (Maybe even 7)

Now you bring on a whole new level of possibilities especially with a 7 cost of people actually playing the high cost cards more often.

Offline opferunm

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 164
    • View Profile
I perfectly like the current system and don't really see why you should change it. If your deck is no a no brain-playallthecharacters deck, you will find yourself not wanting to play anything the next turn sometimes, sometimes getting a ressource is the better option than drawing a card. So there are occasions, even if you don't even have a 11+ cost card where you'd use it, even if it costs 9. With people (imho unjsutified) puffying about call the warpath in another thread, i don't think it would be a good idea to make access to the 11+ cards more easy.

Most of them are more or less gamebreaking and also relatively rare. If they would be easier to play, you would not have to think much about using them anymore, they'd be an auto include for many decks. Because they are all epic, this could mean a bigger disadvantage for newer players.
Lets take a lot at those Cards:

11 Cost:
The Calamity: Complete Board wipe, including commanders and with removal from the game. Also usable in every deck because it's factionless. Therefore you have to skip one turn but as someone stated before, you wouldn't want to play anything inbefore normally.

Subjugated Dragon: 22/22 unstoppable Flyer, Flyers are already relatively hard to deal with, but this guy also doesn't cost morale when he dies and spawns 4 6/6 new flyers. Also it's a verore Card, so you can easily afford to skip a turn very often, when there are no threads left to deal with after mass death in turn 8 or your opponent thinks you're playing mass death.

Dragon of Summer Flame: Flying, Unstoppable, Immolate 5 and kills the enemies defense zone over time. 24/24. You can play a herald in turn 10, while increasing your resources and let this guy charge in turn 11. Also as flame dawn, if you haven't won or lost this far in the game, playing more characters out of your hand won't help too much oftentimes, so you don't really lose anything if you "skip" one turn.

All those cards can even be cast easily without increasing your resources, even safely, if you drop the noble or BLBP the turn before.

12 Cost: Still realistically reachable with nobles only (for a secured play you need to save 2 of them in your hand)

Avarrach has Risen: Gamebreaking card, in many games this is kind of an "I Win" button. Sleepers also have the option of reviving their own or enemies nobles with hekeem or raise dead.

Hidden by clouds: Warpath has access to 3 different cards directly increasing resources (noble, Brings life by passing and Growth -> with 3BLBP in command, 12 cards) , a location lowering the ressource cost by 1 and Karani ( with 1 cost abilities and untapped wilderness you could increase your resources by 4 for one turn). Even if you Assasinate hidden, it will normally have spawned the next one out of the deck. After 2 turns, 1,2 or 3 beasts per turn come into play without any cost. Did i mention that the character is 35/35 and can block flyers?

Ao Shun: Not the best card in my opinion, but Indestrucitble, 30/30 unstoppable, flying and a card drawing machine. Dod can also often afford to do nothing for one turn, if their defence is strong enough.

13 Cost:
Mega unit 02: Also pretty strong, but not completely gamebreaking. Also it's getting hard to play this one without increasing your resources.

14 Cost:
Call the Warpath: Look in the other thread, not overpowered, but like Hidden, you can get to those ressources way easier in WP.
 
Virus of Avarrach: Literally gamebreaking, the game can't handle the sheer amount of tokens created oftentimes and crashes even on strong computers (dunno if already resolved). Kills everything and gives you a token for every character that died in the entire game. Harder to play than most other of these cards, Nobles could create a morale problem because they will be killed by this one. I don't want to see this in turn 10.



Maybe Scaling with the total resources you have would be an option; If you have under 10 ressources it still costs 9, at 10 8, at 11 9 again, at 12 10 etc.
But i don't really see that this one extra resource would benefit you too much in turn 10 most of the time.


Offline moominpeter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
It's fine as is. Most decks don't ever really want to use the resource bump, but a few do. For the ones that do, the cost/reward is pretty well balanced.

Offline TimetoSplit

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
    • View Profile
I'm pretty happy with how the 10+ cost cards are balanced right now.

Calamity requires you to do nothing for a turn, which is fine.  Since it kills everything.

Sub Dragon is great because it's unstoppable, has a death-effect, and costs zero morale!

Summer Flame is a little different....I'd say its only playable because FD does not have any "big" creatures, and this one is really solid - Unstoppable and flying! :D

The Warpath ones....well WP has lots of ramp, so it's not a problem.

Mega Unit 02 is completely absurd in terms of power level, but unfortunately it only really enters play through Awaken or Evelee, but that's okay because it's so insane.

Ao Shun is playable with Surprise Defense, and DoD can protect their nobles better than anyone.

The sleepers cards are tougher to justify though.  Sure they are insanely strong, but Sleepers are supposed to be the slowroll/lategame swarm faction, but they don't really have any enablers for these 12+ cost cards besides what opferunm mentioned.  I would love to see some sort of resource growth for each faction.  Like Sleepers could have a card where if it's in the graveyard, you may sacrifice a character to gain a resource, and GI could have an artifact where you exhaust 2 artificial characters and gain 1 resource, and so forth.

Offline Shimrra3

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 750
  • I am ... darkness!
    • View Profile
The sleepers cards are tougher to justify though.  Sure they are insanely strong, but Sleepers are supposed to be the slowroll/lategame swarm faction, but they don't really have any enablers for these 12+ cost cards besides what opferunm mentioned.  I would love to see some sort of resource growth for each faction.  Like Sleepers could have a card where if it's in the graveyard, you may sacrifice a character to gain a resource, and GI could have an artifact where you exhaust 2 artificial characters and gain 1 resource, and so forth.

I agree with this. Ramp for the sake of ramp in every faction would be stupid, but having ramp that has a synergy with the faction, well, that's way cooler.

I also agree that the current cost of 9 is probably OK*. Virtually everything that necessitates increasing your resources is very powerful, as has been said already.

* - The UI surrounding the increase resource action itself, on the other hand... lets just say I talked to our favorite community manager and he had me send support a message about it. Can't undo the action, opponent can't see it happening, etc. But that's off-topic.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 10:22:19 AM by Shimrra3 »
Quote from: Teremus
YOU WANT BALANCE? I'LL MAKE EVERY CARD IN THE GAME VIZZERDRIX

Quote
"That was the worst driving of all time!"
"Because that wasn't driving! That was flying and burning!"

Offline Berabouman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 482
    • View Profile
For what it's worth, I think it's pretty well balanced at present.

Offline moominpeter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 548
    • View Profile
Every faction already has ramp. It's called Wealthy Noble.