Author Topic: Some rules lawyering inside  (Read 2087 times)

Offline Cyno

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Some rules lawyering inside
« on: February 25, 2014, 09:18:57 AM »
Wasn't getting very far with this in chat, mostly due to me being a slow typer and not having every rulebook on hand. So here's a post about it.

Ritual Master:
This was resolved in chat already, but let's put it down here as well for clarity.
Ritual master is currently worded as "Pay cost: Do effect". Discarding of the card is in the effect part, but the way the card works, and is intended to work, should be a cost. Therefor it cannot be used with an empty hand, as opposed to a card like Wholesale Slaughter, which can be used with an empty board.
Solution: move the discard part in front of the :, or at the very least change the 'and' (from discard AND give +1/+1) to a more clear 'to' (discard TO give +1/+1).


From the list of glitches: "You are able to interact with a card that you have placed in the graveyard the same turn it was placed there during the planning phase."
I was unable to find a rule in the rulebook that says I can't.
Currently I am assuming this refers to abilities like Xi and Aleta Immortal Sufferer, as well as cards like Recycle.
Rule-wise, I am unable to make out why this action is not allowed, while using Secluded Constructor on a freshly played character is allowed. If anything, under the current set of rules, and turn sequence, these 2 should reversed. Characters do not enter play until the Resolve phase (1st step of that phase) and therefor should not be interacted with during the planning phase.
If this is currently working as intended, the rulebook needs some serious reworking, especially when it comes to turn sequence.
A nice side note: If recycle shouldn't be usable on a card that just entered the graveyard, should it be usable on a card that entered the graveyard on the same turn, but in a previous resolution step (like a preemptive card)?

Just a few thoughts.

Offline Hitori

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2014, 11:59:54 PM »
Ritual Master, the 'Exiled' mechanic, and the Exiles in general are still being looked at by the devs and the QA team. Just thought I'd let you know ^_^
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Offline chaosangel2112

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2014, 09:20:41 PM »
Lol, Exiles are going to get themselves.....well exiled, if they don't come correct.  I find it mildly ironic that a faction based on chaos has wreaked so much havoc for the the dev and QA team.

Offline Erlaya

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 12:06:12 AM »
The issue with interacting with the graveyard comes a from a bug that allows you to hit end turn with a max hand (forcing you to discard) then stop the end turn (The discard card stays in the graveyard) and you can then use abilities on it.  This led to turn 5 raise of Mega Unit 02 and similar shenanigans. 

No card game in history has EVER let you interact with a card you discard because of ending the turn.

In regards to discarding a card as part of the activation cost.  I see no reason why this should not be allowed.  If someone forces you to discard a card in MTG (or most TCGs) you can use an instant or similar that targets that card after the card has been resolved into the graveyard.

I guess the reason that it seems bad here is because none of the cards actually resolve until the end turn button has been hit.  So if that is the stance I could see why graveyard interaction would cause issues.

Offline Cyno

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 04:55:02 AM »
The issue with interacting with the graveyard comes a from a bug that allows you to hit end turn with a max hand (forcing you to discard) then stop the end turn (The discard card stays in the graveyard) and you can then use abilities on it.  This led to turn 5 raise of Mega Unit 02 and similar shenanigans. 

No card game in history has EVER let you interact with a card you discard because of ending the turn.

In regards to discarding a card as part of the activation cost.  I see no reason why this should not be allowed.  If someone forces you to discard a card in MTG (or most TCGs) you can use an instant or similar that targets that card after the card has been resolved into the graveyard.

I guess the reason that it seems bad here is because none of the cards actually resolve until the end turn button has been hit.  So if that is the stance I could see why graveyard interaction would cause issues.

The cardgame you are looking for when you said "no cardgame in history" is called Magic: the Gathering.

From my original post, I still don't understand the following:
Why is a Genesis player able to use Secluded Constructor on a character that will be deployed that turn? The rules say that it won't be resolved until the resolution phase, yet you are able to interact with it in the planning phase. If this is intended, then will we also be able to interact with a card that is going to be discarded that turn?

Offline Erlaya

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2014, 04:01:20 AM »

The cardgame you are looking for when you said "no cardgame in history" is called Magic: the Gathering.

Since when can you tell your opponent. I'm done with my turn....force a discard due to hand size...then go no wait...still my turn ok I'm going to raise this haste creature and then attack with it in the same turn?

I stand by my no cardgame in history statement.

Offline Cyno

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2014, 05:00:46 AM »
This got very specific all of a sudden.

Quote
No card game in history has EVER let you interact with a card you discard because of ending the turn.


At no point has anyone said anything about immediately attacking with it, so maybe you should think about fixing the actual problem here, which is that end of turn discards happen before the end of the turn. Before you know what happens.

In other news, you can just discard a giant Eldrazi at end of turn and return it to play immediately with for instance a Fated Return (just to name the most recent card that does it, among the many others) and Fling it at your opponent's face.

And I see you avoiding the other issue...

Offline Erlaya

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2014, 05:09:23 AM »
Anyway back to your original point.  I believe the intention is that played cards are played during the planning phase.  The results of those plays occur during the resolution phase. 

With discarding the hope is to move most if not all discards to occur during the resolution phase.

Offline PianoHandsThePerson

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2014, 02:42:05 AM »
Couple things I want to point out real quick..

The rulebook is outdated. Very outdated, and isn't like the MTG rulebook where every perceivable circumstance has a rule.

Secondly, the problem isn't so much that you discard and can interact it with it same turn. That personally I don't see as the issue. The problem is on the start of next turn when you interact with a card that has been removed from the game. I find that to be the real problem.

Lastly, the secluded constructor does not say it needs to exhaust the card (Would prevent same turn combination) . It's not an exploit, it's intended. Bringing cards that have already been removed from the game, back in to the game by means of programming error, is an exploit. Same with the haste bug.
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Offline Cyno

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2014, 06:26:43 AM »
To Piano: cardgames interact with cards that have been removed from the game all the time, Magic more so than most. The only reason why the interaction mentioned here won't work in mtg is that when a card moves to a different zone, it becomes a new object and any previous connections to it are lost. IW is just about built around the fact that this doesn't happen, seriously, it's the main characteristic of the game. Flavor wise, it also makes sense that Xi would be able to make a spirit of the exile's soul, while its body still came back as a demon, just in case anyone was worried about that.

The secluded Constructor thing might be intended, but the rules say a character doesn't resolve until the resolution phase, so it seem weird to me that you can target it and interact with it during the  planning phase.

As a sidenote, regarding my own OP. Ritual master still has a wrong wording on it. Really people, you changed to wording without fixing the actual mistake. Hold it next to any other card with an activated ability, the discard is still listed as an effect instead of a cost. While in game it acts like a delayed cost instead of an effect.

Offline Rytaran

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 09:28:09 PM »
So, question... why not just make it so that when you end your turn, you can't undo ending? You get locked in after ending your turn? Seems like a simple enough solution to this issue, unless I'm missing something.

Offline DrayGon777

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Re: Some rules lawyering inside
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2014, 07:57:24 PM »
Because then you have people that end their turn thinking they thought everything through and, while waiting for the opponent, re-think their plan due to something they just realized might occur from the opponent. This would lock them in to said decision and will likely hurt newer players more than veterans (though I see veterans also cancel their end turn to make changes). The better solution would be to undo any end turn card discards when you cancel ending your turn.
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