Author Topic: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic  (Read 2860 times)

Offline umikami

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chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« on: July 23, 2013, 03:31:35 AM »
i've been enjoying the game for all the new ideas and innovations over magic.  but i'm concerned the game is designed at it's core to not give much incentive to play creatures.

one concern i have though is the morale mechanic and chump blocking and using creatures.  i feel like if someone just wants to win, the best option is to play no / few creatures because morale can drop so easily with mass removal cards.  then the problem becomes if two decks both play control removal decks then you just sit there and do nothing.  i gotten in a few games like this and it's rather boring, at least for me.  basically, i just sit with a bunch of fireballs and kill anything that moves.  the problem is that there really isn't a big downside to this strategy.

so then i feel like i'm forced to use spell immune creatures, which limits the game.

the next issue is the morale mechanic.  if i play weenies and try to rush with say 6 x 2/1 creatures, i will surely lose the morale.  and then creatures  that return from grave also generate easy morale kills for the opponent.  i can't really chump block either because i just lose morale.

the morale mechanic really changes the game and i think zombie decks or any decks that recycle creatures won't be viable.  thus it seems the really viable decks is just play a few big untargetable creatures or none at all.

i understand that in card games like magic or hex there are often only a few deck archetypes which are viable.  however, i just wonder if the morale mechanic will limit this even further.  when there is no incentive to play creatures since i don't have to "kill my opponent" it's kind of boring.  i know in magic there are "mill decks" but most people find these not particularly fun. of course if you are pro and playing for money, it's not about fun at all, just win.

overall the game is interesting and innovative, just concerned that morale mechanic might limit the way the game is played and what is viable.

Offline umikami

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2013, 03:41:27 AM »
just a follow up so it's very clear.  right now there are 3 ways to win the game. 

1 - kill his fortress
2- kill his morale
3 - mill death / run out of cards
(4) - some cards give win conditions.

so if i don't play any creatures and also play say a 60 card deck, i can essentially remove 2 of the conditions.  my opponent then can only win by killing my fortress.  i have a 3/3 way to win my opponent only a 1/3 way to win.  so i'm concerned about the morale mechanic.

Offline Koey

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 03:44:32 AM »
I think that it comes to one thing I realize why we are running into those Control vs Control deck stalemate.
I personally feel like Sage 3 should be re-made so that it only affects non-character kill effects. (ie. Glorious Warrior and ID)
This way it enforces the fact that people should play characters.

Personally I still feel the game needs to focus mainly on characters and have most win strategies from there. Where as cards like Winds of War, Mass Death, etc. Are mostly there to help fend off your fortress.
I personally would like to see other Alternative Win Strategy like Shrine that enforces more character deployment.

But as a devils advocate, morale mechanic needs to stay. Otherwise you get long drawn out games like in scroll which is also less fun. I think the tension that there is risk for deploying bigger characters is good. Otherwise the game becomes who has bigger characters and who can deploy more.
I just think the fact currently part of the meta allows for a deck be built with 0 characters and still win is bad, as this just leads to whoever has more cards will win mentality.

Offline scoobyfred27

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 03:45:42 AM »
The morale mechanic is one of the things that makes this game unique, those 2/1 creatures cost you 1 morale each, on a faction that is all about high damage, low health characters. The bigger guys cost you more morale, the smaller guys cost you less, that's natural. As a FD deck, you usually either win by the 10th turn, or you end up losing in the end, one way or another, as a WP deck you have a lot of big guys that get bigger and bigger, but cost you a lot of morale, and another thing is most mass removal is easily dodge-able. For decks like DoD, their entire goal is to block the damage and slowly wear you down in morale, in rise every deck is basically the same idea, with new ways to do it! Morale will always be a legitimate way to beat your opponent, but there will be more counters to morale loss in RISE and the set after RISE.
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Offline scoobyfred27

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 03:47:17 AM »
just a follow up so it's very clear.  right now there are 3 ways to win the game. 

1 - kill his fortress
2- kill his morale
3 - mill death / run out of cards
(4) - some cards give win conditions.

so if i don't play any creatures and also play say a 60 card deck, i can essentially remove 2 of the conditions.  my opponent then can only win by killing my fortress.  i have a 3/3 way to win my opponent only a 1/3 way to win.  so i'm concerned about the morale mechanic.

Just gonna go ahead and state this, there are not enough kill spells in the game to counter a rush alone.
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Offline duds7317

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 03:54:50 AM »
First and foremost the game isn't designed to be balanced around just what we have now. Once rise and the set after that come out many issues the current meta has will be moot points once the 3 sets have been released. As always remember this is a beta and things are going to keep changing quite drastically over the next months.

As for morale as a mechanic in general it's fine, those 2/1 guys of yours if they all hit your opponent once before they die your opponent is losing 2 health and you're losing 1 morale for each of them I'd say your winning with those numbers. Then there are ways to get your morale back like yobo.
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Offline umikami

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 04:08:37 AM »
sure if they add in cards it can be fixed maybe.  my original point though was what if the fundamental design doesn't work.  if there's no incentive to play creatures, personally the game is unfun for me.  i understand the game is new.  just my major suggestion is simple.  for me and probably for many players.  creatures = fun,  no creatures = not fun.  so if creatures only give my opponent another way to beat me, it's even less fun.

i think for any game to be a success it should be fun^^

Offline umikami

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 04:13:07 AM »
oh and btw, scrolls is unfun because they removed the mill mechanic.  so games go on way too long. when you want a game to just end, means it's unfun.

Offline Zinqf

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 05:45:17 AM »
Morale actually does add strength to the strategic portions of this game rather than subtracting from it.

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i feel like if someone just wants to win, the best option is to play no / few creatures because morale can drop so easily with mass removal cards.  then the problem becomes if two decks both play control removal decks then you just sit there and do nothing.  i gotten in a few games like this and it's rather boring, at least for me.  basically, i just sit with a bunch of fireballs and kill anything that moves.  the problem is that there really isn't a big downside to this strategy.
You have a point with this strategy. In fact the primary deck I use will get the best of both worlds, rush with FD which has such ridiculously small morale losses you can attack forever....and 2x CV which has so much control that it can keep killing things for a good 30 to 35 turns.

I hate to be the guy to say that RISE will solve some of these issues, but it will. You already see how much of an impact that Dark Blast and Repair make on the game. There will be other spells that will heal morale too. This means if decks are setup in certain ways, they can actually throw a nearly unlimited force to the point where control cards are become far less useful and the anti morale mechanic is hard countered.

In CORE there are some counters to the control meta even though not many. Paladin of the Flame Dawn, Radariah the Untouchable and Shrine of Victory stand out. I can't guarantee that things will be balanced right off for RISE when it comes out, but I can guarantee that it'll be so chaotic that a stalemate situation will be an extremely rare circumstance and the combinations available to deck builders, inventors and card fanatics will be epic.
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Offline Maestro

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 06:35:58 AM »
or a "Moral" part for spells. like too many spells used, the Counter goes to 0.
but lets see what rise brings first.

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 07:34:09 AM »
There once was no limit to the cards in your hand. At the same time a mulligan was possible at any time (shuffle your hand into deck, draw 1 card less) I used this more than a few times to get cards back into my deck. To make matters worse, the morale-loss spell/sage was "opponent loses double morale". It gets better - multiple of those would stack. Hammer it home? Sure - they would stack multiplicative (2x morale loss. 4x morale loss. 8 times. 16. Yeah, that actually was possible - ofc the resources you didn't use had to go somewhere :D)

Just mentioning to assure you, that balance is being addressed and they don't like to rush it and fiddle around for our inconvenience on the live servers.

I rather lose than play the waiting game - "Ask again and we turn around" - "fine, I don't want to wait anymore. We there yet?"

Offline umikami

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2013, 08:04:23 AM »
sure.  seems like you understand my meaning.  just want a fun game and a balanced game.  many matches at the moment forces me to just wait around.  being rewarded for doing nothing is boring.  i suppose one can argue tension but i dont feel it, hehe.

Offline TimetoSplit

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2013, 12:16:08 PM »
As a FD deck, you usually either win by the 10th turn, or you end up losing in the end, one way or another, as a WP deck you have a lot of big guys that get bigger and bigger, but cost you a lot of morale, and another thing is most mass removal is easily dodge-able. For decks like DoD, their entire goal is to block the damage and slowly wear you down in morale, in rise every deck is basically the same idea, with new ways to do it!

Can we stop stereotyping the factions?  It encourages narrow thinking and blinding other (i.e., new) players to alternative deck building methods.  FD is often built to rush, but not neccessarily, as it can be a tempo or even (gasp) a control deck while staying mono-Flame Dawn.  I feel that we should call decks by their faction title + superarchetype (rush, control, tempo, etc.).  My point is that Lightmare has built a game where you can build all kinds of unique decks, but I feel I keep seeing the same ones over and over again.  But that's another discussion...anyway...

I personally despise morale.  The new Protector bear from Rise (4/4 for 3 that makes you lose no more than 2 morale per character) and Yobo, Who Noboy Likes both help with this, though.  I understand why morale exists, but I wish there were some option in the trading post where you could pay some cost and gain morale.  That would be fantastic, because losing by morale is, well, demoralizing! 

Although Flame Dawn does have Vanguard Knight coming in Rise - a 4/2 for 2 and you don't lose any morale for it dying.  Pretty cool.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 12:22:24 PM by TimetoSplit »

Offline scoobyfred27

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2013, 12:29:03 PM »
You do understand what a stereotype is, correct? It's something that is GENERALLY true. And yes, FD is USUALLY a rush deck. Yes, you CAN make it do other things, but in MOST stances it is a rush deck.
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Offline shrinkmaster

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Re: chump blocking / weenies / morale mechanic
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 01:07:49 PM »
i also think that the current meta is too control heavy and stalling games until you draw your win condition is too easy, but i think lightmare did a great job so far and will wait for RISE.