Author Topic: What to do against FD (Rush)?  (Read 3690 times)

Offline Oraanu

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What to do against FD (Rush)?
« on: July 16, 2013, 05:37:19 PM »
Hello  :),

i played many games with different decks and strategies. I had many interesting intense games, also against controll decks, but playing against FD (rush) is a pain.

I will describe my point of view why it is a pain for me. I hope that you can give some strategies, tips or your own experience how to deal with FD (Rush). Is it also a pain for you? Which fastioncombos can deal well with it or not?
(English isnt my mother tongue, but i hope you will understand what i mean  ;))

Why is it so annoying to play against FD?
FD is so very fast and aggressive, that I just have to defense myself with my characters, so that i dont get overruned. So its hard start a counterattack ( if any). FD is very well mana balanced, it has good characters with 1 mana, 2 mana, 3 mana etc.. FD is able to cast more than one spell each turn, what also amplifies the speed. Other factions can get out their first good character with 3 mana, characters before are most to weak against Knight of the Flame or other FD characters.

Until i get out characters for a good defense, FD has already a few out, so that i am outnumbered. And characters i want to set in the defense zone get mostly stumbled or destroyed.
Aoe is an another option to deal with a rush, but many FD chars have enough life to survive yuanshis wrath -> Knight of the Flame Dawn with 4/4, Kali 5/4, Bromich 5/5, Aeriel Command 4/3... Wind of War is most to late. Mass Death is nice, but i has 2 purity and it cant be the only effective opportunity against Fd (Rush).

On the other side i have to get an aoe on start hand or to draw one fast. The chance is low. FD with its low cost characters and spells is more independent from luck. FD has also the possibility to protect the chars with DoD as second faction or with a Matyr Golem. And playing an aoe means, that i cant play a character which i can set in defense zone next turn. FD chars have charge, so they can attack further.

Having luck and stopping the rush means most, that i have less life but the enemy has nearly or full life. And the enemy has also still enough moral, because FD chars cost low. To start an counterattack takes time. Enough time for FD to start the final strike, with Saculas (FD can also just get back to support), flyings, charge attack with few chars or after aoe or calamity or attacking with Agent Coyle, ....
Also very annoyng is playing against 2 FD / 1 Verore with the spell Dark Blast, which blasted me just away and the Harbringer attacked me while bringing back my defense.

2 Verore/ 1 DoD is a good controll deck, but its also hard, especialy against a pumped up Paladin or chars protecting with Fiery Resolve. And the problem is, that this deck is mostly reacting, which gives FD enough time to get all cards which it needs and to finish the enemy with its flexible dmg options.

Summary:
1.) FD is very fast
2.) FD has charge
3.) FD low cost cards (low moral lost, play more than one card eacht turn)
4.) FD has Stumble (removes bonus for stats) and other returning mechanism
5.) FD has special cards like paladin and saculas, flyings, fiery resolve
6.) FD characters are able to survive an aoe attack
7.) FD has combopotential (Saculas + Stumble / Calamity + Agent Coyle, etc.)
8.) FD can be combined very well with other factions


I will be glad if you can give feedback. Experience playing against FD (Rush), Strategies, tips, good factioncombos against FD or combos.  :)

Offline Maestro

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2013, 06:48:03 PM »
since u started whispering me about how annoying my deck is and that fd is lame, ill answer u

there are a lot of ways to deal with this Kind of deck. i lost several times in a row vs Players like wizzardwig, zubr and another one i cant remember. i wont tell u what their decks were like, cause thats their Thing and they maybe wanna Keep it a secret (?). they just had unique decks, played well and not rly predictable. ive beaten 3 of ur decks in a row with mine, and the 4th game, u won, cause u managed to find a working strategy. that means: dont come up too fast with saying sth is OP, because there are so many combinations, why do u think FD is too good, because u couldnt beat it in the first place.

and trust me, morale is working vs FD.

and wasnt it a good Feeling of Progression when u managed to beat me? that means u managed to adapt and beat FD.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 06:51:46 PM by Maestro »

Offline TimetoSplit

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2013, 07:19:14 PM »
How to stop rush?  Every color has the tools to fight against it.  For GI, use Unstable Bombot as a commander if you're really worried about FD.  You get a free turn 2 field wipe, or 2 mana to wipe the field on turn 3, etc.  Pretty useful, just be careful about setting off your Bombot when they have priority!  This can be useful for FD (even though it uses a Commander slot) because GI (in a Constructor/Drones build) has a strong mid- to late-game.  Thus, the more you can do to survive until then, the better. 

Warpath has ramp to make bigger creatures faster, bigger creatures in general, and can spam tokens.  Verore has tons of removal options, plus creatures that generate tempo (Demon of Fear) or virtual card advantage (Rita).  DoD is the polar opposite of FD so they've got all kinds of options.  Sleepers...isn't really a finished faction yet.  And Flame Dawn, when part of a deck more focused on tempo, control or midrange strategies rather than an all-out rush, can use the power creatures to stop your opponent's equally strong creatures.  A useful tactic so that you can be highly aggressive (or not) depending on their deck and the board state.

But at the end of the day, it's hard to talk in a vacuum.  If you want, post a decklist.  That would make it easier to help.

Offline Kamigawa

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2013, 08:08:12 PM »
I run one of those annoying 2FD 1VER decks. The most challenging for me is if the game get longer than 8-9 turns or if the opponent deck has card to heal his fortress /the green one for 15 hp/ or the Ver ones to annihilate the whole combat zone or the defense one/you take 0 dmg this round and the opponent loses 1hp per attack unit - really frustrating card/. Also good counter is the Wall that allowed only 1 attack per turn. Generally the longer the game goes, the harder is for me personally to win. All tho i don't have any expensive cards like golems, paladins, kali, general etc i still manage to be quite annoying :)

PS. Sorry i don't remember most of the card names :)

Offline Oraanu

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2013, 08:25:54 PM »
@ Maestro

I didnt wrote that FD is op.
Its just my point of view from a lot of experience against playing FD and i didnt write this article because i had big problems against your deck. Its just a little bit disappointing, if i get overrun by Fd so easly.
I just want to discuss about possibilities against FD
-----------------

The tip with Unstable Bomb as commander is realy interesting, i will try it out :)

Offline k4ir0s

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 08:30:06 PM »
since u started whispering me about how annoying my deck is and that fd is lame, ill answer u

there are a lot of ways to deal with this Kind of deck. i lost several times in a row vs Players like wizzardwig, zubr and another one i cant remember. i wont tell u what their decks were like, cause thats their Thing and they maybe wanna Keep it a secret (?). they just had unique decks, played well and not rly predictable. ive beaten 3 of ur decks in a row with mine, and the 4th game, u won, cause u managed to find a working strategy. that means: dont come up too fast with saying sth is OP, because there are so many combinations, why do u think FD is too good, because u couldnt beat it in the first place.

and trust me, morale is working vs FD.

and wasnt it a good Feeling of Progression when u managed to beat me? that means u managed to adapt and beat FD.

if your only solution to beating a rush deck is "make a deck like this and you'll beat me" than it's probably overpowered.

@OP

rush decks rely on luck. if they go up against dod, they often lose; if they go up against decks that focus on longevity, they often win.  It's a "cheese" strategy, every game has them. Some players just do the same brainless thing over and over until it's nerfed. it'll change in RISE when there's more diversity ; these type of players will vanish.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 08:32:41 PM by k4ir0s »
"I would be very upset if there was some nerf to the deck that made it go from my current record of 108-2 and instead was 2-108" -Erlaya

Offline TimetoSplit

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2013, 08:40:45 PM »
Well, there's a spectrum of strategies and a metatgame.  It's oversimplifying things to just say "Your deck relies on luck."  Even mono Flame Dawn doesn't have to be "mindless" aggro or a "cheese" strategy.  FD is excellently designed by Lightmare, because it is not IW's equivalent of Burn in Magic.  Instead, you're given options to play controlling cards like Burning Prejudice, Stumble, Fiery Resolve, etc. as well as higher cost cards.  You can balance your deck however you want to so as to fight various matchups.  For example, I could build a FD deck where everything focuses on just clocking out as fast as possible, which is a the strategy which will likely get owned by a control deck.   But then, I could say, "Hey, I want to put up a good fight vs control too!" So I could either spread out the controllish cards throughout the deck (this tilts you toward being a tempo deck) or I could put in a few Aberion (which is an interesting option - in a vaccuum this card is awful for your goldfish speed so it doesn't seem to fit, but it can really ruin a control deck's day, depending on their build), or I could take out a few cards and change it to a strategy where I just throw down some calamities to ruin control's day.  The point is, two of these three ideas become your PLAN B vs a bad matchup, while only removing a small number of cards, while still APPEARING to be a total rush deck, when in fact it is not.  (The other strategy is a little different, but that's another story.)

Offline k4ir0s

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2013, 08:43:49 PM »
Well, there's a spectrum of strategies and a metatgame.  It's oversimplifying things to just say "Your deck relies on luck."  Even mono Flame Dawn doesn't have to be "mindless" aggro or a "cheese" strategy.  FD is excellently designed by Lightmare, because it is not IW's equivalent of Burn in Magic.  Instead, you're given options to play controlling cards like Burning Prejudice, Stumble, Fiery Resolve, etc. as well as higher cost cards.  You can balance your deck however you want to so as to fight various matchups.  For example, I could build a FD deck where everything focuses on just clocking out as fast as possible, which is a the strategy which will likely get owned by a control deck.   But then, I could say, "Hey, I want to put up a good fight vs control too!" So I could either spread out the controllish cards throughout the deck (this tilts you toward being a tempo deck) or I could put in a few Aberion (which is an interesting option - in a vaccuum this card is awful for your goldfish speed so it doesn't seem to fit, but it can really ruin a control deck's day, depending on their build), or I could take out a few cards and change it to a strategy where I just throw down some calamities to ruin control's day.  The point is, two of these three ideas become your PLAN B vs a bad matchup, while only removing a small number of cards, while still APPEARING to be a total rush deck, when in fact it is not.  (The other strategy is a little different, but that's another story.)

I'm not saying FD is cheesy; rush strats are! I play 2fd/1ven and I don't focus on rushing with low level creatures at all, my deck actually does very good in the long run, against a wide variety of decks.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 08:45:22 PM by k4ir0s »
"I would be very upset if there was some nerf to the deck that made it go from my current record of 108-2 and instead was 2-108" -Erlaya

Offline Maestro

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2013, 08:44:38 PM »
@ k4ir0s
still mad. stop implying that ppl who use those deck are bad Players and are brainless blablabla (referring to the poll thread). the Players i mentioned above didnt build a certain deck especially for it.

@ oraanu
another way to handle some situations is playing with the bluff mechanic this game offers.

Offline k4ir0s

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2013, 08:48:01 PM »
@ k4ir0s
still mad. stop implying that ppl who use those deck are bad Players and are brainless blablabla (referring to the poll thread). the Players i mentioned above didnt build a certain deck especially for it.

@ oraanu
another way to handle some situations is playing with the bluff mechanic this game offers.

zzzz What's your problem? you're always attacking me in game and on the forums. my post is directed to the OP.

but since you mention it; bad players often do play cheese decks. Why would good players use them? lol

it's the same for RTS games. If you're familiar with starcraft, the cheese tactic is to rush (using 6pool strategy). It requires the least amount of thought, relying completely on surprising your opponent and nothing more.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 08:50:35 PM by k4ir0s »
"I would be very upset if there was some nerf to the deck that made it go from my current record of 108-2 and instead was 2-108" -Erlaya

Offline Tyonidas

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2013, 08:50:52 PM »
Maestro quit trolling k4ir0s on the forums.  If you have a problem take it up with him in a PM.

Offline Maestro

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2013, 08:54:05 PM »
@ k4ir0s
still mad. stop implying that ppl who use those deck are bad Players and are brainless blablabla (referring to the poll thread). the Players i mentioned above didnt build a certain deck especially for it.

@ oraanu
another way to handle some situations is playing with the bluff mechanic this game offers.

zzzz What's your problem? you're always attacking me in game and on the forums. my post is directed to the OP.

but since you mention it; bad players often do play cheese decks. Why would good players use them? lol

dude dont worry, i screenshoted the ingame Chat, will be given to someone responsible.
why should u do things overly complex? why are Players bad who use These decks?

Offline Hitori

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2013, 09:04:40 PM »
Let me just derail this one bit:
Maestro/K4ir0s -
I don't really care what started this, but this forum seems to be a friendly place to discuss things.
Leave your 'beef' to your private messages if you have any issues with each other.
No reason to start flaming here, regardless of who started what and who is playing what deck.

Please, keep this sort of stuff to yourselves.
I conceive that a great part of the miseries of mankind are brought upon them by false estimates they have made of the value of things.


Offline Koey

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2013, 09:34:48 PM »
Maestro quit trolling k4ir0s on the forums.  If you have a problem take it up with him in a PM.
Tyonidas has the idea.
Please stop derailing the thread.

Offline Teremus

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Re: What to do against FD (Rush)?
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2013, 10:10:45 PM »
Others have said it, I don't care who started it.

Do not bring your petty arguments to my forums. If you want to hammer out details between each other, do it privately so as not to give a hostile environment to our forums. If you have an issue with someone and you wish to report it, do so privately as well.
No seriously, I really like cheese.

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