« on: November 13, 2015, 09:25:58 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing the point again, but how are the characters you picked any less arbitrary? How is his rating system any less arbitrary and why is health more important that power?
Charge characters would benefit from high attack because they're assaulting the fortress.
Vigilance characters benefit from high health because you're defending home.
Either one can benefit from the other, but circumstances would need to be evaluated for that one.
Haste characters benefit from stats period.
Unstoppable characters need both to work. They need power to keep killing and they need health to make sure they don't die in the process of constantly killing. Without both, the character will either hit a brick wall or die trying. If you just want to smack characters, then you only need enough power to kill and then enough health to eat through them. If you want the fortress to die, you do still need enough power to kill, but any extra will transfer to the fortress and make sure it isn't wasted if you get a shot in. However, you need health, or else your Unstoppable will die, and all that extra power truly will be for nothing.
Multistrike characters take any attack power buff or debuff and multiply it by their Multistrike. As Multistrike does nothing int he defense zone, it truly only benefits from increased power. Sure, health is always needed if you want a character to live, but I don't imagine you normally put the Multistrike character at the front of your assault to kill a few characters unless you're splashing FD in for Swift Strikes.
The opposite to Multistrike may be Extra Lives. If a character has Two Lives, then it effectively has double its health. Plus, it takes the full force of the killing blow, then lives at full health. An additional benefit is that you don't die to the first death attack that hits you. That's just good.
Balance can be used on a high health character to make it high attack. It can also be used on a low health character to make it low attack. Balanced Warrior is based solely on Health.
Shifting Stone swaps power and health, so a 0 power character will die if the stone swaps its stats. Not to mention, if you excessively power debuff to when a character has 0 power, it does no damage. Even if it's just acting as a brick wall, it's still a character that is vulnerable to removal, and even if said removal is to just ram head-first until it dies, it still won't hurt anything.
Bloodthirst inherently cares for nothing because its own ability to a boost in power and health against characters. In practice, this means they deal X extra damage to characters and negate X damage dealt by characters. If they take any less than X damage, it's not like it's going to heal or anything.
Then there's Consume which likes power and health with some evenness. It needs Power to kill and Health to survive said kill. However, Consume gives a buff which means it gains its own Power and Health as it kills. Consume X effective negates 2X damage to the character, and anything else is bonus health, healing, or both. If a Consume character were to block a huge line of small characters, or gain Unstoppable and eat through a defensively line of a bunch of small characters, then it'll practically buff itself to huge numbers.
Again, I have no idea why you value health over power. I have no idea why DoD's character design values health over power, or why FD values power over health. I have no idea why WP wants the best of both worlds and just makes everybody cost so much. I have no idea why anybody would inherently value one over the other with this game.
Why would a FD player want more health on his guys? It's not like he'll be blocking with most of them. Why would a DoD player want power? I know there's aggressive strategies that focus on fortress destruction, but if they're just doing their whole defend the wall thing, then why would they want power? Why does Precautionary Measure not buff health? Depending on how the assault goes, that can mean the difference between Lilariah flying everybody over the defense zone and dying, causing everybody else to die to the opposing defense. Granted, they'd all die by the end of the turn, but with the way Champions buff, having a character survive on 1 extra hit point so they can make use of 3 extra power is something that can happen.
The problem I see with LiliumAtratum's argument is that the point system arbitrarily assumes that health and power are equals at all times. They are not. Above all other factions, FD generally value power over health and most of their keywords enforce this idea. DoD tries to value Health over power and most of their cards are designed around this. What I've gathered recently is that the meta doesn't too heavily agree with this, but that's what they try to do despite the meta. To assume that FD puts the same value on health and the DoD do, and the inverse with power, is quite wrong. It's an interesting crunch of the numbers, but that's still just putting a general guess on things.
I happen to own both Orion, Master Architect; and Tygris, The Architect. Both of these character have a design philosophy that seems to line up with what Weak_Wolf is saying. Tygris is 1 to activate his effect, but then making the character is 1 resource for +2/+2. However, he starts at a base of +2/+2, and would thus be inefficient compared to just playing a 1-drop. This means that to reach the curve, the actual cost is 2 to activate his ability. Furthermore, giving characters charge, vigilance, hast and Flying all cost a huge amount. If these are the actual costs of these keywords, then dragons are massively efficient. Yet, to me, Weak_Wolf seems to value the whole Flying + Unstoppable thing being worth what, one or two resources? Tygris says that's around 6 or 7 resources. Orion pays the cost of the character to make a character with +2/+2 for each resource spent. However, this stat curve also implies that 0-cost characters are worth 2/2 with -1 resource as -2/-2. The only 0-cost character that has 2/2 stats that I can think of, is the Angel token. If Orion tries to make a 0-cost, it automatically dies. The regular 0-cost characters have 1 health and some special trait that makes it worth playing despite a 0/1 body being useful only to tank one hit in most situations. You would think there's no reason to attack, but Distraction Drone lets you knock back the defense so the rest of your guys can keep attacking. Cannon Fodder is in this buff faction, and gets away with all kinds of buff shenanigans to make it more powerful. Tribble is a joke character, but it spawns copies of itself in your opponent's deck, so it still does something else.
I find that a buff in health triggers "effectively Two Lives" as being a very strange idea. Two Lives characters effectively have double their own health, and can survive one kill shot. If you're trading with stronger characters and you go from trading with one character to two characters, and no more, sure I understand the idea. When the difference is between 1 character and 3, or 4, or more, then it's no longer as if they had Two Lives, it'd be more than that, would it not? Plus, if your 10 Health character has +1 Health, survives a hit from a 10 power character and then dies to a 1 Power character, it might seem like Two Lives, but in reality, it should have 9 health left. Even if the buff is to specifically double the health of a character, it's not the same thing. A Two Lives character with 1 Health can survive two attacks form literally anything. A 2 Health character, is a 2 Health character. I get what you mean, but Two Lives is a whole other set of variables and situations to just having more health.
Another thing about Power and Health. Splat cares about Power. Fight! mainly cares about Power. Attacking the fortress cares about power. Rakarl and Corrupted Forest care about Power, because otherwise they wouldn't debuff them as they do.
Harahel is not only Unique, but a champion. This means you can't get the mass flying to all angels that Lilariah gives, and Harahel's buffs to power. That's assuming you pick either and don't just go for another champion altogether. Putting Harahel on a similar level to Pack Leader is like saying Shamba is on the same level as Pack Leader. Shamba is not. Shamba's buff even costs "2 resources" as opposed to Pack Leader's 1. I have a feeling that Pack Leader won't return for the Foundation cards they intend to keep ranked legal at all times. Shamba might, but they've acknowledged Pack Leader effectively forced them to create the Giant subtype around the same time they previewed Forced Against the Law. I feel like Hidden By Clouds should be of this subtype so it can't search itself, but that's another discussion.
If you're playing Call the Warpath, the Pack Leader is almost redundant. He helps the Unstoppable charge break through the front lines, but that's about where it stops. The rest of it is just adding overkill to a strategy that is based on overkill. I did see your deck, so don't think I don't know it's an option in token decks and decks around lower-cost WP characters. I saw the decks you were playing against in those particular screenshots. FD has Monster Hunt now, but it can't hit Pack Leader. They have Timely Strikes, but they basically need to Stumble into using that. FD isn't very well known for their hard removal. DoD have the Spirit, but WP have the ancient Aggression Symbol. There's also Primal Rage. Now that Fight! does non-combat damage, you can even use that against the Spirit. DoD have the Disarm+Shifting Stone combo, but that relies on an artifact the WP can easily break by using Growth. The DoD have Humble, but then it's still a 10/10. Maybe it's a bit under the curve, but it's not like the WP will be hurting for resources by the time they reach their end-game. Heck, Untapped Wilderness makes his buff completely free given the way you're measuring buffs. As for the Overseers, it's not triple purity. They have Banish, but that's not going to kill a Pack Leader. Maybe there's something I'm forgetting, but I don't think there's that much hard removal in 2P Overseers outside of maybe Agent Coyle, Ascended. You might have to deal with Ex, but he's a massive debuff to huge characters period.
Precautionary Measures only buffs Power. It doesn't buff Health anymore. Furthermore it's temporary, like Warcary, and almost nobody uses Warcry. Maybe they use it in draft, but it comes across to me like a lite version of Hilderic. It can be useful, but you almost have to build around trying to use it. Chances are, you could've played something better anyway. Precautionary Measures is 1 resource cheaper, but you also need to have had some deaths. Not that it's hard to have had some deaths, but it does gives your opponent some countermeasures by allowing them to empty your graveyard to completely defeat the point of Precautionary Measures.
I'm not sure what to say about the rest of them, personally. I don't know. I don't even know if anything I said is relevant to this discussion, but I felt like bringing it up. I think the point system is highly arbitrary as it always assumes Power and Health are of equal value at any given time. However, I don't understand why you always value Health over Power. Power can be more important if you build your deck around the concept of Power being more important. I also think that buffing 5 characters is arbitrary. I get Plaguebearer. The Sleepers spawner card creates 5 tokens. Maybe you could argue WP have Stampede, but that lasts a whole one turn. Though, I suppose that doesn't stop Precautionary Measures from getting on this list. The rest don't inherently have 5 people to buff. The Overseers have their token spawner, but that is based on the opponent's characters and that can be worth way more or almost nobody. However, The Angels also have a large morale cost behind them. If any sort of AoE damage starts killing them, they can morale out for just fighting against a faction trying to punch through their defenses.
I'm sure Wolf would just feel like he's repeating himself if he has to explain that again, though I don't know if I've ever read his reasoning why, so I'm probably more in the dark about this than others that have kept up with him all this time.
Also, why isn't Master of Demons in that list? Last I checked, with 5 demons on your side, it would be 16/16 for 1 resource. You don't have a problem with that? I know the character itself is 1/1, but that's effectively +12/+12 for free. Why didn't that make this list if you're on about buffs being too effective?