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Infinity Wars => News and Developer Talk => Topic started by: ecliptix on October 29, 2016, 03:48:08 PM

Title: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: ecliptix on October 29, 2016, 03:48:08 PM
Okay, before I go off into a rant I wanna know what other people think. Is Rita, Mistress of Shadow a toxic card?
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: MerliniX on October 29, 2016, 04:01:27 PM
No. Lol.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: ecliptix on October 29, 2016, 04:38:01 PM
You think Rita contributes to a healthy meta game?

I'm not saying she's OP - I'm saying she's toxic and promotes a really, really boring style of gameplay.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: MerliniX on October 29, 2016, 07:03:38 PM
I am saying she isn't toxic, and doesn't promote a toxic or boring style of game play.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: ORISOLVE on October 29, 2016, 07:15:55 PM
Who is voting no? Rita is the most toxic card ever. She promotes stall and her tokens are Death Blast fuel. If she isn't toxic, let's bring back the old Xi.

Rita is used in Shrine decks, Virus decks, and Death Blast decks.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: InvertedEye on October 29, 2016, 08:07:11 PM
Who is voting no? Rita is the most toxic card ever. She promotes stall and her tokens are Death Blast fuel. If she isn't toxic, let's bring back the old Xi.

Rita is used in Shrine decks, Virus decks, and Death Blast decks.
Old Xi didn't exhaust.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: toon310 on October 30, 2016, 11:24:53 AM
I voted yes, i think she needs some changes
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Roderick on October 30, 2016, 12:22:22 PM
While I feel she isn't op, I do feel she is toxic,
I've noticed a lot of toxic gameplay styles in IW lately; Mill the most toxic of them all.
I've always thought that, since we're an online Tcg, we should be able to make balance updates easily, and on the fly to promote not only the most skillful, but most fun playstyles while limiting one-sided or out of nowhere plays. (think karckk or deathblast)

Iw is in a bad state right now, and it'll only get worse as more sets are released, that is if we don't start rotating sets out, or doing continuous balance patches.
Just look at MTG if you want any evidence.

Tldr, it's not rita that's toxic, or imbalanced, it's the entirety of IW right now, rita is just a symptom of a much bigger problem.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Hiding on October 30, 2016, 12:50:21 PM
I feel character based stall is fine just make the characters worth more morale
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Roderick on October 30, 2016, 12:56:23 PM
Stall is not fine, in any shape or form.
It may be fun for the person playing it; But it's hardly ever fun for the receiving end.
For an extreme exampple, play against a pillow fort deck in Mtg
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Hiding on October 30, 2016, 01:00:06 PM
Stall is not fine, in any shape or form.
It may be fun for the person playing it; But it's hardly ever fun for the receiving end.
For an extreme exampple, play against a pillow fort deck in Mtg

That sounds like more spells once again. Characters need to be more emphasized, character based stall should be allowed as it is more interactive if it can be pulled off right it should be fine as all characters can generally be countered. Spell stall appears to be more guessing and uninteractive.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Dogeee [BoD] on October 30, 2016, 01:17:37 PM
i voted for "most toxic card ever" because verore has way too many good commanders lol
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Roderick on October 30, 2016, 01:27:35 PM
Stall is not fine, in any shape or form.
It may be fun for the person playing it; But it's hardly ever fun for the receiving end.
For an extreme exampple, play against a pillow fort deck in Mtg

That sounds like more spells once again. Characters need to be more emphasized, character based stall should be allowed as it is more interactive if it can be pulled off right it should be fine as all characters can generally be countered. Spell stall appears to be more guessing and uninteractive.
I disagree, while I do enjoy character based fights more, I believe having a skillbased game is more important than a stall based game.
For ex. Mass death is fine, big draw back that makes it predictable.
A mass death would not be fine if there's an opposite of it, for ex hitting support zone instead of the battlefield.
This is where power creep comes in and plays havoc as new sets are released. As time goes on, will become harder and harder to balance each set. Every card has the potential to become a combo in such away that ruins the intended effects.

All of this leads up to me advocating for rotation of sets, re-releases of old cards etc. not only would it help long term balance, but would also cut down on future development time
That is...if the devs are interested in the long-term future of the game.

Iw is very up in the air right now, on one hand the devs are working on the game again, on the other a lot of their actions lead me to believe this is more or less of a cashgrab until they run out of funds...
Edit; Forums getting on my nerves. FFS I didn't multipost, let me post without having to do a god damn runaround.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: drewmb10 on October 30, 2016, 01:31:33 PM
i voted for "most toxic card ever" because verore has way too many good commanders lol

Pls nerf masked initiate.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: InvertedEye on October 30, 2016, 02:53:03 PM
Anyone who thinks IW's balance is in a bad state right now has clearly not played during older metas where everything was far more overpowered or toxic. This game is more skill based than any digital card game right now regardless of whatever deck happens to be viable right now.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Roderick on October 30, 2016, 03:20:38 PM
Anyone who thinks IW's balance is in a bad state right now has clearly not played during older metas where everything was far more overpowered or toxic. This game is more skill based than any digital card game right now regardless of whatever deck happens to be viable right now.
Well...seeing how i'm from before rise, I kinda know how it was.
The meta was bad back then, but the game was still fun. Decks were more overpowered than toxic; well...besides dod, god I hated dod.
The game is still very skill based, but some decks take that equation out, in addition we'll be slowly drifting further and further away from that over time.


Let's take Hunted dragon as an example, argueably one of the most skillbased decks out there.
It's not even close to being meta these days. Heck, Bionic pally is the closest thing to it and you just blitzkrieg through removal.
What is meta right now, is tinkercide. Tinkercide of all things.
On top of that you have decks that don't even try to be competitive, but who's sole purpose is to get your opponent to rage quit. ex. Mill
we never had that in old IW, the closest thing was dod, and yeah that was toxic af because it felt like the game wasn't going anywhere. everything else required atleast some skill to play effectively.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Kevkas on October 30, 2016, 03:42:51 PM
I feel character based stall is fine just make the characters worth more morale

This would actually balance Rita somewhat, I'm not sure if it would be THE solution, but it would surely help. I'd really like to hear from Devs or a CM if this is something they would consider doing.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Hiding on October 30, 2016, 03:56:52 PM
I feel character based stall is fine just make the characters worth more morale

This would actually balance Rita somewhat, I'm not sure if it would be THE solution, but it would surely help. I'd really like to hear from Devs or a CM if this is something they would consider doing.

It also helps vs broken ass sleepers without having to use lingbaos will. Chopping down thousands of zombies should mean something.

Character based anything will always be better than just straight up spells. Characters allow you to see something and feel good killing them, especially if killing them does something like drain morale. Characters allow you to decide what to do based on the information given other than an empty board and 20 cards in the opponents hand. Stall is absolutely fine as long as its implemented in the right manner. One track stall is stupid as hell, the stall has to involve a plan coming together with multiple removable pieces not something that just says: puffy it you drawn this game out wayy to long puffy this game you win.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: ecliptix on October 30, 2016, 03:59:50 PM
Anyone who thinks IW's balance is in a bad state right now has clearly not played during older metas where everything was far more overpowered or toxic.

Old Xi + Old Precautionary. Nuff' Said

Personally I just see Rita as an enabler for anything that requires a mass of bodies. I can't but feel that further down the line she's going to become a problem without a way to handle a mass of tokens - especially since there is almost no drawback to using her ability.

Now all this could go away if they would just introduce a consume/unstoppable WP/Exile card. At least something to make spamming cheap blockers undesirable.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Roderick on October 30, 2016, 04:03:37 PM
From the looks of the no more heroes art, it seemed like that was meant to be a card to wipe out tokens.
I'm not sure why they would change this though.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Interesting_Socks on October 30, 2016, 09:31:44 PM
I think rita is a little toxic.

Her whole concept is based on chump blocking, chump blocking is never going to lead to a scenario where you out value your opponent. It's only going to be used so you can stall for some sort of win condition. This, as a concept, doesn't sound fun to play against. People like to interact with their opponent, being unable to attack and losing to a win condition you can't prevent is not something people like playing against.

Then there's the problem of the synergy with the tokens, activating things like Wall of the dead, Shrine and Death blast etc. People don't like playing against these cards.

So on paper, there is nothing fun about Rita and in reality she has been in some of the most toxic decks in IWs being Shrine and Virus (and due to all the recent complaints, I'll include 2COV, 1 FD death blast).

There's nothing massively wrong with her, but I don't like the concept of her or the decks she's used in.


Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Roderick on October 31, 2016, 12:59:18 AM
I think rita is a little toxic.

Her whole concept is based on chump blocking, chump blocking is never going to lead to a scenario where you out value your opponent. It's only going to be used so you can stall for some sort of win condition. This, as a concept, doesn't sound fun to play against. People like to interact with their opponent, being unable to attack and losing to a win condition you can't prevent is not something people like playing against.

Then there's the problem of the synergy with the tokens, activating things like Wall of the dead, Shrine and Death blast etc. People don't like playing against these cards.

So on paper, there is nothing fun about Rita and in reality she has been in some of the most toxic decks in IWs being Shrine and Virus (and due to all the recent complaints, I'll include 2COV, 1 FD death blast).

There's nothing massively wrong with her, but I don't like the concept of her or the decks she's used in.
I think one of iw's biggest priorities should be revamping unfun cards...such as zuza, rita, mysterious box etc.
Heck, at this point I can't even get my friends to play iw, either because it's too frustrating as a new player, or they end up against a mill deck early on.
Add in long que times...the extremely heavy handed tutorial etc....no wonder there's no new players in iw
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: PeliKan on October 31, 2016, 08:37:54 AM
Rita is not toxic but I meet her in each verore commander zone so she can be too strong a little or verore don't have any good commander ^^
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: OneTwo on October 31, 2016, 01:59:23 PM
Strange discussion...

So Rita is toxic, but tons of spellcards in various combinations of CoV/Exile/DoD are healthy? Sure, Rita provides (great) synergy to those decks, but if anything is toxic, its the tons of spell cards doing the same and offering 0 interaction beside outplaying battlefield based AoE spells.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Hiding on October 31, 2016, 02:26:16 PM
Strange discussion...

So Rita is toxic, but tons of spellcards in various combinations of CoV/Exile/DoD are healthy? Sure, Rita provides (great) synergy to those decks, but if anything is toxic, its the tons of spell cards doing the same and offering 0 interaction beside outplaying battlefield based AoE spells.

I think rita's fine, in fact it promotes character+sacrifice based play in Verore instead of just field wipes until u can oblivion.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: ToxicShadow on October 31, 2016, 04:01:05 PM
Strange discussion...

So Rita is toxic, but tons of spellcards in various combinations of CoV/Exile/DoD are healthy? Sure, Rita provides (great) synergy to those decks, but if anything is toxic, its the tons of spell cards doing the same and offering 0 interaction beside outplaying battlefield based AoE spells.

I think rita's fine, in fact it promotes character+sacrifice based play in Verore instead of just field wipes until u can oblivion.

I wouldn't say that she promotes character + sacrifice based play. She surely synergizes with cards that demand sacrifices, but she also synergizes perfectly well with the field wipe oblivion playstyle by helping to stall the game 'til oblivion.

Strange discussion...

So Rita is toxic, but tons of spellcards in various combinations of CoV/Exile/DoD are healthy? Sure, Rita provides (great) synergy to those decks, but if anything is toxic, its the tons of spell cards doing the same and offering 0 interaction beside outplaying battlefield based AoE spells.

Nobody said that they are. And I agree that these decks are a problem even without rita, but i guess it is discussing one card at a time. For me, rita is on a similar level like fear (old discussion, I know, but this is still 1p/unchanged?). By itself it isn't that toxic, but it acts as an easy enabler to easy to play, ugly combos and stall.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Pelagoth on November 02, 2016, 10:29:48 AM
I voted 3rd answer to turn the poll into a phallus-perfect shape.

You can thank me later. :)
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: kayamek on November 07, 2016, 03:16:27 AM
 To not nerf her sacrificial token creator potential just rise by a lot the morale cost of the tokens so they're not as amazing in stalling/fodder for own cemetery based combos without a drawback.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: ArcaneAzmadi on November 10, 2016, 05:57:00 AM
Pardon me for asking what may seem like a potentially stupid question... but is it really THAT essential that token creatures go to the graveyard like real cards rather than simply being removed from the game when they die...?
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Kevkas on November 10, 2016, 12:11:06 PM
Pardon me for asking what may seem like a potentially stupid question... but is it really THAT essential that token creatures go to the graveyard like real cards rather than simply being removed from the game when they die...?

That's actually a very interesting question, personally I wouldn't mind if tokens were just removed from the game once they are killed.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: OneTwo on November 10, 2016, 12:43:20 PM
Pardon me for asking what may seem like a potentially stupid question... but is it really THAT essential that token creatures go to the graveyard like real cards rather than simply being removed from the game when they die...?

That's actually a very interesting question, personally I wouldn't mind if tokens were just removed from the game once they are killed.

Depends on the definition of tokens :P

Wouldnt mind as well, if Aleta Traveler Cards are not considered as tokens. Or the Endless Hordes from the Cyber Infested Dragon, for example.

For Wall of Dead synergy, it might be interesting as well, if Necropolis/Reincarnation Engine tokens do vanish or not.

I think its easier, just to make a rule especially for Rita tokens, instead of all tokens.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Kevkas on November 10, 2016, 04:54:30 PM
I think we could consider a token 'any creature derived from another creature or ability that is deployed automatically or can be deployed from your Hand', such as those created from Rita (both), Splitter Robot, Heaven's Assistance, Caretaker of the Young, Call the Crusade.

Cyber Infested Dragon works differently because it injects creatures into the Graveyard, so those would be 'real' creatures instead of tokens.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Hiding on November 11, 2016, 02:41:09 AM
You would need to create a separate type of card called "token". This is a digital card game a card can definitely create another fully qualified card. The reason a lot of tokens are in card games is its harder to keep track of them  as in a physical card game.

We could do a rebalance on certain cards to make them disapear after hitting the graveyard.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: NatoPotato on November 11, 2016, 02:56:47 AM
Personally I'd classify 'token' as any character which you can only get via the effect of another card, eg the little characters Rita makes aren't actual cards you can find in the deckbuilder and put in your deck.

Rather than wasting space on the 'generator' card there could be a keyword for "if this would die it is removed from the game" and have it on the tokens.
This would also allow for a cards tokens to be changed from going to graveyard to being removed (or vice versa) without needing to update the text of the generator card.
Title: Re: Game Discussion - Is Rita Toxic?
Post by: Hiding on November 11, 2016, 04:28:44 AM
Personally I'd classify 'token' as any character which you can only get via the effect of another card, eg the little characters Rita makes aren't actual cards you can find in the deckbuilder and put in your deck.

Rather than wasting space on the 'generator' card there could be a keyword for "if this would die it is removed from the game" and have it on the tokens.
This would also allow for a cards tokens to be changed from going to graveyard to being removed (or vice versa) without needing to update the text of the generator card.

I disagree with this. There is no need for this to happen except for in a few special cases.

Also not hitting the graveyard before disappearing can cause some problems such as when counting deaths in programming. In MTG the rules state that tokens hit the graveyard before disappearing when killed to enable interactions with "enter graveyard" effects I feel it would be a good idea to preserve this.