Lightmare Community Forums

Infinity Wars => News and Developer Talk => Topic started by: RikkiTikki on February 24, 2016, 03:53:58 AM

Title: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: RikkiTikki on February 24, 2016, 03:53:58 AM
Greetings Infinity Warriors!

We’ve got quite a lot to talk about in this week’s post related to the upcoming 1.4.12 update that should be hitting the PBE servers within the next week or two.  Since there’s a lot to go over, we’re going to dispense with the preamble and jump right into it. Here we go!

Overhaul of Rift Run Win Count Rewards

Draft mode is going to get a big revamp in 1.4.12 with the Rift Run Win rewards being significantly improved. Draft has always been a fun mode to play, but we felt that the cost/reward balance for playing it did not provide players with the right incentives for competing in draft. Having a decent 10 win run in draft and getting a “single rare & 3 uncommons” as a reward may at best feel like a non-event for seasoned players, and at worst, may feel like a big punch in the face for newer players that are breaking double digit wins for the first time.

With that said, Draft mode starting from 1.4.12 will see a major upgrade to the reward tables. Below is a sneak preview of some of the “before vs after” reward ranges that players can expect to see soon:
The goal of these changes is to make Rift Running more attractive for players of all skill levels - newer players to Draft mode will benefit from lower barriers to gaining Rare, Epic and Legendary cards, while the very best Rift Runners can fight for premium cards as well as the very exclusive Infinity border cards. Increasing your win count will also increase the rarity of the premium cards that are awarded. All cards obtained through Rift Run rewards, with the exception of Infinity cards, will remain TRADABLE.

To reflect the significantly increased benefits of Rift Running, including win count rewards and upcoming weekly leaderboard rewards (see below for more details), we will also be adjusting the cost of playing Draft mode to 2500 IP or 85LP.

Weekly Rift Run Leaderboard Rewards

Besides significantly better rewards for Rift Run win, we will also be cranking up the competitive elements by introducing enticing rewards for each week’s Draft leaderboard winners. As a starting point, the Top 50 players on the weekly draft leaderboard each week will be awarded a combination of tradable premium cards as well as a bundle of our new “Penta Pack” card packs (more on Penta Packs below).

The #1 Rift Runner for each week will also be rewarded with 3 Infinity Border cards to reflect their PVP prowess. Below is an outline of the various tiers of items that can be won from the initial weekly draft leaderboard rewards.

Position     Rewards
1     3 Infinity Border cards & 3 Tradable Rare+ (Gold or Foil) cards & 5 Penta Packs
2-5     2 Tradable Rare+ (Gold or Foil) cards & 5 Penta Packs
6-25     1 Tradable (Gold or Foil) card & 5 Penta Packs
26-50     1 Tradable Foil card & 3 Penta Packs

Introducing the Penta Pack

1.4.12 will also see a complete revamp of the card packs that are available via the in-game store with the removal of all existing booster/blister packs, and the introduction of a new kind of card pack called the Penta Pack. One of the biggest challenges that we had when first starting out in Infinity Wars was that even though we wanted to buy card packs to grow our collection and construct better decks, we really had no idea what packs to buy to effectively get the cards we wanted.

The expansion based booster packs were confusing to new players who were not familiar with what cards dropped from which boosters and for players that wanted to target cards from specific factions, there was no good way to do so with booster packs.  We saw that new players were frequently asking in global chat about “what packs should they buy?”, which further reinforced our view that the existing booster pack designs and packaging were not very intuitive.

For more experienced players, the 15 pack booster pack format typically dropped a deluge of common/uncommon cards, and even with a guaranteed rare+ in each booster pack, the chance for getting a specific epic/legendary was so miniscule that it discouraged players from buying additional packs.

With the goal of solving the above issues in mind, we have designed the new Penta Packs which we hope will provide more clarity to players in terms of which packs to buy and why, as well as provide an overall higher drop rate for rare, epic and legendary cards.  Below is a brief synopsis of the new Penta Packs taxonomy:
For those wanting to purchase existing Booster/Blister packs that are currently available in the store, we encourage you to do it now or sometime before 1.4.12 is rolled out onto the live servers sometime in the next few weeks. Especially the Star Trek Blister Pack, Star Trek Phase One Pack, and the Omni Collector’s Pack since the cards from these packs will not be available in the new Penta Pack format.

Realign LP pricing to USD

We will be adjusting the price of LP by realigning it to a US dollar base vs the current Australian dollar base. Back when the value of LP was first tied to the Australian dollar several years ago, the AUD vs USD conversion rate was almost 1:1 but has since devalued by over 30%.

What else is going on with the Infinity Wars Team?

Since the announcement in late December of the partnership between Lightmare and Yodo1, we have continued to scale up the size of the Infinity Wars product team, adding an additional 12 members to the IW team ranging from developers, game designers, artists, project managers, support staff, and of course, the community managers that you’ve all been interacting with you over the past two months.

The new features announced today in the upcoming 1.4.12 release is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what we have planned. You can all expect to see more content and features coming out for Infinity Wars on a much more regular basis as the new team ramps up their efforts to bring you a better game!

See you all on the battlefield!

RikkiTikki
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: MerliniX on February 24, 2016, 03:57:43 AM
#1
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Benionin on February 24, 2016, 03:58:16 AM
Hold the phone here. Are you saying that Star Trek packs will no longer be available? Ever?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Sharkgrin on February 24, 2016, 04:01:39 AM
Exciting changes. I also would like to see the Star Trek cards to remain available.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Dogeee [BoD] on February 24, 2016, 04:03:16 AM
+1. sounds great af.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Symphony on February 24, 2016, 04:06:21 AM
Hold the phone here. Are you saying that Star Trek packs will no longer be available? Ever?
Whaaat?? What about electro's 40 tribbles deck? Will it now only be a dream? :/

@topic
Great changes and I'm really glad you guys are actually changing the rewards for once! Get the adorable bear over here!


Quote
While non-premium cards obtained through Rift Run win streaks rewards or leaderboards rewards will remain soulbound as before
They were never soulbound, Rikki. All cards rewarded from rift runs were tradable.

I'm also assuming we still get the deck (tradable?) for free at 29 wins, correct?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Crestmoor on February 24, 2016, 04:14:28 AM
Hold the phone here. Are you saying that Star Trek packs will no longer be available? Ever?

Star trek cards may be offered in the future but currently there are no solid plans for making them available so if you want to get star trek cards, the time is now...
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Cleanse on February 24, 2016, 04:18:33 AM
Honestly not sure what to think of these changes, but I am glad the devs are being bold in trying to improve the game.

I hope that there will be some consideration of draft balance to coincide with the greater costs and rewards. Aleta commanders in particular.

What will happen to current runs when the patch hits? They were purchased with the old amount - do they get the new rewards?

I also thought infinity borders were never going to be tradeable? Mistake in the post or did you guys change your mind?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 24, 2016, 04:24:32 AM
Hmmm...
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp
Post by: Crestmoor on February 24, 2016, 04:25:44 AM
I also thought infinity borders were never going to be tradeable? Mistake in the post or did you guys change your mind?

that is correct, Infinity border cards will not be tradable.  Golds/foils obtained through rift runs will be
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Heyheuhei on February 24, 2016, 04:31:15 AM
WoW, super amazing awards :) too amazing to be true :P
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on February 24, 2016, 04:34:32 AM
WoW, super amazing awards :) too amazing to be true :P

Well time to brush up your Rift Running skills and knock ES off the throne!  8)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 24, 2016, 04:37:21 AM
The Rift Run rewards don't mean anything to me because I suck an us at Rift runs. But the alt. Art packs interest me. When will they be available?  What will be in them(anything new or same stuff?) And how much will they be? Will they have a guaranteed alt. Art drop?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: RikkiTikki on February 24, 2016, 04:43:50 AM
Hey guys, I made a few corrections and clarification in the OP.

Just to be clear:
- Infinity cards will NOT be tradable.
- All rift run reward cards, whether they are premium or not, will remain tradable EXCEPT for Infinity cards!!!
- No changes have been made to how rift run decks are purchased, so you can still "purchase" the deck for free at 29 wins.

Let us know what you think about the new Penta Packs too! :)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: MerliniX on February 24, 2016, 04:45:57 AM
Just to be clear:
- Infinity cards will NOT be tradable.
- All rift run reward cards, whether they are premium or not, will remain tradable

This has made it less clear :P
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on February 24, 2016, 04:48:40 AM
But the alt. Art packs interest me. When will they be available?  What will be in them(anything new or same stuff?) And how much will they be? Will they have a guaranteed alt. Art drop?

These "promotional packs" won't always be available in the store, we'll be switching different ones in at different time intervals so they will be time limited packs that can be bought.  we'll provide more details on these as they become available in the stores.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 24, 2016, 04:56:05 AM
Just to be clear:
- Infinity cards will NOT be tradable.
- All rift run reward cards, whether they are premium or not, will remain tradable

This has made it less clear :P

Because Infinity cards are worthless not premium duh Merlin :P
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: electro13 on February 24, 2016, 04:57:02 AM
Since you're planning on adding penta packs for all 8 factions including SOA, does this mean sleepers won't be rotating, or that the plans for rotation are changed?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: NatoPotato on February 24, 2016, 04:59:25 AM
With the Penta Packs, will the Faction packs include sets that are rotated out?
So if IW2013 gets pulled and I buy a FD pack is there any chance to get FD IW2013 cards?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 24, 2016, 05:00:44 AM

Let us know what you think about the new Penta Packs too! :)

Honestly I'm wondering why faction packs can't be purchased with ip? This would seem like a perfect thing for a new player (hence why you say you created it) but then a new player doesn't have access to it without spending real money. -more than they'd have to to buy the other packs. And new players aren't going to understand the higher likelihood of completing their faction collection and such and such they'll only see it as a rip off.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Cleanse on February 24, 2016, 05:04:54 AM
Current log in rewards include soulbound blister packs.  Are these being restructured as well?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: MerliniX on February 24, 2016, 05:20:03 AM
- All rift run reward cards, whether they are premium or not, will remain tradable EXCEPT for Infinity cards!!!

Nice to see the clarification.

Now - who is up for bets on whether the first batch of Infinite Border cards from Rift rewards are tradeable not?

I'll give 2:1 odds in favor of the cards being tradeable.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 24, 2016, 05:29:53 AM
- All rift run reward cards, whether they are premium or not, will remain tradable EXCEPT for Infinity cards!!!
Nice to see the clarification.

Now - who is up for bets on whether the first batch of Infinite Border cards from Rift rewards are tradeable not?

I'll give 2:1 odds in favor of the cards being tradeable.

On the day when I left home to make my way in the world, my daddy took me to one side. “Son,” my daddy says to me, “I am sorry I am not able to bankroll you to a very large start, but not having the necessary lettuce to get you rolling, instead I’m going to stake you to some very valuable advice. One of these days in your travels, a guy is going to show you a brand new deck of cards on which the seal is not yet broken. Then this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump out of this brand new deck of cards and squirt cider in your ear. But, son, do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you’re going to wind up with an ear full of cider.

- Sky Masterson, Guys and Dolls




Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 24, 2016, 06:07:04 AM
Realign LP pricing to USD

We will be adjusting the price of LP by realigning it to a US dollar base vs the current Australian dollar base. Back when the value of LP was first tied to the Australian dollar several years ago, the AUD vs USD conversion rate was almost 1:1 but has since devalued by over 30%.

As someone living in Australia, and paying with Australian Dollars, does this mean it will cost me more to buy Lightmare points after this conversion? Should I stock up on Lightmare Points before this change goes live?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 24, 2016, 06:26:01 AM
Sorry, new question:

What does this mean for the previous plans for a Foundation Set? Is that still planned? Would the Foundation Set be released as a Penta Pack as well?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 24, 2016, 06:42:06 AM
Get the adorable bear over here!

Ok, I guess I better review this since its my thing :P for starters good job posting a weekly post on time. And also just quickly to this point

For higher win runs, there’ll now be Gold and Infinity border drops, including rare, epic, and legendary premium drops, which we’ll let you discover for yourselves…
Please don't do this. Just tell us how the game works please, you are not creating any hype or excitement by 'letting the players explore the new system'. All that does is create confusion for players and people constantly asking "what do I get for X wins?" "where can I find out?" "why havent they told us?" None of which are exciting things to talk about. It also just creates a bunch of work for some poor chap who will probably end up painstakingly collecting screen shots of peoples runs and their prizes and putting together the data.... WHEN YOU COULD JUST TELL US HOW IT WORKS! lol but seriously its not cute, don't do that.


Now onto the meat of the changes, I see several serious problems with whats been outlined. For the sake of time I wont bother talking to much about the things I don't think are a problem so everything I don't mention you can assume I think will achieve the desired goal or I like it or have no opinion on.

1stly
Bigger prizes for less wins at a higher entry fee cost is going to make drafting less casual and be a barrier for new players wanting to try it out. Instead of paying a small fee a couple times and having a couple goes at rift to get the idea and not feel to bad if you lose... now if you pony up the entry fee you damn well better win some games. I think its going to seriously turn people away from the formate when there first 3 runs are 0-3 and they've lost 7500 IP for nothing in one afternoon.
However its great for me and anyone pretty decent at rift running will get more loot, however you said you wanted to make Rift Running attractive for players of all skill levels, and im not entirely sure this will achieves that. Id probably have to wait an see but I suspect not. Perhaps you can find a way to offset this by perhaps incorporating free rift run tokens as part of the early level up rewards so that they are encouraged to have a few goes.

2ndmost point
Infinity Bordered cards are a bad joke. They are untradable and therefore worthless. I am amazed that you think a worthless blue rectangle is going to motivate players to participate in the highest level of competition... to strive to be the best rift runner or ranked player... for a blue rectangle.
"Oh no but it will show off what a good player you are."
How egotistical do you think the IW player base is?! Like 9 out of 10 rewards are vanity items. We got THREE type of vanity cards in the game with out adding a 4th, 5 types of vanity cards if you count gold foil and plat foil (and I certainly do because I like my cards matching). ONTOP of that we have vanity avatars, vanity medals, vanity avatar borders, vanity titles, vanity card backs, vanity battle fields, vanity deck effects and vanity alt arts.
So you looked at all that and thought you know what Infinity Wars lacks... a 6th type of vanity card... so they can show of some more...
Well consider me unimpressed by your blue rectangle if I want valueless blue rectangles I can draw them myself thx. Here ill be giving this out free to anyone that beats me in rift from now on.

(http://i.imgur.com/Z635N5S.png)


Apart from the introduction of blue rectangles the leaderboard rewards look ok to me, the distribution seems fair, the amounts seem generous for the current player base (though that would change if the player base grew) so rest im most like meh ok. I dunno if youd want to be giving 9000 IP of prizes to someone who came 49th that week though seems insanely easy to achieve. So anyway its not what I would have done but not like you bothered to ask me.

Ok onto point number the 3rd
Drop rates, what are they? We dont even know the what the current drop rates are let alone the new ones so theres no way that we can possibly make sense of this.
The chances for getting an epic or legendary card in a Penta pack will be significantly higher than that of the old style booster packs.

All of the 10 Penta Packs described above will have a chance to drop premium cards with similar drop rates to the old booster pack formats.

On a regular basis (bi-weekly or monthly), we may also introduce or rotate promotional Penta Packs that may, for example, have a better chance of dropping premiums, alt art, etc. These kinds of promotional packs will never be permanent and will change on a regular basis.

So a hypothetical promotional penta pack that has a higher drop rate than a regular penta pack which has a higher drop rate than a old booster pack which we don't know what the drop rate is... seems more fishy than a realtuna. Certainly not saying it is fishy but if im buying something that has a 'chance' and especially something thats advertised as having a 'better chance' id like to know what those chances are before I buy it.
We need to know what the drop rates are for both for consumer confidence and also if we are to be able to judge how the new system compares to the old system.


For the 4thyness point ill end on a small positive note, that I think the concept of faction specific packs at a higher price is an excellentgreatsauce idea! It will really help new players know what packs to buy as well as allow them to get small but coherent collections. Someone with 10 random packs and 5 flame dawn packs is going to be able to build a hell of a lot better decks than someone with 20 random packs. So I think that will really help give new players both direction and some basic tools to work with and expand from.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 24, 2016, 06:45:56 AM
Even though I'm not being paid a billion dollars...

1. Faction Boosters should cost 300LP, unless you are getting a Legendary every 5 Packs, this is a must have change. I'm no developer, but trust me on this, business will not see a rise in sales as long as the faction packs are triple the cost of a normal pack. So unless you guys are sneaky developers and intentionally made the Core packs have a much lower drop rate of Legendaries compared to the Faction packs, do not charge 5 cards for triple the cost for it being in the same faction. From my understanding, the Faction packs have much higher percentage in acquiring Legendaries/Epics statistically, if you guys ensured the Drop Rates based on X/Y. Consumers will not see it this way, and also it is not fair to newer factions with less cards compared to Flame Effin Dawn with so many cards it could be 3 Factions by now. Consumers will see 5 cards being triple the cost for it simply being in the same Faction only? I suggest manually reducing the drop rates depending on the Factions to be reasonable based on the number of cards in that faction, and then reduce to cost of the packs to 300LP.

2. No Factionless Packs? Martyr Golem's value rises once again.  ;D

3. Great idea about Alt-Art Packs.

4. Forums are bugged, why does it say I am connecting to Aletasarchive? Did someone hack the forums? Forums are loading very slowly.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 24, 2016, 07:27:31 AM
Also I see ways to improve the new "proposed" Rift Run system.

Guaranteed Rare starting at 3 wins (vs 9 wins before)

DONE.  ;D

Questions: Are you guys stating that Gold is now officially more valuable than Foils? And is this reflected in the drop rates?

What else are we getting on top of the main rewards in Draft? Are we still getting boxes to open with uncommons/commons and IP?

Can you come up with a better name than Pentapack? Please? Can it at least be one word or hyphenated, instead of Penta Pack?


You change the Rift rewards, but not the card selections?

Why are you rewarding (Gold or Foil) why can't it be both?

Let me get this straight, 25 people will be rewarded tradeable Foil cards every week? Then on top of that 20 people will be rewarded tradeable Gold OR Foil cards every week? Then 11 Rare+ Gold or Foil will be rewarded to 5 people. But only #1 gets 3 Non-Tradeable Infinity Bordered Cards... Also LM/Yodo1 is rewarding 1(5) + 4(5) + 20(5) + 25(3) = 200 Penta Packs valued at 600,000 IP worth of packs every week on top of non-weekly rewards. The Penta Packs are a good start for incentivizing people to play Rifts.  ;)

This is a very big change, and I don't think I will trade when this patch hits (or now). The economy is going to change drastically. With this many Golds/Foils being released to the public and Rares being 3000 IP compared to 5250IP.

How do you guys intend to change weekly rewards and level up rewards? Overall players will have a lower quantity of cards, but higher quality. As a new player, quantity is more important than quality in the beginning. I've started a rant, and I will not continue this economic observation.  ;)



Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Qfasa on February 24, 2016, 07:47:15 AM
Looks like I'm in minority here because I think the whole idea with penta packs is bad. Really bad.

'Old boosters' system is confusing'. Yes, but you know why? Because the game doesn't have any built-in card base (and right now it doesn't have ANY updated card base!). Because players can't see what cards contains one booster or another. Because IW does terrible job to explain a new player anything about itself (except maybe core gameplay thanks to the new campaign and Academy). And instead of making it any better, you decided to replace it completely. Amazing. Why MtGO and HEX can exist just fine with such system but in IW it suddenly 'very confusing'?

Better chances to get an epic+. Commons and uncommons already worth nothing. Players only need rare+, even epic+. Instead of fixing broken economy and giving us ANY way to trade our worthless card FOR ANYTHING that is worth something, you just give us more epics+? Yep, great. How soon I can expect that my rares will cost nothing just like my C/U because of the inflation? Trade almost dead in the game and I don't see how this change will help it. If anything, it ruins trading into the ground completely.

Both of my points are IMHO and I hope I'm wrong. But as I said, I don't like this part at all.

P.S. It was already asked but I also want to know what all these changes mean for the idea of rotation? Both, sets and factions. Is it still on the table?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 24, 2016, 08:04:57 AM
'Old boosters' system is confusing'. Yes, but you know why? Because the game doesn't have any built-in card base (and right now it doesn't have ANY updated card base!). Because players can't see what cards contains one booster or another. Because IW does terrible job to explain a new player anything about itself (except maybe core gameplay thanks to the new campaign and Academy). And instead of making it any better, you decided to replace it completely. Amazing. Why MtGO and HEX can exist just fine with such system but in IW it suddenly 'very confusing'?

Gonna play some devil's advocate for a bit.

Hearthstone can do it because it's only 3 sets, a lot less confusing. Their crafting system is set up so even if you get nothing useful, no matter what packs you buy you'll work your way towards cards you want, so the choice is never truly wrong.

Hex can do it because MTG is already complex as crap and doesn't pander to casuals.

Why can't Infinity Wars? 7 possible boosters is a lot. Collection Boosters weren't properly labeled as a good purchase for newer players. Set names didn't give much guidance into what cards were inside (Infestion is about sleepers? Why didnt I get any sleeper cards?)

Now, new players buy Collection Boosters, or if they want to pay money, can focus on a single faction they enjoy. Veterans with complete collections will just buy the most recent expansion, because that's all they need. Simpler system.

Is this an overall benefit to new players? Probably not. Choice is always best.
Could this have been handled differently/better? Probably, but it is what it is, and it doesn't seem like it's going to break the game.

On the points of more epics and legendaries, if the game is going more pay to win and loading more staples into the epic and legendary slots, then increased drop values are going to benefit free to play players more than if they were static. If things stay the same... i'm no economist, so I can't say how it will or will not affect the economy.

If things go south in the Economy, Lightmare loses money, so they'll be quick to fix it... unless the flood of cards is so great the damage can't be undone of course.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on February 24, 2016, 09:11:37 AM
WoW, super amazing awards :) too amazing to be true :P

Well time to brush up your Rift Running skills and knock ES off the throne!  8)

I came to draft to kick ass and chew bubble-gum, and I'm all out of gum  8)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Rawonall on February 24, 2016, 09:12:25 AM
To reflect the significantly increased benefits of Rift Running, including win count rewards and upcoming weekly leaderboard rewards (see below for more details), we will also be adjusting the cost of playing Draft mode to 2500 IP or 85LP.

So, a command zone reroll cost increased from 2 to 9 wins (it was 1000-450 you get for 0-3 divided by 225 for a win, now it's 2500-450 / 225 ) but the unholy Aletas trio is still free to plague the format by allowing some lucky player to play a different (easier) game than anybody else? Bad job. Fixing the core problems of RR should have been a priority higher than adjusting prizes.

1) Get rid of freaking Aletas in command zone
2) Get rid of duplicate cards in the same pick choice
3) Fix the pairing algorithm so that you never, ever, under any circumstance, can play the same opponent with the same deck two times in a row (this was actually indended to be done a few patches ago, but doesn't work ).
4) Fix the dumb "abandon run" button

Everything else is fine.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: CommunistMountain on February 24, 2016, 09:13:34 AM
Will boosters and cards I gained from the daily rewards and stored in my inventory be deleted upon releasing this patch? (I had wanted to save them up for the next set so I could have a bigger head-start with acquiring cards from the new set, as there would be a chance for the boosters/cards to drop them.)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Psyscape on February 24, 2016, 09:58:01 AM
Personally I have nothing to say about Rift Running, Im still sore about losing my IP when the system froze, But those rewards look nice for those that do enjoy RRing.

The change to packs on the other hand I do have stuff to add. This is just my thoughts listed out for ya.

1.  Ive played a lot of card games, alpha/beta HS, even managed to join the Infinity Council (which I still love you guys!) and of all the games Ive judged or played this one has hit all my loves, deep strats, fun cards, a great community, nice dev staff, and a fun (subjective) system,  I personally loved the fact that I could get a pack of cards pop them and feel that Im getting my monies worth.  But with getting only 5 cards in a pack and having no option to get a faction pack with ingame currency is kinda painful to me.

1.a  5 card packs -  One reason I stopped playing  Magic Duels was because the cost of the packs with ingame currency to the amount of cards I got for it felt way to grindy.  Example I play very casually here, mostly I enjoy ranked play (which Im working on getting back that multi month medical leave kicked me hard) but when its time to grind for a pack the amount of IP to the cost of the pack makes me cringe sometimes (without IP boosters) but when I crack that pack and I see all those cards Im like "This was worth it" now im going to roughly get 1500 off of a pack price and get only 5 cards -.-  Not honestly enjoying that thought.

1.b Faction packs - So I cant buy them with in game currency, Im paying more real life money then the other 2 types of packs just for a better shot of epics/legendaries from a faction?  And I still only get 5 cards?  I can see the idea and theory behind it, but I think there should be a ingame way of getting them for newer players that cant afford to spend lots of money.  I mean Battlegrounds and Card backs costing only real money sure they are cosmetic but the actual cards to play? I know theres a option to get the Core or Booster variations and the LP cost is because mathmatically it should be easier to get a epic/legendary with a smaller pool of cards but in practice with only 5 cards in the pack and the amount of cards per faction its not really worth the added cost imo.

2.  What happens with the other product like Star Trek, Collection Starter, or the Omni Collection?

3. I dont honestly think raising the price of M. Golem and Calamity is helpful, Consider adding a Factionless pack if ya going through with these pack changes.

4. Personally I dont think the Penta pack idea overall is a good one,  If there was simply a ingame interface that displayed the cards, similar to the HS collection binder interface where you could see whats avaliable and sort it by sets, I think newer players would be able to handle booster packs effectivly, right now it feels like change for changes sake.

Sidenote - Im all for no rotation lol specially of factions, not that I like sleepers.  I would just like coherent story to the game.

Thats just my ramblings and those that know me or have talked with me can probably understand what I mean if the meaning doesnt seem to come through.  I do have a issue with getting my thoughts verbalized.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 24, 2016, 11:07:56 AM
To reflect the significantly increased benefits of Rift Running, including win count rewards and upcoming weekly leaderboard rewards (see below for more details), we will also be adjusting the cost of playing Draft mode to 2500 IP or 85LP.

So, a command zone reroll cost increased from 2 to 9 wins (it was 1000-450 you get for 0-3 divided by 225 for a win, now it's 2500-450 / 225 ) but the unholy Aletas trio is still free to plague the format by allowing some lucky player to play a different (easier) game than anybody else? Bad job. Fixing the core problems of RR should have been a priority higher than adjusting prizes.

Rift Run game balance sounds like a different topic, and perhaps one that deserves it's own topic, but I don't think you're going to find said discussion here.

Lets keep the discussion on the new changes, and what we like about them and what we don't, instead of things that could have been done and should have been done instead.

1.a  5 card packs -  One reason I stopped playing  Magic Duels was because the cost of the packs with ingame currency to the amount of cards I got for it felt way to grindy.  Example I play very casually here, mostly I enjoy ranked play (which Im working on getting back that multi month medical leave kicked me hard) but when its time to grind for a pack the amount of IP to the cost of the pack makes me cringe sometimes (without IP boosters) but when I crack that pack and I see all those cards Im like "This was worth it" now im going to roughly get 1500 off of a pack price and get only 5 cards -.-  Not honestly enjoying that thought.

You'll roughly get 2250 off the price. Almost half of what boosters cost now.

2 Penta-packs cost 6000 IP, give 2 guaranteed rares or higher, 10 cards total
1 Collection Booster costs 5250 IP, gives 1 guaranteed rare or higher, 3 uncommons or higher, 15 cards total.

You're getting more rares, and less uncommons and commons. You're also getting boosters much more frequently, which alleviates the 'booster grind' players often complain about. I don't think you'll hate opening penta-packs as much as you might think.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: neko137 on February 24, 2016, 11:13:12 AM
I wonder how will pre-orders be handled and if platinum packs will still be a pre-order premium.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 24, 2016, 11:17:17 AM
I'm not really interested in the current draft system, as the rewards seem too grindy and too reliant on preying on 'bad' rift players to pad wins.

The new draft system sounds like something I might participate in, because I could get something out of it, but the price might be a deterrent as I like to save up IP for a massive pre-order, so if I suck at it, or IP returns are too low, I might have to ignore it.

Have you considered offering 1 free Rift Run a week to all players? This would alleviate concerns that people can't try rift runs without losing a ton of IP, and get players who otherwise might avoid it, a chance to try it out, and perhaps becoming frequent rift runners.

On the new penta-packs, I don't see a problem with the old system, and as people say, better labels would essentially do the same thing as what you're doing now.


For players who really just want to buy specific packs, could you possibly add penta-packs for each set, but hide it in the UI somewhere? Like an obscure tickbox in an obscure menu to see the purchase page for them?

New players would only see the 'normal' booster, and ther 'most recent set' booster, which makes buying boosters very simple for them, but a veteran who knows where to look could see the more 'advanced' sets and if he's knowledgable enough to find the menu, he won't be confused at what he sees.

It's possible veterans could intentionally tell new players how to look at the 'advanced' set boosters, but 99% of veterans say 'Just open collection boosters if you don't know what you want' right now, so I doubt they'll intentionally tell em how to reach a secret purchase page.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 24, 2016, 11:23:39 AM
Have you considered offering 1 free Rift Run a week to all players? This would alleviate concerns that people can't try rift runs without losing a ton of IP, and get players who otherwise might avoid it, a chance to try it out, and perhaps becoming frequent rift runners.

Good idea, where have I heard the concept of some tokens that give you free rift runs particularly for new players so they can try it out that before *thinks hard* was it earlier in this thread or was it years ago in my reward rework thread, or was it all of the above?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards Revamp and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 24, 2016, 11:28:47 AM
You'll roughly get 2250 off the price. Almost half of what boosters cost now.

2 Penta-packs cost 6000 IP, give 2 guaranteed rares or higher, 10 cards total
1 Collection Booster costs 5250 IP, gives 1 guaranteed rare or higher, 3 uncommons or higher, 15 cards total.

You're getting more rares, and less uncommons and commons. You're also getting boosters much more frequently, which alleviates the 'booster grind' players often complain about. I don't think you'll hate opening penta-packs as much as you might think.

seems that after a while commons/uncommons will stop being useless however rares+ will lose a lot of value.
same goes for rifts 10 wins for an epic seems to easy.
5-15-30 imho.

In all honesty i am all for it. cause getting cards will be much more easy for the ftp and with the higher drop "premium" packs more easy for the players who choose to invest.
i just really hope lm/yodo1 had a good economist look at all these changes and they know what the future holds for the trading economy.

edit: 5-15-30 kinda random maybe 6-12-24 or 7-14-28.

epic at 10 pretty much means you give everyone an epic for the price of a rare right now. that is way to much of a jump imho.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 24, 2016, 11:32:47 AM
Have you considered offering 1 free Rift Run a week to all players? This would alleviate concerns that people can't try rift runs without losing a ton of IP, and get players who otherwise might avoid it, a chance to try it out, and perhaps becoming frequent rift runners.

Good idea, where have I heard the concept of some tokens that give you free rift runs particularly for new players so they can try it out that before *thinks hard* was it earlier in this thread or was it years ago in my reward rework thread, or was it all of the above?

I misread your post, I thought you said 'free rift tokens' and I thought... what are rift tokens? Then just moved on due to disinterest. My bad.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 24, 2016, 11:39:10 AM
Have you considered offering 1 free Rift Run a week to all players? This would alleviate concerns that people can't try rift runs without losing a ton of IP, and get players who otherwise might avoid it, a chance to try it out, and perhaps becoming frequent rift runners.

Good idea, where have I heard the concept of some tokens that give you free rift runs particularly for new players so they can try it out that before *thinks hard* was it earlier in this thread or was it years ago in my reward rework thread, or was it all of the above?

I misread your post, I thought you said 'free rift tokens' and I thought... what are rift tokens? Then just moved on due to disinterest. My bad.

Its ok I know you 'speed' (aka dont) read my posts :P im just teasing you about it hehe
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Candit on February 24, 2016, 11:44:37 AM
Penta packs are a benefit for the community but I am against taking away the Star Trek packs. I guess this is a way to phase them out and avoid paying for the licensing fees since they did not do their job in hooking players? Whatever the case is, we knew there would be good and bad changes with the relaunch and it had to start somewhere. To add to this, if I am wrong about licensing, then it would take absolutely no effort for them to keep the Star Trek packs as they are since they are not even  ranked legal, but alas...

Hope Overseers get some actual support and deck variety if I am to be forced to fork up LM points for their packs...
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 24, 2016, 11:45:54 AM
token a week seems a lot in the long run tbh.
deffo offer a few to new comers though so they could test the rift format many games do that.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 24, 2016, 01:18:25 PM
The best news was at the end were you said "12 new hires".

My main concern is with the ratios of Common:Uncommon:Rare:Epic:Legendary  :-\
(note: bellow is a simplification of ratios to give a general sense of the frequency of cards -- any statistician who would like to give a better, more accurate, look at this is more than welcome and I'd love to read it)

Will you publish the targeted ratios for common:uncommon:rare:epic:legendary? I feel like 1 in 5 being rare+ means that only 1 in 5 will be uncommon leaving 3 in 5 as common (3:1:1) because if 2 are uncommon then effectively there is no uncommon class (2:2:1). Even if you spread the ratio out to 2.5:1.5:1 then you have around a 63% drop in frequency per tier -- carry that through all the rarities and it looks like this 6.25:3.75:2.5:1.58:1. 6.25 commons for every 1 Legendary, that is obsurd. If you make the drop in frequency significantly more as we move beyond the Rare tier then either Uncommons will be near-rare or near-common and all will be fairly common in general.  ???

But there is a hint that you intend to mimic Magic, drop Legendary, and shift all cards down one rarity level. :o

If you plan to remove the Uncommon class and go with (4:1), which would seem closer to a standard ratio but would effectively make Rares the new Uncommon. There is also a mirror to Magic's 4 tiers and ratios but instead of 11:3:1 (with a 1/8 chance of mythic), we would have 4:1 which, over 3 packs would be be 12:3 and if the chance for an Epic is drawn from the Common (currently all Common and Uncommon cards) cards (meaning it doesn't replace the Rare) and we aim for 1 rare in 3 packs we get 11:3:1... familiar. Then make legendaries a 1in8 on the Epics and we are statistically mirroring Magic. And Rare isn't Rare at all, it is Uncommon. Epic is Rare. And Legendary is Mythic Rare. 

Now this is a proven ratio, so I can't fault it other than this: everyone who has worked so hard to collect Rare+ cards is going to see a significant drop in the value of their collection. If we had been getting 3 rares and 1 epic in every pack we had already bought, we wouldn't have been paying the prices we did for those cards.  :o

You can see why I'd like to see how you intend to build the rarity system and how it differs from what we have now.

Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: TheRealTuna on February 24, 2016, 01:22:28 PM
I am both suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper happy to see updates, and suuuuuuuuuuuuuper skeptical about the content of the update.

The new draft rewards are going to make enormous waves in the game's economy. Awarding Rares+ golds to people is very, very scary. And it's not really the gold or foil rares that I would be skeptical of, but the gold or foil epics and even legendaries.

Premium epics and legendaries are extremely exclusive, and quite honestly they should be. They are among the hardest things in the game to acquire statistically, and I am not sure I am too excited about having them awarded to people, no matter the feat.

Now, of course, I am extremely biased, since I have collected premium cards for a long time and have spent a lot of money doing so. I would hate to see my investments crushed by such drastic changes to the market, and would definitely be more than a little scornful towards LM/Yodo1 if that is what happens.

On the other hand, I do feel that awarding things of value to players instead of just the crap we get currently is fantastic. I am just concerned about the exact content of what is being awarded, because I predict that it will result in a major devaluation of a lot of things.

I 100% agree that players should be given "rift run tokens" during the level up process so they can be exposed to what the format as without taking a big IP hit. Or weekly free runs, etc.

I also agree with Adora's point that it would be much better to simply tell us how things work rather than have us figure it out. Again, this will only result in confusion. You guys have done a phenomenal job improving transparency in the area of communication; hopefully the same can happen with game content.

I DISAGREE with what has been said about Infinity-bordered cards. I think this is a nice idea. Like a new Title or battlefield or alt art card, this is a fine way to show off an accomplishment (although I think I would prefer being able to create a title or receiving an exclusive title). Only issue I have with it -- I think they are a bit too exclusive the way they are set up now, ESPECIALLY without being able to actually select the card that you want to be border'd. While they should be exclusive, they shouldn't be AS exclusive as they are now.

Overall, I am ecstatic that LM/Yodo1 is taking the initiative to try and make the game better. Juuuuuust be careful that the awards you are proposing make sense.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 24, 2016, 01:52:32 PM
Another question: when you bolt the IP to USD. What will be the cost? So we can decide if we should buy now or later. XD
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Symphony on February 24, 2016, 03:03:34 PM
Quote
I think its going to seriously turn people away from the formate when there first 3 runs are 0-3 and they've lost 7500 IP for nothing in one afternoon.
This is one main topic we've been discussing on discord today. There needs to be a serious evaluation on how rift fits in the NPE before making changes such as this. It heavily favours vets and majorly turns newbies away.

Quote
Here ill be giving this out free to anyone that beats me in rift from now on.
I am actually way more compelled to get adora's blue rectangle that ib cards. Seriously, I need to queue rifts when adora is on now. The problem is that I just can't play any of the tournaments because of the timeslots (I do believe they're pretty inclusive, but they're locked to 2 time frames I simply can't attend) and I'm not going to ever get #1 in rift reset because ES, merlin adora and co will 100% get a better score than my best rift run ever.

Quote
We need to know what the drop rates are for both for consumer confidence and also if we are to be able to judge how the new system compares to the old system.
200% this. Not saying anything goes 180º from what they've been doing so far and we NEED to know details in order to properly judge the system.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 24, 2016, 03:15:52 PM
Quote
I think its going to seriously turn people away from the formate when there first 3 runs are 0-3 and they've lost 7500 IP for nothing in one afternoon.
I feel the same, having to pay 2500 IP as an entry fee (new players will likely spend IP first rather than buying LP from the start) is too much for new players. At the very least, if you're increasing the cost set it to 2000 IP, don't go higher than that, it's too punishing for casual players who want to draft (as for the new 85 LP fee.... I'd say 75 LP, it will already be +50% as the current 50 LP).

Quote
Premium epics and legendaries are extremely exclusive, and quite honestly they should be. They are among the hardest things in the game to acquire statistically, and I am not sure I am too excited about having them awarded to people, no matter the feat.
This is a very serious matter for the game economy, I know epics and legendary premiums are hard to find in the game... and I feel the same way as Tuna, they should be. There are lots of players that have spend a lot of money getting boosters, blisters, and even buying a rift run deck just to get that premium rare+ that was drafted... it's like a slap in the face to those people to now just hand them out like this. I know it takes skill to draft and win, but still... this is a major change in the economy that I feel is not necessary, it will devaluate a lot of things.

Quote
I 100% agree that players should be given "rift run tokens" during the level up process so they can be exposed to what the format as without taking a big IP hit. Or weekly free runs, etc.

This is a good idea, it will encourage new players to try out the rift run format.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 24, 2016, 03:33:12 PM
Some questions/feedback for Lightmare/Yobo1

Quote
There will be a minimum of 10 different kinds of Penta Packs available in the store at all times including:

    Core Penta Pack – Has a chance to drop any card in the game.
    Expansion Penta Pack – Has a chance to drop cards from the latest expansion set.
    8 different faction Penta Packs – Will only drop cards from a specific faction.

All of the 10 Penta Packs described above will have a chance to drop premium cards with similar drop rates to the old booster pack formats.

So basically the Core Penta Pack draws from the whole card pool, like the current Collection Booster, I guess this solves the 'should Core IW2013 Boosters drop premiums?' issue.

As for the Core + Expansion + Faction-specific packs... I like the idea, should be clearer for new players to know what to get now.

Quote
The price for each of the faction Penta Packs will be set at a significantly higher price of 450LP and will not be available via IP purchase. Faction Penta Packs cost more because they allow players to draw from a much smaller pool of faction targeted cards, allowing you to more easily acquire cards to complete a specific deck/combo.

I agree that faction specific packs should cost more, I seriously disagree that they should only be purchasable with LP. If anything, put a really high price for IP, but at least give the option to get them that way too. LP-wise they'll cost +50% compared to Core/Expansion packs (300 + 150 = 450 LP), the same with IP would be 3000 + 1500 = 4500 LP, I'd say allow the option of getting faction-specific packs for 5000 IP (or even 5500 IP), it's higher so you're still allowing people to get them with IP, but it should encourage people to get LP cost it's more efficient. Making them LP-only will give the feeling of a P2W scenario in my opinion.

Quote
For those wanting to purchase existing Booster/Blister packs that are currently available in the store, we encourage you to do it now or sometime before 1.4.12 is rolled out onto the live servers sometime in the next few weeks. Especially the Star Trek Blister Pack, Star Trek Phase One Pack, and the Omni Collector’s Pack since the cards from these packs will not be available in the new Penta Pack format.

Why phase out the Star Trek card? and the Omni Collector's Packs too? I really don't see the reason for this. Leave these available, but convert those packs into Penta Packs to be consistent with the rest. I'd love to hear an explanation as to why you guys want to remove these packs from the store.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on February 24, 2016, 03:53:29 PM
Just dropping in to let everyone that we're reading all the feedback on this thread so keep it coming.  Instead of responding to individual posts/questions, we'll likely let the thread keep evolving for a few more days, then answers questions in aggregate in a single post.

We do appreciate the feedback that everyone is giving and in order to help us understand and respond to your feedback better, I would like ask that you all help to structure your feedback/responses/questions as clearly, concisely and constructively as possible.

These posts and pre-announcements are a way for us to give the community an early preview of what's coming so that we can get feedback.  The next step will be opening these changes up on the PBE servers so that everyone can experience these hands-on and kick the tires around to try out how things feel in practice, rather than on paper.

We'll be monitoring the feedback throughout the entire process as well as analyzing in-game metrics in order to tune, balance and optimize game design.  Know that the IW team is working hard to bring you all a better game experience and the upcoming changes are simply a first steps of a long journey to take the game to the next level.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 24, 2016, 04:03:36 PM
Slightly related follow up to my comment that this announcement *could* be a migration to Magic's rarity system (and what that might mean for the cards currently in exsistance).

Is the intent to maintain the original goal that increased rarity means increased tactical options, not increased raw power?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: IguanaMan on February 24, 2016, 04:43:07 PM
I think we need to take a look at the big picture, with daily rewards giving out mostly soulbound  commons+uncommons and no more 100% IP boost tokens the game is more grindy.

I really love the frequency of updates and information but why can't you guys talk to some of the major players that have been with IW from the start.  Specifically;

Adorabear
Heliosaflame
Merlinix

...and many others but these are the ones off the top of my head.  Adora in particular has yrs of experience with this game and has made loads of suggestions that are well thought out.

It's great that you are accepting feedback via forums. But when its posted here/on beta server its hard to reverse decisions.  Why not get the Infinity Council going again and take their advice first?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 24, 2016, 04:50:10 PM
Quote
- Guaranteed Rare starting at 5 wins (vs 9 wins before)
- Guaranteed Epic starting at 10 wins (vs 18 wins before)
- Guaranteed Legendary starting at 21 wins (vs 35 wins before)
- For higher win runs, there’ll now be Gold and Infinity border drops, including rare, epic, and legendary premium drops, which we’ll let you discover for yourselves…

Just to be clear, the chance to get premiums from rift runs comes from getting more than 21 wins, right?

Quote
4. Forums are bugged, why does it say I am connecting to Aletasarchive? Did someone hack the forums? Forums are loading very slowly.

Same here... what's going on with the forums?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Johnny_Retro on February 24, 2016, 05:05:56 PM
It's great that you are accepting feedback via forums. But when its posted here/on beta server its hard to reverse decisions.  Why not get the Infinity Council going again and take their advice first?
+1
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Grinnin_Gin on February 24, 2016, 05:21:39 PM
Still waiting on word if the Infinity Council will get a reinstatement. And it seems like people were mentioning this before me, well, that's good to see.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Brueson on February 24, 2016, 05:54:56 PM
Upping the entry few is not great for me whatever the rewards. I stopped playing MTG Online because I couldn't justify the costs for buying into a draft tourney. I just like matching up against people building decks on the fly and seeing what pans out. I took all my rare cards and sold them so I could buy more booster packs to play in more draft tournaments. Rinse and Repeat.

As a possible feature for people like me that don't have much time/money and only really enjoy Rift Runs. Can I have an option of starting a Rift Run for a lower amount or free, with the expectation that I won't get anything for free at the end. If I could log in and play Rift Runs all the time for free, maybe only getting the weekly rewards for placing high, I would play IW forever.

If it was free for me to enter, I could knock out those that paid to get in and make you more money. Since I am not going to get tradeable cards for winning, no extra cards get introduced into the system and this forces more people to pay you to get cards.

This also has the added benefit of making Rift Runs more active since we free playing cannon fodder keep the Rift Runs active. In other pvp games, this free to play tier helps keep the battlefield fresh, which is always good for the community as a whole.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Symphony on February 24, 2016, 06:11:24 PM
Quote
Same here... what's going on with the forums?
Aleta's Archive is down, so the forum is trying to communicate with it to get card images from the database, but it's failing to do so, thus the crappy loadings.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: MerliniX on February 24, 2016, 06:26:12 PM
I have to disagree with some of what has been said - specifically the negative impact of additional Gold/Foil cards being released through Rift Runs.

As of right now Gold, Foil, and Gold/Foil cards are incredibly difficult to obtain. Some people have done the work and obtained them anyway, and I understand these people are probably most upset with additional cards of these types being distributed as they stand the most to lose on their investment.

However, the drop rate of these premiums are abysmal compared to other games of the same genre (i.e. Hearthstone). First, let us assume that the primary motivation for players to collect these cards is to pimp out their decks and get an all foil, or all gold or all gold/foil deck. In Hearthstone, while this might be a daunting task, it is entirely possible to obtain an entire premium deck by dusting the majority of your collection and crafting the cards you wish to acquire. Granted you would need a very large collection to do so, but it is still an obtainable goal that a player can sink 2000 hours into and achieve.

Now let us compare to Infinity Wars. If I wanted to make an entirely Gold/Foil Tinkercide deck (a deck which is fairly budget to be honest), it would be nigh impossible. In fact I do not even know if a sufficient number of Gold Foil copies of all of the cards actually even exist! Obtaining even a small fraction of the cards in this deck in gold/foil would be a huge undertaking, or would cost quite a bit of money.

Making these cards more obtainable is probably something that needs to happen to keep the vast majority of players interested in them at all. I know for me personally, if there is 0 reasonable chance of me making an entire deck/command zone of a matching premium type then they have very little draw for me and are only valuable as a means to trade or sell for other things I value.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Grinnin_Gin on February 24, 2016, 06:39:46 PM
And now the issue is, we're stuck with these cards which have been devalued to the point of nigh worthlessness, assuming that we're only talking about golds and foils. Platinums, at least, are still valuable.

But the whole thing is that we're losing out on an incredible amount of investment, and there's no way they could possibly compensate us for our losses.

We worked hard, extremely hard to obtain the vast collections that the top traders in the game had/have.

I was the first person probably ever in the history of Infinity Wars, to have a tradable set of foil Dark Wishes. I was the first person to have an all-foil Verore deck, and it took me months upon months of searching for the key pieces.

While since I've sold a lot of my collection, the point I'm trying to make is that all that effort that others have put into collecting, as well as the personal pride that one can take in said collecting (which is just as real as the pride of being a top player in the game), now stands to be destroyed.

Ideally, there should be some kind of compensation to these people, but odds are there will not, and just logically there cannot be. So, we get bent over for the sake of the player base, and our personal investments are made ultimately more shallow.

Oh, and to make matters worse, they're introducing a premium type that is available to the portion of the player base that comparatively values premiums the least, and ONLY to them. That's a real kick in the balls.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Stako4350 on February 24, 2016, 06:41:16 PM
Like the idea about reducing the win amounts in the rift runs for rare,epics etc but to increase the entry fee from 1000-2500 Lp seems to me to bit a little counter productive as think as players who struggle in rift runs will abandon them all together at that entry price.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: MerliniX on February 24, 2016, 06:47:43 PM
Oh, and to make matters worse, they're introducing a premium type that is available to the portion of the player base that comparatively values premiums the least, and ONLY to them. That's a real kick in the balls.

Infinite Borders are not being released to only a portion of the playerbase. They are being released to everyone. Whether everyone chooses to put in the work to obtain them is up to them. It is very similar to how you said you spent months trading to obtain your all foil verore deck, if you want Infinite border cards you, and others, can instead spend months honing your tournament or rift run skills and obtain the cards.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 24, 2016, 06:51:37 PM
I do like that Infinity Borders can't be bought. They are a legitimate badge of merit.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Teremus on February 24, 2016, 06:53:20 PM
These updates lack a significant amount of Cheese.

Colour me disappointed.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Illusive_Mike on February 24, 2016, 06:54:29 PM
It has already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating with emphasis (even by a lowly lurker like me). Right now, there is little incentive to play RR in any way but strictly high-level competitive. The system as it is relies on wins, which are in turn someone else's defeats. That is precisely the reason I haven't played RR since my first couple of attempts, and new rewards are not going to draw me back, especially with higher buy-ins. If I want to play for fun without looking through a ton of tutorials to raise my level and spending a bunch of currency practicing, all I can currently do in RR is pay for the pros' rewards and I don't want that.

You want to get more people into RR? Don't change the rewards at all, definitely don't introduce Rare+ non-IB premiums, but just give players some free RR tokens. If you give them on level-ups... eh, they wouldn't burn IP trying it like I did. I would, however, prefer if they were to keep coming. Like in the Day 5 reward, but the 5 day cycle is a bit too generous even for my greedy self (and +1 to those who ask about the blisters in rewards now that blisters are going away). Having some renewable-ish (if infrequent; really, every 5 days is too much) way to enter RR for free would really get the casual players and experience-based learners there. If I got, say, a bi-weekly RR token, I would come back there and have fun, even if I don't get anything. So, incidentally, what you'll get in the end is same improvement for the pros (who would have more of us casuals to pad their wins) and fun for the rest. Which keeps us in your game and eventually makes us give you money. All of that is just my narrow view, though; I would love to see someone give a proper analysis on this, especially those who do play RR and people who understand game economies in general.

Sorry if these things have already been stated here and elsewhere, but since it's one of the main points of this dev post, I wish to give my feedback, no matter how unoriginal.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 24, 2016, 07:11:56 PM
It has already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating with emphasis (even by a lowly lurker like me). Right now, there is little incentive to play RR in any way but strictly high-level competitive.

believe it or not but the greatest incentive in RR for most players is actually drafting.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Thechynd on February 24, 2016, 07:14:16 PM
Have to say that I  absolutely hate the idea of no longer allowing players to get packs of specific sets. If there are issues with the packs not being clear enough for new players then just have the collection pack and most recent expansion be the first items in the shop list with them clearly labelled as "Contains cards from every set!" and "Newest expansion!".
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Illusive_Mike on February 24, 2016, 07:25:41 PM
It has already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating with emphasis (even by a lowly lurker like me). Right now, there is little incentive to play RR in any way but strictly high-level competitive.

believe it or not but the greatest incentive in RR for most players is actually drafting.

That's just my opinion, badly phrased at that (seriously, bad phrasing on my part). I like the drafting itself. I just don't like it being set up as a total IP sink if you don't excel at it, when in constructed experimenting is free. Again, may be that's the point. But in that case why bring up inclusiveness among the reasons for the drafting changes if it's strictly to benefit those that do well in that mode already?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 24, 2016, 07:29:42 PM
It has already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating with emphasis (even by a lowly lurker like me). Right now, there is little incentive to play RR in any way but strictly high-level competitive.

believe it or not but the greatest incentive in RR for most players is actually drafting.

That's just my opinion, badly phrased at that (seriously, bad phrasing on my part). I like the drafting itself. I just don't like it being set up as a total IP sink if you don't excel at it, when in constructed experimenting is free. Again, may be that's the point. But in that case why bring up inclusiveness among the reasons for the drafting changes if it's strictly to benefit those that do well in that mode?

Drafting in a TCG has always been a resource sink of some sort, usually money. If it wasn't a resource sink than it shouldn't have rewards. Compared to a game like Magic, IW's draft is crazy cheap.

Maybe make the practice mode PvP for those who want to draft but just hemorrhage IP doing so. 
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 24, 2016, 07:45:55 PM
It has already been said in this thread, but it bears repeating with emphasis (even by a lowly lurker like me). Right now, there is little incentive to play RR in any way but strictly high-level competitive.

believe it or not but the greatest incentive in RR for most players is actually drafting.

That's just my opinion, badly phrased at that (seriously, bad phrasing on my part). I like the drafting itself. I just don't like it being set up as a total IP sink if you don't excel at it, when in constructed experimenting is free. Again, may be that's the point. But in that case why bring up inclusiveness among the reasons for the drafting changes if it's strictly to benefit those that do well in that mode already?

kinda failed to make my point as well and was about to edit lol..
first changes will benefit those who do well and even a bit to much imho cause atm it is 9 for a rare which is underwhelming, 10 for an epic seems to much but w/e.

anyway point i was trying to make is that if you are bad at the drafting format or you don't like the drafting format, it being for free will not change anything.

the increase in cost and rewards is great for vets and people who are good in draft and will actually hurt those who are bad?

In all honesty though if you are going 0-3/3-3 in draft all the time. it is hard for me to believe you are having fun. so 1k or 2.5k is the same thing? ip thrown away for no good reason?
only solution is to seek help and get better.

giving incentive to play draft for people who are bad at it or don't like the drafting process achieves nothing imo.
giving draft tokens to newcomers to try it out sure maybe even a weekly ticket for everyone.

new draft incentive is get better to get better rewards sounds good to me. but that is just an opinion.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: TheRealTuna on February 24, 2016, 07:46:34 PM
.

Now let us compare to Infinity Wars. If I wanted to make an entirely Gold/Foil Tinkercide deck (a deck which is fairly budget to be honest), it would be nigh impossible. In fact I do not even know if a sufficient number of Gold Foil copies of all of the cards actually even exist! Obtaining even a small fraction of the cards in this deck in gold/foil would be a huge undertaking, or would cost quite a bit of money.

Making these cards more obtainable is probably something that needs to happen to keep the vast majority of players interested in them at all. I know for me personally, if there is 0 reasonable chance of me making an entire deck/command zone of a matching premium type then they have very little draw for me and are only valuable as a means to trade or sell for other things I value.

While I absolutely agree that somehow making these cards more obtainable would ultimately positively impact the game, simply injecting them into the collection players via draft rewards is not the way to do it.

As Gin explained, major traders have spent an enormous amount of time and money to obtain their collections. To suddenly devalue their collections by making everything they worked for suddenly much more easily obtainable would be a huge kick in the balls. These people are among the game's most notable contributors, and it doesn't sound like smart business to invalidate their support by effectively throwing their investments into the garbage. Think about a company and it's shareholders, for example...if you're the company in question, and you persuaded shareholders to invest in your company, you are definitely not going to compromise the interests of your shareholders, lest they all leave and your business remains unfunded.

There are a lot of different ways in which premiums can be made slightly more available without completely decimating the economy. Crafting systems, premium packs containing 1 gold or 1 foil with a very low chance of gold-foil (careful with these kinds of packs, ratios need to really be tested carefully), I definitely don't think it's a bad idea to have there be a chance of draft rewards to be premium, just not guaranteed as OP suggests...

I definitely maintain that awarding gold or foil rares and even higher could really screw with peoples' collections and the market in general. If it has to be done, I would definitely scale down the amount that is awarded, and reduce rewards to gold or foil or gold-foil commons + uncommons with EXTREMELY low chances at something higher.

As for the higher than 21 wins = premium stuff, again, same issue -- if it has to happen, don't guarantee something with rarity of rare or higher.

Also, please indicate to us how many wins equates to what reward. Maybe a certain amount of wins = gold-foil common + leg, a certain amount of wins = gold-foil uncommon + leg, and so on. It is so important to be clear about these things, so as not to cause confusion for people.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Chalkbot on February 24, 2016, 07:48:56 PM
I'm indifferent to most of the changes, except raising entry to 2500 IP.

I see this as a pretty big barrier, and that's coming from someone who is relatively certain that I can make it all back. If the goal of these changes is to bring more people into rift, we have to assume they are not already regulars there, and thus we're targeting a "newer audience". They don't have a ton of IP to spare. Worse yet, they don't come into rift with an expectation of winning 10 games. It's all downside for these players and no upside.

Believe it or not, but there are a lot of people who play rift because they enjoy draft format. Decreasing the cost to play rift is the equivalent of increasing the reward to these players. Playing is the reward. Therefore INCREASING the cost to play is effectively the inverse.

If this rolls out as described, I fully expect to get a grip of epic rarity cards, all the while watching the rift community become distilled to only the most familiar names. 10 minute matchmaker queues ahead?

If you want to appeal to the widest audience, remember that the sharks don't mind swimming with the fishes, but the fishes hate swimming with the sharks. Incentivize the fishes.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Illusive_Mike on February 24, 2016, 08:13:42 PM
anyway point i was trying to make is that if you are bad at the drafting format or you don't like the drafting format, it being for free will not change anything.

the increase in cost and rewards is great for vets and people who are good in draft and will actually hurt those who are bad?

In all honesty though if you are going 0-3/3-3 in draft all the time. it is hard for me to believe you are having fun. so 1k or 2.5k is the same thing? ip thrown away for no good reason?
only solution is to seek help and get better.

giving incentive to play draft for people who are bad at it or don't like the drafting process achieves nothing imo.
giving draft tokens to newcomers to try it out sure maybe even a weekly ticket for everyone.

(Preemptive apology if further miscommunication occurs here.)

But that is exactly my point. Drafting itself is fun. Fun is not necessarily about rewards. Otherwise, hardcore competitive is the only way anyway. But (and here's the point you may have missed) the buy-ins have turned me away from draft before I could get any good at it. Sometimes it's fun to find out what works and what doesn't on your own, but that just runs into a wall of grinding (I tried it back when 1000 IP meant something, and now we're getting a raise to 2500). So I stopped. Consequence? No, I don't get 0-3/3-3. I just play Constructed. I don't currently draft and do not intend to try again until some way exists for it to be fun for me. Maybe free PvP practice mode with no rewards, like Drarz mentioned (because the current one runs on current bots that are both premade and weak). Maybe free tokens. Just some way, it doesn't have to be exploitable. And just because I may seem passionate on the subject doesn't mean I don't get fun from the game as a whole or really, irresistibly wish to play that particular mode without risking anything. I'm only stressing that because it is a major point of the dev post.

Also, I do accept "fun requires money" arguments. I know that my personal position is not the one the industry works on, hence request for comments. I'm just giving my own opinion.

PS: Also, while I was typing this, Chalkbot said it all...
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Klassick on February 24, 2016, 08:55:51 PM
About the Rift Run, we don't know yet its "real cost", because at the end of the run, maybe, one of the prizes can be IP too (what would lower the "real price" of the Rift, even after 3 loses).

==

Question: I know that will be more info about it soon but, I would like to know if we'll be able to use IP to buy the promotional packs that will be offered (those with alt. arts, etc.).
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: antideath on February 24, 2016, 09:22:46 PM
intresting changes indeed..
initial thoughts

Having LP only packs?
i do not think this is wise at all.


Core Penta Pack – Has a chance to drop any card in the game.

brutal change , being 5 cards...beginners will feel this right away.
IW has mentioned having too many cards in packs came an issue, but down to 5?
may be too far for my tastes and this will start to hurt even more when new cards are released..

Expansion Penta Pack – Has a chance to drop cards from the latest expansion set.

So? this pack is like normal? before its removed and broken down to be placed in above and below packs?
IF this pack is say Oppression then NO oppression cards should exist in the other 2 pack offers YES?

8 different faction Penta Packs – Will only drop cards from a specific faction.
These have been here bit now reduced to 5 per pack?? are they offered in GOLD guarantee versions for LP?


Guaranteed Rare starting at 5 wins (vs 9 wins before)
Guaranteed Epic starting at 10 wins (vs 18 wins before)
Guaranteed Legendary starting at 21 wins (vs 35 wins before)
For higher win runs, there’ll now be Gold and Infinity border drops, including rare, epic, and legendary premium drops, which we’ll let you discover for yourselves…


2500 IP? ouch.
Please be ready for Submissions of losing IP due to bugs/players that can occur in a draft at this amount.
Please offer a Casual RIFT mode PVP then as its an enjoyable casual learning mode as well.

Rewards..i think are all wrong....We should be winning PACKS not individual cards. Especially for collectors the randomness of a pack opening will keep that in check.
but the 5/10/21 i do believe is more in line/realistic for playerbase.
(2 packs/ 3 packs / 4 packs if replacing rears to P PACKS)
are the IP amounts going to be adjusted as well?
(if so the 2500 IP might not be as brutal, if your lowering a rare to 5 will we get old level 9's IP at end of round?)

Start giving these premiums away in Drafts as i/many suggested before was not received well at all
(why cant ALL the cards given in rewards be chance Random Premiums?)
Collectors hated it..yet here it is in another fashion. (21+ wins area...)
getting a premium IN the actual draft process of the deck is OK still random and neat sometimes forcing a player to buy a deck for said card even for all players not elite. even if not premium..

IW Blue Borders a-ok soulbound no issues.
but i realize this could take away a potential Tradeable card i might have otherwise got if New Blue border was not introduced....?


Top 50 Rewards..This i believe you can do whatever you wish looks pretty generous to me.
it does not effect my gameplay, while all the other changes do.


PENTA PACKS Feels like you cleverly worded in this that each pack will contain at least 1 Rare.
AND this said rare will either move up to epic or legend. leading to  the days of multiple Epics, a legend and epic or combos will be gone in a pack chance?? sure hope not! the excitement of opening a pack and getting  2 coyle's (or other neat combo) is something every player should have a chance at. like seeing 3 rares ect..it happens!
are our chances better for cards to be premium golds /foils in Penta Packs too?? probably not huh? so only the Super players will get them in draft...
Seems packs will slow collecting now premium s too. will see though.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 24, 2016, 09:26:15 PM
Everyone has made good points based on their own perspectives. Some points have been hammered across the board and others have only been mentioned a few times, but I think they're all important.

I agree that making premiums available so easily to so many people will kill their values. This is a mistake/change that I would rather not see go forward. I remember you mentioning wanting to do premium packs for LP. I think this approach would be better because we'd be able to put a value on Premium cards based on the cost of the packs. While the value may change since there will be a flood of them, they won't inherently become valueless because there will still be a cost to gain them. Truth is there is a hit to the economy no matter what path you choose, but I think the smallest hit would be this instead of rewarding them every week or so to (let's face it) the same top players.

I agree that the cost for Rift Runs currently is too low. But I think the change is too high. I think the rewards are too generous no matter how much you charge us, offering rare+ premiums isn't the best option available. You're trying to give out rewards for hard work but are offering things that you shouldn't be. There is more to offer than rares, premiums, and untradable bordered cards. Now is a good time to introduce different kinds of rewards. Some may not be tradeable but may be better appreciated. Options are different card backs, different avatars, hall of fame mentioning, specific special alt. art cards, letting them design something specific, unlockable gallery art. All kinds of things that won't effect economy.

I disagree with some that the Infinity Borders don't mean puffy. I like them. Blue is my favorite color though so that's why they don't look ugly to me maybe? I don't know. But an easy solution is to change the color. I think since they're 'Infinity' They should change colors the way when you get a legendary card in a pack does when it's face down.

I don't like the 5 card packs. Even if they are for specific factions I just don't like them. Getting 5 cards is underwhelming. I mentioned before I think new players are going to feel ripped off trying to get specific faction cards but having to pay real money for it before they've even decided they really like the game. There are better ways to make money in my opinion. I don't like that we can't pay IP for the faction packs. Significantly increase the amount of IP if you have to but don't make "Necessary" packs be only available with LP.

I understand that Alt. Art Packs, and other packs you have in mind won't be a regular thing. Do you have a schedule planned out for them? Can you make one if you don't. I can't tell you how, unimaginably pissed the puffy off I will be if something I want finally gets put up for sale, but I don't have the money for it because I didn't know it was happening and I spent it all on something else. I will hate you. And I will buy from 3rd party peeps instead when I get the money.

What's the deal with Foundation? Will preorder only be available with LP? I need to know because if they will, then I can spend my IP on the 15 card packs that are still available while I still can.

There's more to be said, good points other players have made and so on. And then there's things I haven't thought about yet but I know I will eventually. I know you guys are trying hard. I know you're trying to fix current issues and are proud of what you've accomplished so far. Frankly you should be because you breathed new life back into this game. But it's hard to be proud of you because a lot of decisions you're making I'm not liking. I am a free to play player, and I spend money occasionally when I can afford it. I like collecting cards, and playing with people at the same level as me and slowly working my way into higher tier players but that's not something that is properly set up at the moment.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 24, 2016, 10:04:25 PM
As for the higher than 21 wins = premium stuff, again, same issue -- if it has to happen, don't guarantee something with rarity of rare or higher.

This.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 24, 2016, 10:08:12 PM
I personally dislike the idea of the penta packs because they will make commons and uncommons cost more also it will give people less of a reason to trade because as is people often just trade away the cards for factions they dislike. With this change some factions like FD will have there  cards tank in value well warpath will spike because of how many of them there are. Also with this system it discourages playing more then one faction because all your cards are just going to be for it. Finally I also dislike this because with the removal of being able to pick your set you can not longer avoid the sets that are soon to be removed unless you want to lead up on only the latest set.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 24, 2016, 11:06:29 PM
I think yes its possible theres going to be way to many golds and foils introduced this way. (Especially if they basically do something similar for ranked rewards later) But I dont think old collectors golds not being as valuable is a reason against this. They always knew golds and foils would devalue as more of them entered the game. They knew full well that plats are the only cards that wont enter the game ever again so if they were 'investing' they would have been investing in plat premiums.

Besides as merlin said currently there just isnt enough golds and foils to go around. Its almost impossible to even get a specific matching command zone let alone a deck of only 40 cards.

Second besides, there are no goldfoils listed in the rewards so those at least will stay super rare and the collectors basically have a monopoly on those at the moment.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 24, 2016, 11:07:43 PM
I personally dislike the idea of the penta packs because they will make commons and uncommons cost more

Well, actually that's a good thing, right now commons and uncommons are worth nothing at all, no one looks for them anymore in trade cause everybody has them, if commons and uncommons value increases it's by no means a bad thing I think.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 24, 2016, 11:29:14 PM
I personally dislike the idea of the penta packs because they will make commons and uncommons cost more

Well, actually that's a good thing, right now commons and uncommons are worth nothing at all, no one looks for them anymore in trade cause everybody has them, if commons and uncommons value increases it's by no means a bad thing I think.

Rares will be 1 in 5.

I think I'm the only one who thinks the price and rewards of Rifts is the small bit of information here.

Rares are the new Uncommons. I have no idea what will happen to existing uncommons, but I think we are moving to magic's 11 Commons, 3 Uncommons (our Rare), and 1 Rare or Mythic  (our Epic and Legendary) per 15 cards.

I really want to know how they will handle our existing collections if this is the case.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Teremus on February 24, 2016, 11:41:43 PM
Why would your existing collections have anything done to them at all?

Changes occur in video games, retroactive alterations to an entire playerbase are not all that common at all and need a rather drastic/dire reason to occur.

Discuss the potential pitfalls of the proposed system, that's great, but I wouldn't expect anything at all to happen to any current player's collections whatsoever.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 24, 2016, 11:42:19 PM
I personally dislike the idea of the penta packs because they will make commons and uncommons cost more

Well, actually that's a good thing, right now commons and uncommons are worth nothing at all, no one looks for them anymore in trade cause everybody has them, if commons and uncommons value increases it's by no means a bad thing I think.
Tell that to new players that are trying to get some core cards for there decks. With how it currently is the hardest part is getting some one willing to open a trade window to give you some uncommons or commons  with this change starting will be even harder for new players.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 24, 2016, 11:46:06 PM
Why would your existing collections have anything done to them at all?

Changes occur in video games, retroactive alterations to an entire playerbase are not all that common at all and need a rather drastic/dire reason to occur.

Discuss the potential pitfalls of the proposed system, that's great, but I wouldn't expect anything at all to happen to any current player's collections whatsoever.

The issue is that the card pool is so small that people will soon have every rare in the game with very little effort. The value of everything is going to go down. Maybe there are a lot of cards in this game compared to other games, but there aren't enough cards to do this and everything be okay with the economy.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 24, 2016, 11:55:29 PM
Why would your existing collections have anything done to them at all?

Changes occur in video games, retroactive alterations to an entire playerbase are not all that common at all and need a rather drastic/dire reason to occur.

Discuss the potential pitfalls of the proposed system, that's great, but I wouldn't expect anything at all to happen to any current player's collections whatsoever.

The issue is that the card pool is so small that people will soon have every rare in the game with very little effort. The value of everything is going to go down. Maybe there are a lot of cards in this game compared to other games, but there aren't enough cards to do this and everything be okay with the economy.
Commons and uncommons should go up in cost and epics and legendaries should to with the new system as 5 cards is going to cost way more then 15 dose now well none of the other stuff has a better drop rate.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: MerliniX on February 24, 2016, 11:59:28 PM
Why would your existing collections have anything done to them at all?

Changes occur in video games, retroactive alterations to an entire playerbase are not all that common at all and need a rather drastic/dire reason to occur.

Discuss the potential pitfalls of the proposed system, that's great, but I wouldn't expect anything at all to happen to any current player's collections whatsoever.

The issue is that the card pool is so small that people will soon have every rare in the game with very little effort. The value of everything is going to go down. Maybe there are a lot of cards in this game compared to other games, but there aren't enough cards to do this and everything be okay with the economy.
Commons and uncommons should go up in cost and epics and legendaries should to with the new system as 5 cards is going to cost way more then 15 dose now well none of the other stuff has a better drop rate.

In other words cards currently cost 20 LP each (300 LP for a 15 card booster) or 350 IP each (5250 IP for a 15 card booster).

Under these changes cards will go to 30 LP each (150 LP for a 5 card booster) or 600 IP each (3000 IP for a 5 card booster). Meaning everything is more expensive, but the people really taking the hit are the F2P players.

Edit:

Rares and up will be more common because a larger percentage of the cards in each pack will be Rare+, but the individual cost per card will almost double for the F2P player, and frequently what these players need are uncommons (Splitter, Lucca, Scouting Mission, etc) which will now be a smaller percentage of each pack and therefore harder to obtain.

I'm not saying that's good or bad, just pointing out what it will be.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 25, 2016, 12:09:26 AM
Under these changes cards will go to 30 LP each (150 LP for a 5 card booster) or 600 IP each (3000 IP for a 5 card booster). Meaning everything is more expensive, but the people really taking the hit are the F2P players.

Commons and uncommons are the core of the game and balanced around it, they are going to be nearly double the price so yea that hits new f2p players pretty hard. Especially since they cut back on IP per game by 100% recently.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 25, 2016, 12:17:20 AM
Under these changes cards will go to 30 LP each (150 LP for a 5 card booster) or 600 IP each (3000 IP for a 5 card booster). Meaning everything is more expensive, but the people really taking the hit are the F2P players.

Commons and uncommons are the core of the game and balanced around it, they are going to be nearly double the price so yea that hits new f2p players pretty hard. Especially since they cut back on IP per game by 100% recently.
Don't worry though IW has a huge following and almost no competition for online TCGs it will be fine. Except they need a ton of new players and there is a huge amount of competition for online TCGs.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 25, 2016, 12:20:14 AM
Why would your existing collections have anything done to them at all?

Changes occur in video games, retroactive alterations to an entire playerbase are not all that common at all and need a rather drastic/dire reason to occur.

Discuss the potential pitfalls of the proposed system, that's great, but I wouldn't expect anything at all to happen to any current player's collections whatsoever.

Because, at least effectively, there will be no uncommon class. They would only be keeping it around because existing collections have Uncommons. So obviously I'm missing how you fit two meaningful tiers of cards in a 4 card draw, or they are deleting one tier. How does that affect what we have now?

For more experienced players, the 15 pack booster pack format typically dropped a deluge of common/uncommon cards, and even with a guaranteed rare+ in each booster pack, the chance for getting a specific epic/legendary was so miniscule that it discouraged players from buying additional packs.

With the goal of solving the above issues in mind, we have designed the new Penta Packs which we hope will provide more clarity to players in terms of which packs to buy and why, as well as provide an overall higher drop rate for rare, epic and legendary cards. 

This statement also soft-sells the idea as "You get more Rares". Which is a bit misleading because they are really saying "Rare's are now Uncommon" and based on the numbers pitched it looks very similar to Magic's distribution so not only are Rares now Uncommon, but Epics are Rares, and Legendaries are Epics (or Mythic Rares).

So how does this change our cards now? Will Uncommon continue to be a tier? Is it justified in being a tier beyond "we don't want to make people feel like we are devaluing cards". This is why I'm asking for the ratios of Common and Uncommon -- is there a clever solution I'm not thinking of or are they just calling a common Rose by another name?

I'm not mad, I won't freak out if this is the surgery needed to fix this game. If the changes are as I suspect: I would love it if people got *something* for their collections and keeping this game going during the dark days. Just don't give me an apple and call it a pear -- be straight with me.



Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: gagaking on February 25, 2016, 12:24:01 AM
... And now I may have to redo all my draft probability calculations and cost benefit analysis in my guide, right after finding out my projected odds were matching up from chi squared testing my last 100+ drafts... :'(

... I really would like to know what the new odds are.

Also, rift runs costing more means its much harder to play another rift run after losing a few in a row. It forces you to grind for longer. For people who play rift runs because they actually enjoy it more than constructed, it will now be much harder to do so consistently.

I really do like that rift run rewards can be premiums now, though I'm not sure if it will be excessive or not.

I will try and wait to see how this affects rift runs and the community before passing too much judgement.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 25, 2016, 12:31:33 AM
Don't worry though IW has a huge following and almost no competition for online TCGs it will be fine. Except they need a ton of new players and there is a huge amount of competition for online TCGs.

If they do it right, they will be fine because this is the best online TCG. No other game could have survived what this game has gone through but we are all here because this is The Game. The problem is that we are all now stakeholders -- they don't (shouldn't) get to make changes without our consideration. It will be a challenge to fix this game with all of our collective investment in mind.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 25, 2016, 12:41:57 AM
Don't worry though IW has a huge following and almost no competition for online TCGs it will be fine. Except they need a ton of new players and there is a huge amount of competition for online TCGs.

If they do it right, they will be fine because this is the best online TCG. No other game could have survived what this game has gone through but we are all here because this is The Game. The problem is that we are all now stakeholders -- they don't (shouldn't) get to make changes without our consideration. It will be a challenge to fix this game with all of our collective investment in mind.
They need to make it easier to get into the game not harder witch is what this change dose as it makes the core cards most decks are based on commons and uncommons much harder for the new player to get well also devaluing the better cards in most long time players collections. With this change there are no winners only  losers.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Klassick on February 25, 2016, 12:43:34 AM
Maybe we are seeing here only a "small part" of the "elephant".

Idk if the fact of having 5 cards now at the boosters will be a bad thing for new players, for example. At a first glance, maybe it is.

BUT, we'll not have only new boosters. There will be new decks, other ways to get cards (for example, the campaign is being expanded right now, the quests will come back...), maybe other other ways to boost ip gain, and much more!

We don't know either what will be the rate of uncommons at those boosters too (they said that it is possible to gain more than a rare, for example). What we know for sure is that the chances of getting an epic or legendary card will be "significantly" higher.

For example, in a universe of 1500 cards (100 collec. boosters), I got only 5 legendaries... that said, idk what "significantly" mean here.

So, the problem is that we are not aware about everything that is being done right now, as a whole.

I am glad that the devs are giving us the opportunity to give our opinions before any changes, and I am even happier because they made clear that nothing is set in stone.

However, it would be nice to have more info about the other parts of the elephant to understand better were the game economy is going from here, and I know much of this information will come before 1.4.12 is rolled out.

And oh, if Star Trek will be really gone for now, it would be nice made a promotion on those cards before it happen =D

Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 25, 2016, 12:47:14 AM
Don't worry though IW has a huge following and almost no competition for online TCGs it will be fine. Except they need a ton of new players and there is a huge amount of competition for online TCGs.

If they do it right, they will be fine because this is the best online TCG. No other game could have survived what this game has gone through but we are all here because this is The Game. The problem is that we are all now stakeholders -- they don't (shouldn't) get to make changes without our consideration. It will be a challenge to fix this game with all of our collective investment in mind.
They need to make it easier to get into the game not harder witch is what this change dose as it makes the core cards most decks are based on commons and uncommons much harder for the new player to get well also devaluing the better cards in most long time players collections. With this change there are no winners only  losers.

Well, you don't know that. You are assuming no soul-bounds, no campaign and challenge rewards, no new player booster packs (limited number of soul bound boosters available at cheap IP prices). I could think of many ways to use the proposed prices and still make it easy or even easier to start playing.

But over the long term, for the long term players, they need to come up with a system that works and makes them money. If they can't do that, than all of this speculation is for not.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Klassick on February 25, 2016, 12:49:39 AM

[...]
Well, you don't know that. You are assuming no soul-bounds, no campaign and challenge rewards, no new player booster packs (limited number of soul bound boosters available at cheap IP prices). I could think of many ways to use the proposed prices and still make it easy or even easier to start playing.

But over the long term, for the long term players, they need to come up with a system that works and makes them money. If they can't do that, than all of this speculation is for not.

Agreed.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 25, 2016, 12:53:17 AM

[...]
Well, you don't know that. You are assuming no soul-bounds, no campaign and challenge rewards, no new player booster packs (limited number of soul bound boosters available at cheap IP prices). I could think of many ways to use the proposed prices and still make it easy or even easier to start playing.

But over the long term, for the long term players, they need to come up with a system that works and makes them money. If they can't do that, than all of this speculation is for not.

Agreed.
You guy are assuming they are plaing on giving new players a piles of free stuff when they start to play however that system sucks because as players slowly start to get less and less form that it feels terrible and a lot of people quit from that. Also the new system will suck for long time players either way because we got our new player bonuses and this makes it even harder for us to get packs pushing more people to just play draft.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 25, 2016, 01:03:54 AM
So, If a new player gets a 5 card pack but is looking for commons/uncommons. He'll trade his rare to get them. According to chaz's guide, he sees that it should be worth 10-15 cards right? So to him, it seems like a good deal. But with these changes, is that still accurate? Would it be fair? Is it a good thing that he would have to do this? I don't know. Maybe it is? But what if it's not?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 25, 2016, 01:06:12 AM

You guy are assuming they are plaing on giving new players a piles of free stuff when they start to play however that system sucks because as players slowly start to get less and less form that it feels terrible and a lot of people quit from that. Also the new system will suck for long time players either way because we got our new player bonuses and this makes it even harder for us to get packs pushing more people to just play draft.
At this rate, it might be better to save up to buy the draft decks instead of buying card packs.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 25, 2016, 01:11:19 AM
So, If a new player gets a 5 card pack but is looking for commons/uncommons. He'll trade his rare to get them. According to chaz's guide, he sees that it should be worth 10-15 cards right? So to him, it seems like a good deal. But with these changes, is that still accurate? Would it be fair? Is it a good thing that he would have to do this? I don't know. Maybe it is? But what if it's not?
With this change there is no way a rare will still be worth even 5 uncommons as they are worth so much less. Also it is terrible to need new player to trade away there rares at a rate most of us would be ashamed of charging a new player for cards that once were almost worthless.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: MerliniX on February 25, 2016, 01:19:04 AM

You guy are assuming they are plaing on giving new players a piles of free stuff when they start to play however that system sucks because as players slowly start to get less and less form that it feels terrible and a lot of people quit from that. Also the new system will suck for long time players either way because we got our new player bonuses and this makes it even harder for us to get packs pushing more people to just play draft.
At this rate, it might be better to save up to buy the draft decks instead of buying card packs.

A draft deck with 0 wins is currently priced at 30,000 IP, which goes down roughly 1000 IP per win.

If you were to buy your draft deck of 43 cards (40 card deck + 3 commanders) at 0 wins it would cost you 697.67 IP per card, compared to 600 IP per card for a Penta pack.

4 wins is basically the break even point, with cards being worth 604 IP per card at this point, and anything past 4 wins the individual cards become cheaper than in boosters.

NOTE: this is disregarding the fee for entrance, if you include this then the per card price becomes slightly cheaper at 7 wins, at 593 IP per card.

ALSO NOTE: Game losses and draws will also lower the overall price of buying the deck at the end of the run - neither of these is factored in here because I do not know the actual formula that these affect the end price by.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: What if Yellow on February 25, 2016, 01:19:53 AM
I here people talking a lot about the fabled "new player" and i am not him, i am the often forgotten "returning player" also a lot of talk of the "vet" and the "noob" i am the intermediate player, and i have a few things i would like to say in regards to the recent changes and proposed new ones:


Firstly the new log in rewards feel...well...unrewarding, half the reason i am now in the habit of playing this game every day, is how good the rewards where, i felt mad at my self when i missed a day, now when i log it the feeling ranges from  "oh neat" to "shrug" and if i missed the last day resting my self i would think "meh" not "i will never do that again" as i did with the old system, also the idea of giving players a pack of cards from the faction the played most was cool, but might have been better if it was "played that week" not "all time" but that's just me.

Secondly, i think the 5 card packs are a fine idea that may help with the feeling of a long "grind", and i think the class packs are also a good idea, but the removal of the other expansion sets is a REALLY bad one especially the removal of the base set, this set has ALOT of card that new players need "all the infinite units ( aspirant, invincible defenders, ect) and also all the Aletas" never mind that anything that makes martyr golem and calamity harder to get only makes it that much harder for players like me "intermittent" to bridge the gap with the veteran players. as for the removal of the other sets, this hurts players like me, returning, who may be missing cards mainly from the newest 2-3 sets, forcing me to buy only the new set, or to buy from them ALL when 90% of my collection will be from the first 4-5 expansions, isn't a good way to get returning players to stay.


Lastly, the rift runs, and this brings me back to the log in rewards as well, the 50gp we used to get, ment i got a free rift run every week, and often having had fun doing so, i would play another just for the heck of it, since the removal of the 50gp i have not played rift run once, so i think the other players might be on to something when they say you may want to give out free tokens, OR just give out free gp as a log in reward again, this also has the added benefit of giving people a taste of the things they can get with gp in hopes they might want more and give you money later on


In conclusion i have been enjoying myself in the last 2 months since i returned to this game, but the changes since i have returned seem to be in the wrong direction for keeping new/returning players.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 25, 2016, 01:23:19 AM
I here people talking a lot about the fabled "new player" and i am not him, i am the often forgotten "returning player" also a lot of talk of the "vet" and the "noob" i am the intermediate player, and i have a few things i would like to say in regards to the recent changes and proposed new ones:


Firstly the new log in rewards feel...well...unrewarding, half the reason i am now in the habit of playing this game every day, is how good the rewards where, i felt mad at my self when i missed a day, now when i log it the feeling ranges from  "oh neat" to "shrug" and if i missed the last day resting my self i would think "meh" not "i will never do that again" as i did with the old system, also the idea of giving players a pack of cards from the faction the played most was cool, but might have been better if it was "played that week" not "all time" but that's just me.

Secondly, i think the 5 card packs are a fine idea that may help with the feeling of a long "grind", and i think the class packs are also a good idea, but the removal of the other expansion sets is a REALLY bad one especially the removal of the base set, this set has ALOT of card that new players need "all the infinite units ( aspirant, invincible defenders, ect) and also all the Aletas" never mind that anything that makes martyr golem and calamity harder to get only makes it that much harder for players like me "intermittent" to bridge the gap with the veteran players. as for the removal of the other sets, this hurts players like me, returning, who may be missing cards mainly from the newest 2-3 sets, forcing me to buy only the new set, or to buy from them ALL when 90% of my collection will be from the first 4-5 expansions, isn't a good way to get returning players to stay.


Lastly, the rift runs, and this brings me back to the log in rewards as well, the 50gp we used to get, ment i got a free rift run every week, and often having had fun doing so, i would play another just for the heck of it, since the removal of the 50gp i have not played rift run once, so i think the other players might be on to something when they say you may want to give out free tokens, OR just give out free gp as a log in reward again, this also has the added benefit of giving people a taste of the things they can get with gp in hopes they might want more and give you money later on


In conclusion i have been enjoying myself in the last 2 months since i returned to this game, but the changes since i have returned seem to be in the wrong direction for keeping new/returning players.
The 5 card packs are going to feel horrible it is going to be like opening a blister with a rare in it that cost you 3000IP.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: What if Yellow on February 25, 2016, 01:28:48 AM
The 5 card packs are going to feel horrible it is going to be like opening a blister with a rare in it that cost you 3000IP.
[/quote]

i am not saying they are a good or bad idea, i will leave the size of packs up to the people who know about it, my concerns where more for the cards contained in the packs, although adding more cards or reducing the price seem easy to do if needed, rechanging the pack structure is alot harder, or at lest a lot less likely to be done, that's why i felt the need to make a account on the forum and make a post about it.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 25, 2016, 01:30:12 AM
In regards to what merlin is talking about comparing buying packs to buying decks. Theres also the added benefit of getting to soft choose the cards you purchase if you spend your IP on rift decks. Even if you brought every deck you drafted at 0 wins youd get a comparable amount of cards AND it would be as though for every booster you opened instead you used your xray eyes to look at 4 boosters and pick the one you like best.

BUUUUT its even better. You dont have to buy the draft deck. You can buy only the draft decks that have the faction or cards that you want. Certainly better than buying faction boosters. Just draft a 3 purity flame dawn and buy it dont bother buying flame dawn faction boosters at 3 times the price.

And thats if you get no wins, if you get even a humble amount of wins you will get a nice little discount.

Only down side is that you arent saving your IP for pre-order plats, but new players arent concerned with that, when this new system goes in I would absolutely advise new players to get their cards from rift runs.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 25, 2016, 01:38:15 AM
In regards to what merlin is talking about comparing buying packs to buying decks. Theres also the added benefit of getting to soft choose the cards you purchase if you spend your IP on rift decks. Even if you brought every deck you drafted at 0 wins youd get a comparable amount of cards AND it would be as though for every booster you opened instead you used your xray eyes to look at 4 boosters and pick the one you like best.

BUUUUT its even better. You dont have to buy the draft deck. You can buy only the draft decks that have the faction or cards that you want. Certainly better than buying faction boosters. Just draft a 3 purity flame dawn and buy it dont bother buying flame dawn faction boosters at 3 times the price.

And thats if you get no wins, if you get even a humble amount of wins you will get a nice little discount.

Only down side is that you arent saving your IP for pre-order plats, but new players arent concerned with that, when this new system goes in I would absolutely advise new players to get their cards from rift runs.
The sad thing is rifts did not get any better packs just got a lot worse.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 25, 2016, 03:40:14 AM
Since getting 'free RR tokens' has been mentioned... why not make that the 5th day login reward? As What If Yellow mentioned, the 50 LP we used to get as a daily reward meant a free RR each week. Why not make the 5th reward a token that allows you to pay the entry fee for a Rift Run? You can even save them in case you don't particularly feel like drafting that day. It will encourage people to log in till day 5 for sure, and it would mean more people playing that format in general.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 25, 2016, 05:28:11 AM
Since getting 'free RR tokens' has been mentioned... why not make that the 5th day login reward? As What If Yellow mentioned, the 50 LP we used to get as a daily reward meant a free RR each week. Why not make the 5th reward a token that allows you to pay the entry fee for a Rift Run? You can even save them in case you don't particularly feel like drafting that day. It will encourage people to log in till day 5 for sure, and it would mean more people playing that format in general.

Eh, It wouldn't encourage me to log in. It doesn't seem like, if the prizes are getting progressively better then a RR token isn't really 5th log in material. Maybe 3rd or possibly 4th... But anyway I think the log ins should be extended to 6 or 7. and then the RR Token would fit better at 4th possibly 5th.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 25, 2016, 06:52:58 AM
Proposals:

1. Daily Logins Rewards
Day 1: Soulbound Common
Day 2: Soulbound Uncommon
Day 3: Rift Run Token
Day 4: Soulbound Penta Pack
Day 5: Soulbound Penta Faction Pack (This time you can select your Faction Pack)

Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on February 25, 2016, 06:55:57 AM
Proposals:

1. Daily Logins Rewards
Day 1: Soulbound Common/Uncommon
Day 2: Soulbound Common/Uncommon
Day 3: Rift Run Token
Day 4: Soulbound Penta Pack
Day 5: Soulbound Penta Faction Pack (This time you can select your Faction Pack)




Yeah, definitely no issue with giving out thousands of IP worth of stuff for free every day practically. No issues at all.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 25, 2016, 07:08:39 AM
Proposals:

1. Daily Logins Rewards

Day 1: Common / Uncommon (unsoulbound of course >_>)

Day 2: +50% IP Boost for first Game

Day 3: 10 LP

Day 4: RR Token

Day 5: Random Art in Infinity Wars Art Gallery

Day 6: 5 Hour 50% IP Boost

Day 7: 1/10 Legendary Card Piece. (Random Legendary is chosen on the first 7th day, and every time they make it to 7 days they get another piece. when they get 10 they'll unlock a legendary card. Doesn't seem so bad that every 10 weeks possibly you get a single legendary card does it?)

Adjustments can be made proper.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Benionin on February 25, 2016, 07:12:05 AM
I would actually support tossing the proposed rift run tokens later on in the distribution rather than halfway.

I mean, getting into a rift run for free is actually worth more than a penta pack in my opinion. Certainly more than 2500 ip.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 25, 2016, 07:12:19 AM
The Rift Run Rework Rewards is estimated to be worth about 1.2 Million IP Weekly. Don't ask me how and just do the math yourself.  ;)

Now for the cost of my Proposal of Login Rewards.

Day 1 & 2 - Worthless? We have that now?
Day 3 - Assuming 1000 people login per day and Rift Runs are worth 2500IP.
That is 2.5 million IP every 3 days.
Day 4 - Assuming 1000 people login per day and Penta Packs are worth 3000IP.
That is 3.0 million IP every 4 days.
Day 5 - That is approximately 9.0 million IP every 5 days.

LM/Yodo1 would actually be giving out approximately 15 million IP every 5 days assuming 1000 people login every day for 5 days. Rift Run Tokens tied to Login Rewards encourages people to login for at least 3 days straight, since now it would be theoretically worth 2500IP, which is very generous, with the exception that they cannot redeem it for cash value. The Penta Packs would be Soulbound so that no one could abuse it, but yes it should be this "generous" in order to help new players.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 25, 2016, 07:13:40 AM
I would actually support tossing the proposed rift run tokens later on in the distribution rather than halfway.

I mean, getting into a rift run for free is actually worth more than a penta pack in my opinion. Certainly more than 2500 ip.

Free Rift run is 2500IP, and Penta Pack is worth 3000IP. Where's your proof?

Edit: You actually make a good point if the Penta Packs are Soulbound.  ;D
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: putITin on February 25, 2016, 10:22:27 AM
What will happen to current runs when the patch hits? They were purchased with the old amount - do they get the new rewards?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Frost_Maggot on February 25, 2016, 08:21:27 PM
Hey all first post so nice to meet you officially.

My two cents as a new player for what it is worth.

Penta packs - I think this is a great idea, people seem unhappy about commons and uncommons becoming rare but I think this is a good thing in a tcg. Also everyone must remember uncommons and commons will be obtained through the daily login system.

Rift run - I happy with the reward restructure as still learning so getting a rare on 5 wins is achievable.
That being said I am still learning and my wins range from something like 7 to 0. I will put this bluntly, I will stop playing rift all together if the price is 2500. Will i pay 2500 and risk getting nothing or will I pay 3000 and get a rare+, an uncommon and 3 commons, the choice is obvious here.

I have one possible solution that no one has mentioned. How about having 2 entry fee's for rift runs, the 2500 entry is as stated in the OP. The second entry would be something like 1250 and the only difference would be that all rewards are soulbound. You would still play a random opponent regardless of entry fee.

What you guys wreckon?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 25, 2016, 08:44:25 PM
Too much coding work nawww.

Revised Proposals:

1. Daily Logins Rewards
Day 1: Soulbound Common
Day 2: Soulbound Uncommon
Day 3: Soulbound Penta Pack
Day 4: Free Rift Run Token
Day 5: Soulbound Penta Faction Pack (This time you can select your Faction Pack or not)  :P

Done. Gimme billion dollars now.  ;)

Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Teremus on February 25, 2016, 08:56:24 PM
Quote
Done. Gimme billion dollars now.  ;)

Every time I see this reference I chuckle to myself. I love you Ori.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 25, 2016, 10:02:19 PM
I have one possible solution that no one has mentioned. How about having 2 entry fee's for rift runs, the 2500 entry is as stated in the OP. The second entry would be something like 1250 and the only difference would be that all rewards are soulbound. You would still play a random opponent regardless of entry fee.

A while back I suggested having several options to allow players to raise the stakes. For example
Start Rift Run 0 IP: You get no prizes at all just the IP for playing games, but it allows new players to practice and allows people who just like the format to enjoy it.
Start Rift Run 1000 IP: (Or 2500 IP, whatever the regular amount is) and get regular prize structure.
Start Rift Run 5000 or 10000 IP: A higher stakes Rift Run where you can get massive prizes if you do well but also costs a lot to buy in.

All 3 of the buy ins would be playing in the same queue and there would be no difference in picking cards and playing only difference would be the prizes at the end depending on what you paid at the start.
There is one down side to this though, the game is buggy and lots of people would be mad when they lose their high stakes rift run to glitches and bugs and frozen games.
The other thing would be that there would have to be some limit on the no stakes rift runs so people didn't 'reroll' their commanders. So perhaps only allowed to start one of those a day or something.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Interesting_Socks on February 25, 2016, 11:36:14 PM
I think I the best way to give out free rift runs has already been mentioned. Give out rift run tokens as part of the daily log in rewards. 1 every 5 days seems fine to me.

High stakes and low stakes sounds cool though.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Qfasa on February 26, 2016, 02:33:46 AM
A while back I suggested having several options to allow players to raise the stakes. For example
Start Rift Run 0 IP: You get no prizes at all just the IP for playing games, but it allows new players to practice and allows people who just like the format to enjoy it.
Start Rift Run 1000 IP: (Or 2500 IP, whatever the regular amount is) and get regular prize structure.
Start Rift Run 5000 or 10000 IP: A higher stakes Rift Run where you can get massive prizes if you do well but also costs a lot to buy in.

All 3 of the buy ins would be playing in the same queue and there would be no difference in picking cards and playing only difference would be the prizes at the end depending on what you paid at the start.
There is one down side to this though, the game is buggy and lots of people would be mad when they lose their high stakes rift run to glitches and bugs and frozen games.
The other thing would be that there would have to be some limit on the no stakes rift runs so people didn't 'reroll' their commanders. So perhaps only allowed to start one of those a day or something.

9 times out of 10 Adorabear has great ideas about rewards, yet I haven't seen any of them implemented. Not directly, and not even in a way similar to what he suggests. This makes me sad.


What else makes me sad is that zero attention given to the LP price of the drafts. No one cares how much it might cost in real money but sooo many players are angry that they should farm more even although the prizes for the new price will be significantly better. You don't like grind? There is simple alternative, it costs you $0.85. Nope. I'm F2P player and I will rather stop playing drafts than give devs any money.


And before I will be accused in elitism again... With the current ratio USD to Russian ruble my income has lost more than twice its value in USD for the last few months, and it never was big in the first place. I'm borderline broke right now. With the upcoming transition from AUD to USD in-game prices for me will be even higher. Still, even I think that $1 is completely affordable price in case if I don't want to grind for another draft. If you can afford payments for you internet connection to be in this game, how you can't afford less than $1 for a draft? This is rhetorical question btw, I have no intention to derail another topic. Just wanted to express my opinion.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Teremus on February 26, 2016, 02:59:22 AM
The "Select your pay" gamble style of Rift Run definitely received a lot of positive feedback.

I think it's a neat idea, as Drafting is gambling in a sense anyways.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 26, 2016, 04:02:11 AM
I really like the idea of gambling in the Rift. My only concern is that better players will farm it hard, at least in the beginning. And then you'd have people playing for cheap/free and those betting a lot and winning. I don't know if this would actually happen, just a devil's advocate. I'm definitely for that gambler's feel.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: IguanaMan on February 26, 2016, 05:37:56 AM
Rift runs should be capped around 30ish wins.  Allowing lucky decks to run up 60+ wins (60 losses for other ppl) is not good.  There's a reason other card games have these limits.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ThorFolklore on February 26, 2016, 08:53:41 AM
Rift runs should be capped around 30ish wins.  Allowing lucky decks to run up 60+ wins (60 losses for other ppl) is not good.  There's a reason other card games have these limits.

I respectfully disagree. :) I dislike the limits that other card games have on draft wins. If you are fortunate and/or skillful enough to draft a super amazing deck, you should be allowed to pilot it for as long as you possibly can. This gives the pilot an incredible feeling of accomplishment. In fact, decks that surpass a certain threshold of wins should be given a permanent place in a Hall of Fame gallery, accessible for viewing by other players at any time. The decks deserve to be immortalised for the rest of IW's lifespan.

My personal best rift running streak is "only" 33 or 34 wins using 2 GI/1 CoV, so nothing compared to the top rift runners. However, I will never forget that accomplished feeling for as long as I continue drafting.  ;D
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Oeilduciel on February 26, 2016, 09:12:57 AM
I never cared about the rift run, too expensive as i lost near all the games and so, no profit for me. The fact that the entry price is increasing will not change my mind even if you have lowered the barrier.

I'm more concernend about the 5 cards per pack. When there was the pre-orders for Order and Oppression i bought 100 booster and it allowed me via trading to have all the cards.
With just 5 card except if i have a good luck i don't really know how i will be able to complete the next set even with 100 packs.

I also bought the Star trek set to have a complete deck, you said that you will sold them in a limited time but will you do a phase two? Even if it was just for fun it would be a waste to have acquired the licence and not exploit it.

By the way, any news about the next set ?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: IguanaMan on February 26, 2016, 10:42:50 AM
If you are fortunate and/or skillful enough to draft a super amazing deck, you should be allowed to pilot it for as long as you possibly can. This gives the pilot an incredible feeling of accomplishment.
Sure but that also meant 33 other people had a puffyty time facing your OP deck (I'm talking about limiting the decks that go above 30 win remember).  The reason for the limit is to let people have their fun with these lucky decks but not to let them get out of hand ruining everyone else's day.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 26, 2016, 01:15:45 PM
If you are fortunate and/or skillful enough to draft a super amazing deck, you should be allowed to pilot it for as long as you possibly can. This gives the pilot an incredible feeling of accomplishment.
Sure but that also meant 33 other people had a puffyty time facing your OP deck (I'm talking about limiting the decks that go above 30 win remember).  The reason for the limit is to let people have their fun with these lucky decks but not to let them get out of hand ruining everyone else's day.

commie.

no one is entitled to an easy rift run, if someone is in their crushing it than so be it: they are a monster to be slain. I don't want arbitrary limits on rifts so people don't get salty -- this is supposed to be a big kids game.

If something must be done because too many people are crying about hurt feelings then incentivize beating the top decks in the rift. The longer a deck is in the rift, the higher its bounty. Each player that beats said deck gets a bounty chip and once that deck crashes out those 3 players are paid a bounty based on how deep that deck went into the rift.

*note: I suck a rift and have rarely made it to 10 wins -- maybe twice. But I don't want handouts to make me feel like I'm better than I am. also "commie" is a joke and should be taken as such.*
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Hiding on February 26, 2016, 02:38:40 PM
I didnt read through all the thread but i agree with changing practice on rift runs to a free mode with no prizes. Matching them with paying people could be an interesting idea because their wins are a net loss to cards gained by the playerbase which is good and limits premium giveouts, however their losses could result in more prizes for paying rift runners and perhaps down the line, making more rift smurfs to farm wins or something.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: TheRealTuna on February 26, 2016, 03:08:54 PM
I have one possible solution that no one has mentioned. How about having 2 entry fee's for rift runs, the 2500 entry is as stated in the OP. The second entry would be something like 1250 and the only difference would be that all rewards are soulbound. You would still play a random opponent regardless of entry fee.

A while back I suggested having several options to allow players to raise the stakes. For example
Start Rift Run 0 IP: You get no prizes at all just the IP for playing games, but it allows new players to practice and allows people who just like the format to enjoy it.
Start Rift Run 1000 IP: (Or 2500 IP, whatever the regular amount is) and get regular prize structure.
Start Rift Run 5000 or 10000 IP: A higher stakes Rift Run where you can get massive prizes if you do well but also costs a lot to buy in.

All 3 of the buy ins would be playing in the same queue and there would be no difference in picking cards and playing only difference would be the prizes at the end depending on what you paid at the start.
There is one down side to this though, the game is buggy and lots of people would be mad when they lose their high stakes rift run to glitches and bugs and frozen games.
The other thing would be that there would have to be some limit on the no stakes rift runs so people didn't 'reroll' their commanders. So perhaps only allowed to start one of those a day or something.

Was about to suggest a system like this one, and then I saw Adora already wrote it all  ;D

Would definitely be cool to have different buy-in options.

I would definitely throw down 10k IP as a rift buy-in for the chance of getting higher premium rewards, for example.

Reward plan for these higher buy-ins would have to be extremely well thought-out and tested, however, so that the market isn't too significantly impacted (I have already expressed how skeptical I am about the newly proposed rift reward system in relation to its effect on the market).
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Heyheuhei on February 26, 2016, 03:13:39 PM
My personal concerns:
1) 2500 IP is way too much for new players, somehow need to give them advantage(but not smurfs). Free soulband packs for participating in it?
2) I like idea to get more higher rarity cards, but i dont like penta pack name, i prefer six pack(Always wanted to have it, but too lazy go to gym). Altough my real concern is faction and core pack prices difference(In LP). Way too much. And of course, no Factionless pack? Its hurts as hell, who didnt have Martyrs, Calamities
Other things i like it. And what i like very much is generous Gold/foil rewards in rift. Now premium market is insane. For gold uncommon(not even core) some people want 2 Legendaries. It hurts as hell me :(.
 Btw, sorry for my bad english :(
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Heaven-Canceler on February 26, 2016, 03:20:54 PM
Well, I have read a lot in here and I agree with a lot of people here that the Situation has to be thought out by the Devs more instead of just doing these changes.

Rift Run stuff

Better Rift Run rewards are cool, but this doesn't lead to People of all skill Levels being more interested. As others have mentioned, there are Players who well.... lose 0-3 multiple times. I myself only managed to get to 8 once and never got a Rare, leading to me giving up on the concept of Rift Runs and only using them when I had leftover LP after buying some in preorders.

I would suggest the following. Change the  Rift Run test mode into a free Rift Run mode for People to Play without rewards other than IP. This gives us a way to "Train" Rift Running in a good manner since the AI is horrible anyway. You get Players to lower the waiting time for the next game.

Also maybe the occasional Rift Run token as others suggested would be good. Maybe you could get a free Rift Run for X amounts of wins in the Free Format of Rift Runs? That would actually reward skill....

And yeah, the whole ruining the value of Gold/Foil Cards is really sad. People worked hard to get them, if you Change the ease to get them, at least make all older Golds/Foils into Legacy Versions to differentiate them from the now easier to get ones.

Either that or consider some other way to Balance out things. I am not a collector, but I understand how frustrating it must be to have countless months or even years of work and Money become less valuable as the game gets a steady and guaranteed flow of Golds, Foils and Gold-Foils.

Pack Size Changes

Currently you get 15 Cards for 5.250 IP or 300 LP, ignoring the higher chances for Rare+ cards, this is an increase of 70% in pricing for IP and 50% for LP while giving less of an "Wow" effect. (I used Excel for calculation, if I am wrong, someone please correct me.)

Honestly, 5 Cards seem to Little... if you want to go lower than 15, go down to 10 or something. It is a reasonable even number and still lets People have a good "Wow" effect.

Although the higher Chance to get a Rare Card is nice, this will lead to Rare Cards becoming less searched after and commons/uncommons becoming harder to get. What is the Uncommon/Common Ratio in the Penta Packs anyway? 3 Commons, 1 Uncommon, 1 Rare+? Then wouldn't Rares be just a bit precious than Uncommons? Isn't there something wrong with that? It was already hard to get some of the better uncommons at times, it will be a serious pain for Newcomers to do something like get a full set of Dropbears.

This isn't even mentioning that you will no longer have Set Specific packs, meaning RNG will be much more of a pain in card drawing, even if you fork out Money for faction Packs which I find very frustrating as being necessary. Oh, and Unlimited Cards will be close to impossible to get in the necessary amounts as others mentioned. Also, nothing at all helps if I am searching for a specific Non-Faction Card, much less an Unlimited Faction-Neutral one! How to get the neutral Swarmers? Or Cowmando, or that Fusion Card, or any of the many others? Heh, good luck I guess......

Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: IguanaMan on February 26, 2016, 04:23:28 PM
I don't understand why people are hell bent on making it so hard for people to build a gold/foil collection. 

Let plats, plat-foil, gold-foil be the rare stuff and the gold/foil be obtainable without spending hundreds/thousands of dollars outside the in game market.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 26, 2016, 04:32:00 PM
Rewards in RIFT RUNS Like in everything else in the game, should IMPROVE based on level. Everyone having access to everything 100% of the time makes leveling up unnecessary.

Things that should improve with Level. (Level milestones being 10 - 20 - 30)

Rift Runs

With an implementation of 3 options for Rift Runs (0 cost down no prizes / 2500 cost down / Gambling) You can make it so newer players are only able to play 0 cost Rift Runs until they reach a higher level. Rift Runs opening for them at 10, then improving for them at 20+

This solves a lot of issues for the excess of golds and all other concerns that have been discussed.

Sign in Rewards

The old system was very generous but everyone feels the sting after you've taken everything away and replaced them with soulbound. New players need soulbound cards, older players don't. So New cards for new players should be given until they reach a certain level. If Sign in Rewards are improved based on level then that addresses a lot of concerns that have been discussed and gives you a way to be more creative for awarding loyal players.

Tournaments

Pauper and RNG tournaments can be open to everyone. But to save time and provide a better layout IB tournaments and Double Eliminations can be offered only to level 30 players. This is just a thought but if you build a system around Drew's Tourney's then this can be a possible option. Easy enough to program if you get creative. And more improvements based on level, I feel, is a good thing.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Illusive_Mike on February 26, 2016, 04:34:43 PM
I just had this thought, and I want a second opinion.

A free, unlimited-rate-of-access Rift Run option (like the previously mentioned Practice/No Rewards runs) creates a rather big problem. A player who really likes the format (and doesn't care much for Constructed) may lose incentive to give money to the game. Why would they want/need to? Drafting is free, so you can get a deck to play with at any time, you just change it if you lose for a bit, but that's just more of the fun. Rewards from Rift Runs, other than currency to buy in again, don't matter in the Rift Runs themselves, so why would this hypothetical player care about not getting them?
Edit: or lock this option down with level, as the comment came while I was typing this.
Edit 2: I am not including competitive players here. Top-of-rankings does have its draw. I'm talking about the players without such aspirations, who would be a majority if the format is popular and the community is big enough.

Further concerns:

In the "variable entry, one pool" option there is also the problem of inflation. Instead of just redistributing value from losers to winners through a uniform system of entry fees and rewards, RRs would probably start generating (a lot of) value, as more experienced/better players would generally go in for higher stakes and get more wins.

And someone noted that RR token stuff is smurfable due to non-bound/currency rewards. Which I didn't even think about, because I don't use exploits and don't look for them. Puffy. I guess it still takes some skill to leverage that so it's more profitable than just playing Constructed, but it is a hole all the same. And I'd rather not play one format than have holes in the economy.

Also, to address the LP buy-in option: yes, it is being increased disproportionately less. But this is the situation of "fun of playing this format when I like the others too" vs "literally gambling, just in a special format and with only-in-game payout". Desire to avoid gambling wins out, and I just use my money to buy some boosters.

Conclusion on Rift free play options: all options seem to have serious problems, and I don't expect to see them implemented. Which is fair. So I'm likely staying out. No hard feelings.


Thoughts on Penta Packs: need math. Seriously, "better chances" aren't cutting it for me. I want to crunch some numbers, here. Right now, I don't consider my collection to have holes that need filling. I have as many (and more) C/UCs as I need. Thus, I like better chances at higher tier stuff (if they really are better, we have no numbers). But how that will change with new sets, and how this stuff will affect new players who really need some UCs, I have no data to guess.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 26, 2016, 04:53:12 PM
I like the idea of replacing the Train feature of Rift Runs for a 0-cost entry fee one, that allows players to test their ability without getting prizes.

Here's the problem though: if you are playing against people who did pay an entry fee, as a free runner you can basically draft and abandon the deck until you find THE draft to play with, so paying runners end up playing against decks that are ideal, and they are risking their entry fee, whereas the free runners is risking... what? Nothing really.

As I said, I like the idea of replacing the draft Train feature, which is kind of pointless cause you end up playing against the AI and it sucks at that, but I don't like free runnera playing against paying ones cause the latter have everything to lose. If free runners could be matched against other free runners, then that would be better, and once they feel confident enough in their drafting skills they could jump into the 'major leagues' and pay an entry fee.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on February 26, 2016, 04:55:46 PM
As for Penta Pack... I'd go with 8-card packs (call them whatever you feel sounds better). 15 cards per booster was admittedly too much, but 5 cards per pack is too low. 10 would still be too generous, and I think 8 would be the sweet spot.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 26, 2016, 05:24:01 PM
Kevkas thats actually a great idea. I support your idea of a Octa Pack.  ;)

4 Commons
3 Uncommons
1 Rare+

Same increased drop rates and the chances of getting 3+ Rares or something, but the packs should cost 4500 IP.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 26, 2016, 05:25:14 PM
I like the idea of replacing the Train feature of Rift Runs for a 0-cost entry fee one, that allows players to test their ability without getting prizes.

Here's the problem though: if you are playing against people who did pay an entry fee, as a free runner you can basically draft and abandon the deck until you find THE draft to play with, so paying runners end up playing against decks that are ideal, and they are risking their entry fee, whereas the free runners is risking... what? Nothing really.

As I said, I like the idea of replacing the draft Train feature, which is kind of pointless cause you end up playing against the AI and it sucks at that, but I don't like free runnera playing against paying ones cause the latter have everything to lose. If free runners could be matched against other free runners, then that would be better, and once they feel confident enough in their drafting skills they could jump into the 'major leagues' and pay an entry fee.

Simple solution free rift runs can't be abandoned
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Symphony on February 26, 2016, 05:38:06 PM
You guys also have to realise that the second you merge paying and non-paying queues, you're in for some very serious wintrading issue if it's not properly planned. Unless you severely limit the amount of non-paying rifts (and even then), what's stopping someone from spamming (or creating multiple accounts) runs and just conceding to everyone he finds?

I think there should never be merging queues where a 0 cost option is included. Ever.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 26, 2016, 05:42:56 PM
Kevkas thats actually a great idea. I support your idea of a Octa Pack.  ;)

4 Commons
3 Uncommons
1 Rare+

Same increased drop rates and the chances of getting 3+ Rares or something, but the packs should cost 4500 IP.

Why even have the Uncommon Class at that point?

Also you are getting over 50% less rares than in the Penta-Pack design -- which is one of the reasons for switching to 3 rares per 15 cards.

Until the Dev's clarify the rarity tiers, I'm assuming they are moving to the tried and true Magic rarity of 11/3/1. Where commons and uncommons are rolled into one teir, rares drop every pack, Epics drop every 3 packs (on average), Legendaries drop every 24 packs (on average).

I like it because it has proven to work. And I don't mind penta-packs because they make card buying bite sized. What I don't like is you get victimized by RNG and go a lot of packs without Epics and an insane number of packs without Legendary.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 26, 2016, 05:51:58 PM
Infinity Wars has always had 5 tiers. If anything it seems like they are rolling Uncommons and Rares into a single tier. Statistically speaking if the drop rates are 3:1:1. But if they are 2:2:1 then yes, you are correct they are rolling Commons and Uncommons together. If they are going with 2:2:1, I suggest they remove the Uncommon tier, but I know they won't do that because too much coding work. It would get confusing for people trading 1 Uncommon for 2 Commons when their drop rates are exactly the same.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Heaven-Canceler on February 26, 2016, 07:16:58 PM
I just had this thought, and I want a second opinion.

A free, unlimited-rate-of-access Rift Run option (like the previously mentioned Practice/No Rewards runs) creates a rather big problem. A player who really likes the format (and doesn't care much for Constructed) may lose incentive to give money to the game. Why would they want/need to? Drafting is free, so you can get a deck to play with at any time, you just change it if you lose for a bit, but that's just more of the fun. Rewards from Rift Runs, other than currency to buy in again, don't matter in the Rift Runs themselves, so why would this hypothetical player care about not getting them?
Edit: or lock this option down with level, as the comment came while I was typing this.
Edit 2: I am not including competitive players here. Top-of-rankings does have its draw. I'm talking about the players without such aspirations, who would be a majority if the format is popular and the community is big enough.

There are (almost) always ways to abuse everything, the question is always how you make it not worth the time/effort. In the first place, if a Player was like that, I doubt they would decide to pay Money to get into Rift Runs, they would probably just fight against bots or something to get the IP or just abandon the game entirely. Hell, there are a lot of players who never pay a Cent and are into the competitive Scene and simply grind IP. It isn't like free Rift Runs would Change People suddenly. It is their choice to do that. And it is the job of Lightmare to make the people want to give them money, not make them think it is the only way for them to have fun.

But as someone suggested, just make it impossible for free Players to Abandon Rift Runs. If they drop the game, it doesn't Count as a win for the other Player. It would be like they didn't Play a game and they just continue on with the next one. That way abandoning the game would not be worth it and just a waste of time.

Additionally, about smurfing RR-Tokens for rewards, just make all rewards gained in a playthrough with a RR-Token soulbound too.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: gavran on February 26, 2016, 07:37:00 PM
This increase in IP to start a rift run cost without an increase in IP rewards from Rift Runs contains the possibility to make it so I can longer play exclusively Rift Runs. I would probably quit if I were forced to play constructed or purchase IP in order to draft. There's room for tweaking here, I probably average ~8 wins and make a fairly reasonable IP profit that let's me buy a deck basically whenever it has cards I determine I really want regardless of performance with that deck (mind, the ability to do this is basically the only thing that will ever lead me to playing constructed.)

Just something to think about.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Illusive_Mike on February 26, 2016, 07:49:49 PM
There are (almost) always ways to abuse everything, the question is always how you make it not worth the time/effort. In the first place, if a Player was like that, I doubt they would decide to pay Money to get into Rift Runs, they would probably just fight against bots or something to get the IP or just abandon the game entirely. Hell, there are a lot of players who never pay a Cent and are into the competitive Scene and simply grind IP. It isn't like free Rift Runs would Change People suddenly. It is their choice to do that. And it is the job of Lightmare to make the people want to give them money, not make them think it is the only way for them to have fun.

The question was rather about people losing interest in Constructed, since it would be very easy to play in Drafts where cards are always fresh, and thus Constructed would make less money (LP buy-ins were not even a consideration for me with this particular question). And the "if you lose for a bit" was referring to the "lose 3 times the normal way, check deck in", no exploits here.

But overall I do see your point. Constructed would stand on its own merits, and the money would come. Thanks for the reassurance.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Brueson on February 26, 2016, 08:05:01 PM
What about a monthly subscription for free unlimited rift runs with no rewards, except maybe the high rank infinity borders? That way I don't have to spend lots of money to "try" for cards I don't care about, but I am still giving money directly to IW. Then who cares if I intentionally tank games, IW still already has their money. Just put the price point in a range that is cheaper then X number of rift runs a month, but not going to break my limited bank. Say less than 15 dollars a month based on MMO subscription model. A monthly pass for about 5 to 10 dollars might be good.

Or instead of monthly charge, say for 5 dollars, I get 10 no reward rift runs or something.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: TheCable on February 27, 2016, 02:05:13 PM
It's rather insane how much have rewards increased recently.

I remember Teremus always giving the same BS answer about how "IW gives away similar amount of stuff for free as competitors, it only feels more grindy, you see!", but then the rewards got multiplied at least tenfold.

For comparison, the previous log-in reward system gave you 1 card (which was a literally useless common/uncommon like 90% of the time). Now it gives you 3 packs every 5 days. The IP gain was also DOUBLED. And now we also got massively upgraded Rift Run rewards.

My point? This is awesome, it's just a quite sad to think that the opportunity to grow the playerbase was missed since these changes weren't there when "gold" launch happened (and most people who tried the game quit and will never return).
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Qfasa on February 27, 2016, 03:06:10 PM
It's rather insane how much have rewards increased recently.

I remember Teremus always giving the same BS answer about how "IW gives away similar amount of stuff for free as competitors, it only feels more grindy, you see!", but then the rewards got multiplied at least tenfold.

For comparison, the previous log-in reward system gave you 1 card (which was a literally useless common/uncommon like 90% of the time). Now it gives you 3 packs every 5 days. The IP gain was also DOUBLED. And now we also got massively upgraded Rift Run rewards.
And where this previous generosity put the game and its devs? To the edge of bankruptcy. So yeah, definitely BS. GIVE US MOAR!
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: SnowChaser on February 27, 2016, 04:32:40 PM
And where this previous generosity put the game and its devs? To the edge of bankruptcy. So yeah, definitely BS. GIVE US MOAR!

Your interpolation is too linear. Real situation is much more complex and nonlinear, I think. I believe, there are solutions, at which the game could be more generous and more profitable at the same time.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 27, 2016, 09:10:35 PM
You guys also have to realise that the second you merge paying and non-paying queues, you're in for some very serious wintrading issue if it's not properly planned. Unless you severely limit the amount of non-paying rifts (and even then), what's stopping someone from spamming (or creating multiple accounts) runs and just conceding to everyone he finds?

I think there should never be merging queues where a 0 cost option is included. Ever.

Are you talking about letting the other player win in exchange for a rare or epic that sort of thing?

Hypothetically I think thats a fair point but in practice I think it wouldn't be because people already do that sometimes now. I don't think it would be profitable to make a spare account specifically for it. As well as wouldn't the same go for ranked queue?

The only way to stop win trading would be to have the prizes not exceed the entry fee but thats not going to happen. It will always happen opportunistically but I don't think it can be abused/farmed. Worth thinking about though I think, so very good point.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Symphony on February 27, 2016, 10:06:27 PM
Are you talking about letting the other player win in exchange for a rare or epic that sort of thing?

Hypothetically I think thats a fair point but in practice I think it wouldn't be because people already do that sometimes now. I don't think it would be profitable to make a spare account specifically for it. As well as wouldn't the same go for ranked queue?

The only way to stop win trading would be to have the prizes not exceed the entry fee but thats not going to happen. It will always happen opportunistically but I don't think it can be abused/farmed. Worth thinking about though I think, so very good point.

What bothers me isn't only the case of selling wins, but if you don't limit the amount of free/rewardless runs a player can get, I can see people randomly conceding to bump other runs as a serious problem. Even if it's just like you suggested a few pages ago to let them have like, 1 run a day so they don't rerun commanders, what's stopping them from just conceding all 3 matches on these runs?
I don't know how much of a problem you'd think this 'small boost' would be, but it might just escalate to some serious bullpuffyting given the right minds (abusing low poll times for selfboosting, for exemple), I think.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 28, 2016, 12:37:02 AM
Theres nothing stopping them conceding their runs, but I don't think theres anything that benefits them to do so either. Im just thinking from my perspective I could either spend all day soliciting players for a rare in exchange for a concede OR I could just play a couple games and get enough IP for a booster or a real run. I think it would be much more profitable to just play games and get IP. In practice fiddling around with alt accounts and drafting decks (which by the way have to be good enough that they are a threat otherwise they have nothing to bargain with), and finding people who are willing to engage them.
The thing is really the only people willing to buy wins in this way is if they are on a good run and losing the game OR if they are 1 win away from the next prize tier. Thats not most people most of the time so you can only take advantage of that opportunistically not routinely.

So I think you are correct in theory but not in practice. But im just theorizing about the practical side too so I could be wrong :P
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 28, 2016, 03:20:25 AM
Symphony is right. Rift Runs should never have an option to be free. It could cost HALF the amount of IP as a real run, and then as a result the rewards could be Soulbound.  ;D
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 28, 2016, 03:51:11 AM
Symphony is right. Rift Runs should never have an option to be free. It could cost HALF the amount of IP as a real run, and then as a result the rewards could be Soulbound.  ;D

That would be a good compromise
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Drarz on February 28, 2016, 05:40:11 AM
Go 30 win, get great premiums. all soul bound. HA. that would suck so bad
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 28, 2016, 05:44:27 AM
problem 1: rift runs are to cheap.
problem 2: rift rewards are underwhelming.
problem 3: people who don't play rifts cause they don't have enough incentive.

solution increase rift entry fee and increase rewards.
why is this even a discussion?

how is "i am not playing rifts atm for 1k cost but i might play rifts if it was free" is a valid argument lol
if you are not playing rifts atm cause 'reasons' why do you even care about the entry fee?
if you like the format and are looking for charity, there is enough ftp content in this game, don't forget that this game is a business.

decks reaching a lot of wins are a pain in the ass? what about the time invested in these decks and skill?
how about we only let es play rifts once a week cause he is on top of the leader board and he is a pain in the ass. logic...
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: IguanaMan on February 28, 2016, 07:06:15 AM
why is this even a discussion?
Because not everyone agrees with those points.  I don't think rift runs are too cheap now that the 100% ip booster is gone.  Sure they can increase rewards + entry price but as others have stated, that only benefits people who are good at rift running.

Consider Hearthstone, costs 1.5x the price of a 5 card pack to enter but you are guaranteed a pack.  So, effectively costs 0.5x the cost of a pack. And at 3 wins you break even. 

And HS has one of the more stingy models, look at Duelyst or Spellweaver, where you can easily earn a couple of packs per day by playing a few hrs.  The main factor being the lack of weekly quests, atm all we have is the 30ish games per pack grind.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 28, 2016, 07:20:24 AM
So you are saying Rift Runs should be 4500 IP (1.5x price of Penta Pack). They should reward you a Penta Pack no matter what. So technically it would be 1500 IP entry fee if they do not reward you a Penta Pack on a 4500 IP Rift Run. Breaking even at 3 wins would technically mean that every win equates to 500 IP Gain (or instead of 1000 IP Reduction cost of deck?). So if Lightmare gets rid of reducing the price of the Drafted Deck, they should instead reward players 500 IP per win to be exactly like Hearthstone?  ;D

29 Wins (Free Deck) = 14500 IP

If you win 29 games in Normals you get 29*150/225 = 4350 IP/6525 IP

14500 - 4350/6525 = 10150 IP/7975 IP (Profit)


I haven't played Hearthstone in a long time, so I'm unclear what else they offer in Arena rewards.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: IguanaMan on February 28, 2016, 09:37:11 AM
...
Yes, you get more for winning in rifts than ranked/unranked... that's pretty much the system in most CCGs.  Because you pay to enter.

No-one said about being exactly like Hearthstone, I also mentioned two other games.. so I won't bother responding to that part.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Heaven-Canceler on February 28, 2016, 09:55:43 AM
Basically, if you are good at Rift Runs, this Change is great because you will likely get more rewards for less effort.

If you are bad or mediocre at Rift Runs, this just means you would be throwing more IP out of the window.

The latter people will give Rift Run a shot, then leave it behind* because it is too expensive for too Little a reward for someone who isn't capable of getting a lot of wins consistently. And there is no real method to "Train" Rift Runs since training mode is against AI and thus at most useful for finding out combos of cards.

Oh, and remember with the new Penta Packs the Rare Card loses a lot of value, so the lowered win number for Rare Cards (to 5 if I remember right) is actually less useful than it would be right now.

* Or they will get obsessed with it and Keep getting milked by the good players.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: xMatanX122 on February 28, 2016, 10:57:13 AM
I dont know if they raised the ip rewards but as it is now even if you dont win 1 game in the draft you get around 500 ip. which means 50% of the entry fee. even if the cost raises then 1250 ip loss for a fully lost rift is not a disaster. with time you get better and start winning and earning the fee back. also "milk" newer players since youve improved. also if you play draft its probably because you like it and its fun. or you try it out so i dont think that losing a draft is such a big loss.
moreover the veterans should make a starting draft guide. the faster new draft players will catch up the more challenging and motivating itll be to play. the 5 wins rare maybe worth a bit less because of the penta pack but itll be a breakthrough for all the new people for draft. and a big motivation.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 28, 2016, 11:40:49 AM
not until too long you were pretty much breaking even on 0-3 rifts.
and yet some gifted players say it was an ip sink for them. (losing 100ip per run going 0-3)
you do understand that this is part of the reason why there is no ip boost atm?

you guys keep defending the "little guy" the poor newbie in the harsh world of titans with op decks stumping everyone in rifts and say that the cost will be so great..

do you know how much ip will you get for going 0-3 in the new system?
no, you have no idea. you assume something, and you don't even bother sharing said assumption.

do you really think that poor guy going 0-3 over and over again and spending all of his hard earned ip, in rifts feeding the sharks. is having so much more fun doing so for 1k ip than for 2.5k?
this 0-3 guy is going to play rift all the time for 1k but will surely leave if it is raised to 2.5k.


INCREASED RIFT REWARDS BENEFIT EVERYONE!!!

how can you not understand this?

5-10-21 v 9-18-36 is pretty much half the wins for the same rewards.
regardless of skill you have to put half the current effort to get current rewards.

@ Iguanaman really hearthstone?
look at what Ori said to understand the business model behind rift runs a bit more before you start comparing it to games with a different one.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on February 28, 2016, 12:15:29 PM
Rift runs should be capped around 30ish wins.  Allowing lucky decks to run up 60+ wins (60 losses for other ppl) is not good.  There's a reason other card games have these limits.

I respectfully disagree. :) I dislike the limits that other card games have on draft wins. If you are fortunate and/or skillful enough to draft a super amazing deck, you should be allowed to pilot it for as long as you possibly can. This gives the pilot an incredible feeling of accomplishment. In fact, decks that surpass a certain threshold of wins should be given a permanent place in a Hall of Fame gallery, accessible for viewing by other players at any time. The decks deserve to be immortalised for the rest of IW's lifespan.

My personal best rift running streak is "only" 33 or 34 wins using 2 GI/1 CoV, so nothing compared to the top rift runners. However, I will never forget that accomplished feeling for as long as I continue drafting.  ;D

I completely agree.
There should be an ingame feature for it, but for now iv'e gathered some data over the past couple of months.
http://forum.lightmare.com.au/index.php?topic=65573.msg151940#msg151940
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 28, 2016, 01:40:25 PM
http://postimg.org/image/952s8c69h/

no epics no legs only 4 rares in deck. 1 lucca. and 62 wins.

hacker confirmed.
oh, wait that's a different guy nvm.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Heaven-Canceler on February 28, 2016, 03:05:20 PM
do you know how much ip will you get for going 0-3 in the new system?
no, you have no idea. you assume something, and you don't even bother sharing said assumption.

do you really think that poor guy going 0-3 over and over again and spending all of his hard earned ip, in rifts feeding the sharks. is having so much more fun doing so for 1k ip than for 2.5k?
this 0-3 guy is going to play rift all the time for 1k but will surely leave if it is raised to 2.5k.

Well, we can only assume that we will get the same IP rewards unless the devs tell us otherwise. Otherwise any form of critique becomes meaningless as we don't know if the devs make further changes without telling us.

I mean, I do you think that they would Change the IP rewards without telling us beforehand? Wouldn't they actually tell us right away? And if they just give more IP.... then why even make it more expensive? What is the Point in making something more expensive, then giving us the same amount back? It makes the raise in pricing Kind of pointless....

(http://i.imgur.com/5MBtpug.png)

Anyone see a mistake in this calculation? (And yes, this is assuming that the IP reward remains the same.)

I never said the current 1000 IP System is good. I mentioned that I stopped bothering with Rift Runs after the first few tries. It is simply not worth it unless you are good or become good quickly.

Edit: first part assumes Player below Level 20, second one is Level 20.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on February 28, 2016, 03:46:11 PM
I mean, I do you think that they would Change the IP rewards without telling us beforehand? Wouldn't they actually tell us right away? And if they just give more IP.... then why even make it more expensive? What is the Point in making something more expensive, then giving us the same amount back? It makes the raise in pricing Kind of pointless....

in all honesty my assumption though it might be wrong is that they will raise ip gain accordingly.
not sure if an run 0-3 will be a 500ip loss only though as it is now.

why make changes cause the current format is underwhelming for all players.
9 - 17 wins for a rare is a joke...
increase in price should mean increase in rewards all across the board and not only a check point reduction for rare-epic-leg.
i mean if they reduce the 9th spot rewards as is now to 5th spot and so on.
that is how i understand it. but i might be very very wrong here, and it is an assumption just like yours.
since no increase in ip rewards were mentioned i do understand where you are coming from,
so i guess we just have to wait for an answer as to what will happen to the ip rewards/other cards.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Myrann on February 29, 2016, 07:25:01 AM
Did we get an answer as to the new price of packs when realigned to USD? Sounds like a quiet way of saying they could increase prices by ~40% (1 USD per 125 LP).

Since I'm just getting into the game, would definitely want to buy a bunch of points before then if that's going to occur.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on February 29, 2016, 08:00:29 AM
It is an Australian game, so it might be $1 AUD = 125LP / $0.71 USD = 125LP.  ;)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Goldschuss on February 29, 2016, 12:25:08 PM
It's funny how suddenly everyone looses their minds about uncommons, when nobody cared about them before.

Gold and foils are now more accessible?
Yeah go ahead. People that argument that their collection is becoming worthless, I pity you... not.

If you decide to spend time or even real money into cosmetics, it's your own desicion with consequences then.
An online game is prone to changes.
And those saying "if my goldfoils lose their worth, I'm quitting this game" ah cmon if you play this game only for the golds, you might stop playing aswell.

If gold cards had additional stats or other bonuses compared to their normal versions i could understand it, but golds gives you nothing! It's just a cheap color effect.

It's the same with other online games though. They get limited/legacy stuff so they can look down on other players like: "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser"
We don't need that kind of Kindergarden here
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Qfasa on February 29, 2016, 12:59:33 PM
It is an Australian game, so it might be $1 AUD = 125LP / $0.71 USD = 125LP.  ;)
This is how it works now and this is exactly what they want to change.


It's funny how suddenly everyone looses their minds about uncommons, when nobody cared about them before.

Gold and foils are now more accessible?
Yeah go ahead. People that argument that their collection is becoming worthless, I pity you... not.

If you decide to spend time or even real money into cosmetics, it's your own desicion with consequences then.
An online game is prone to changes.
And those saying "if my goldfoils lose their worth, I'm quitting this game" ah cmon if you play this game only for the golds, you might stop playing aswell.

If gold cards had additional stats or other bonuses compared to their normal versions i could understand it, but golds gives you nothing! It's just a cheap color effect.

It's the same with other online games though. They get limited/legacy stuff so they can look down on other players like: "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser"
We don't need that kind of Kindergarden here

Gold gives cards their value. They have real money value because of how rare they are. Significant part IW's popularity based on the fact that it is one of the few digital TCGs on the market where cards have real value. And because of it some people have spent a lot on this game.


You want to tell them they are morons, and did it for nothing? I pity this game in that case because it will push away many of those who support it not only with their words but with their money.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 29, 2016, 01:35:37 PM
It's the same with other online games though. They get limited/legacy stuff so they can look down on other players like: "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser"
We don't need that kind of Kindergarden here

Meanwhile 99% of the rewards in the game are entirely about saying "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser". In fact we are about to have a blue rectangle to do that on top of all the golds, plats, foils, alt arts, avatars, titles, battlefields, card backs and deck effects...
So I kind of agree thats kindergarten level and we have a kindergarten rewards system. I mean how much more kindergarten does it get than learning about colours and shapes, like the colour blue and the shape of a rectangle and its soulbound which is perfect because we are in kindergarten and we haven't learned to share yet.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Johnny_Retro on February 29, 2016, 01:44:59 PM
Meanwhile 99% of the rewards in the game life are entirely about saying "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser".
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on February 29, 2016, 01:47:07 PM
Meanwhile 99% of the rewards in the game life are entirely about saying "haha look what I have and what you don't have, loser".

Not my life :P but point taken
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Johnny_Retro on February 29, 2016, 02:08:24 PM
In nature, humans are stockpilers. Hoarding stuff is something we're doing through the ages.
It's also part of human nature, that individuals tryin' to work their way up in the respective group they're interacting with.
They also want to get rewarded for their (hard) work.

A system which operates with all these three things should only be changed very carefully.
Even more when people already achieved something through these factors.

That's my opinion about this whole discussion. =)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Goldschuss on February 29, 2016, 02:53:29 PM
It's the same with other online games though. They get limited/legacy stuff so they can look down on other players like: "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser"
We don't need that kind of Kindergarden here

Meanwhile 99% of the rewards in the game are entirely about saying "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser". In fact we are about to have a blue rectangle to do that on top of all the golds, plats, foils, alt arts, avatars, titles, battlefields, card backs and deck effects...
So I kind of agree thats kindergarten level and we have a kindergarten rewards system. I mean how much more kindergarten does it get than learning about colours and shapes, like the colour blue and the shape of a rectangle and its soulbound which is perfect because we are in kindergarten and we haven't learned to share yet.

Alright, it might not fit so well for IW as anyone can get those rewards instead of being limited like in other games (except for alt. Art)
Then again I think alt. Art should be tradeable so they are accessible to everyone
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on February 29, 2016, 04:59:02 PM

It's the same with other online games though. They get limited/legacy stuff so they can look down on other players like: "haha look what I have and what you don't have, looser"
We don't need that kind of Kindergarden

this is a TRADING CARD GAME. Cards should have value what's wrong with that?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Interesting_Socks on February 29, 2016, 10:11:05 PM
Someone gets paid to read the random crap in this thread >_<

And I'm surprised no one has worked this out yet, but penta packs and the new rift system are not for our benefit.

Infinity Wars just needs to make more money.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on February 29, 2016, 10:28:27 PM
Someone gets paid to read the random crap in this thread >_<

And I'm surprised no one has worked this out yet, but penta packs and the new rift system are not for our benefit.

Infinity Wars just needs to make more money.
Well it dose need to make money there is other ways they can do that with out making there player base quit playing.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: electro13 on February 29, 2016, 10:46:03 PM
I care very little about the rift changes, but for what it's worth as one of the bigger collectors in the game I could not be happier about more premiums entering the rotation. Any real collector would benefit from premiums entering in greater amounts. There's flawed logic behind complaining about the decrease  in value premiums might see (as if people were buying them atm for anything worth it).
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on March 01, 2016, 12:09:54 AM
I care very little about the rift changes, but for what it's worth as one of the bigger collectors in the game I could not be happier about more premiums entering the rotation. Any real collector would benefit from premiums entering in greater amounts. There's flawed logic behind complaining about the decrease  in value premiums might see (as if people were buying them atm for anything worth it).
Well you might think this will be a good thing for getting more premiums and such I would like to point out that as cards cost an extra 150IP each they need to make them about 1.5 times more likely to drop to net even the same odds of a gold to ip spent.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 01:22:12 AM
Folks,

There's been lots of feedback, questions and comments from the player base and as promised, I've put together a consolidated post that tries to cover our response on as many points as possible.  Some things have been paraphrased for the sake of efficiency.

Will existing expansion boosters and decks be available after 1.4.12? E.g. Star Trek packs, etc.
We may introduce cards from packs that have been rotated out on a promotional basis but there are currently no plans to bring them back on a permanent basis.  If you want to buy the cards from existing packs such as Star Trek or Omni packs, we would suggest that you buy them now before the new update hits the live servers.

What about IP rewards for Rift Runs and discounts for buying a draft deck?
There are no changes to the IP rewards for rift runs or the price/discount levels for purchasing a draft deck after completing a rift run

Will there be draft balance changes in this update?  Ie.  Aleta Tinkerer in command zone?
Not with this update.  Draft balancing will be a separate exercise that we will be doing separately and it will be ongoing.

We think the current cost of draft is too low but the new cost of 2500 IP / 85LP seems prohibitively high, maybe 2000 IP per draft?
Appreciate everyone’s feedback on this topic.  The dev team has had a lot of discussing on this topic and modelled out draft costs vs rift run rewards (including both IP rewards and card rewards).  We are readjusting the new pricing at 2000 IP or 75 LP.

When will the alt art / premium packs be available?
We are designing and tuning these now, hopefully they will be available soon.

Will sleepers be rotated out?
Faction rotation plans have currently been put on hold pending a further design review so you can assume that for now, there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.

Will faction packs includes cards from packs that have been rotated out?  Ie.  If IW2013 gets pulled, does the faction packs include cards from IW2013?
Yes.  Faction Penta-Packs will draw from all cards in a particular faction.

Will daily login rewards be replaced with new penta packs?
Off topic for this thread but daily login rewards tuning is an ongoing process and we will keep reviewing/tweaking these rewards levels as the game evolves.  Currently, we feel that daily login rewards have shifted a bit too much and are now a bit light.  We’ll likely beef them up a bit in the near future.

What does this mean for the previous plans for a Foundation Set? Is that still planned? Would the Foundation Set be released as a Penta Pack as well?
Foundation set has been put on hold pending a further design review.

Rift Run Tokens.
We think the concept of Rift Run tokens is a great idea. The dev team has been discussing this and will prioritize the design/development of these into the roadmap.

Different costs/wagers for different rewards in Rift Runs.
We think this is a good idea but that different costs for Rift Runs need different queues in order to work properly.  We’ll be putting this into the roadmap for design discussion
 
Faction Penta-Packs cost too much at 3x the collection/expansion Penta Packs!
We hear you all and the price of Faction Packs is something that we’ve been jousting internally about for a little while as well.  To cut a long story short, the whole team agrees that faction Penta Packs should cost somewhere between 300-450LP.  After listening to feedback from the community and more internally jousting/discussions, we are adjusting the price of Faction Penta Packs to 300LP.
 
Why can’t faction packs be purchased with IP?
All cards that drop from faction Penta Packs can also drop from the Collection or Expansion Penta Packs.  The ability to target cards based on faction is a benefit that we would like to provide to players that are investing real money in the game which in turn helps fund the game’s continued development so that Free to Play players can keep enjoying the game as well.  We may on a promotional basis allow Faction Penta Packs to be purchased with IP for limited periods of time but there is no guarantee when, how frequently or at what price Faction Penta Packs will be available for IP purchase.

Too many premium cards flooding the game economy!
I think once everyone sees the injection points for premium cards in totality, you’ll realize that the market won’t be getting flooded with premiums, at most, the economy for premiums will become more balanced than it currently is today.  In fact, when you see the numbers that we see, most may agree that the current ratio of golds or foils in the economy is way too low to sustain a healthy trading economy.  Here are some high level numbers in terms of premium card %’s in the game economy as it is today:

Will boosters that are currently stored in your inventory be deleted?
No. Boosters that are currently in your inventory will remain there and can be opened at any time.
 
Will there be a factionless Pack?
We are looking into the design of a factionless pack but this pack requires some special design considerations as well as further balance testing before it can be introduced.  Here is why we are treating Factionless pack design separately to other faction packs:

How will pre-orders be handled?
There are currently no plans to change pre-orders but then again we haven’t discussed this a lot internally (yet).  When we have news about new sets/cards coming out, we’ll let you know more.

Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?
No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

When you bolt LP pricing to US$, what will be the conversions rates?  Should we buy now or later?
That depends on how much you want to spend, if you’re going to buy a 125LP pack, then buying now will be cheaper.  The new LP packs will be designed so that the larger the LP pack you buy, the better the deal is.  In fact, buying more in one go with give extremely significant discounts on a $/LP basis.  Below is a table of LP pricing in $US when 1.4.12 goes live.

Price (USD)|LP Amount|LP per US$1
$1|125|125
$5|825|165
$10|1700|170
$25|4375|175
$50|9375|188
$100|25,000|250
$500|140,625|281
$1,000|312,500|313

Just tell us what the rift run rewards are.

OK, here’s the rift rewards table as they stand now.  Note that rewards in this table are subject to change:
   
1         Common
2         Common + Common
3         Uncommon + Common + Common
4         Uncommon + Uncommon + Common
5         Rare
6         Rare + Common
7         Rare + Uncommon + Common
8         Rare + Uncommon + Uncommon
9         Rare + Rare + Uncommon
10         Epic
12         Epic + Uncommon
15         Epic + Rare + Uncommon
18         Epic + Rare + Rare
21         Legendary
24         Legendary + Rare
27         Legendary + Epic + Rare
30         Legendary + Epic + Epic
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Rare
40         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic
45         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Legendary
50         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
60         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
100         Infinity Legendary + Gold Rare or above + Gold Uncommon or above 

 
Can you get multiple rares, epics, legendaries inside a Penta Pack.
Yes, if you are a lucky person.  All 5 cards in a Penta Pack have a chance to be any rarity.  All 5 cards in a Penta Pack also have a chance to be Gold, foiled or Gold and foiled.

Are rares now the new uncommon?  Is it much harder to get uncommons/commons?
No.
 
Are we only seeing part of the elephant?  Is there more to the elephant that we haven’t seen?

Yes, you are only seeing part of the elephant.  We are actively working on other parts of the elephant and we’re not ready to show it to you guys yet but the list of things that we are currently working on include (but are not limited to) the following:

What will happen to current runs when the new patch hits?
Current active rift runs will remain active once the new patch hits and when the run ends, the new rewards will be reflected.

Change rift run practice mode into a free rift run mode with no rewards
We think this could be a good idea and will flag this for design review/discussion.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on March 01, 2016, 01:43:19 AM
·        Different costs/wagers for different rewards in Rift Runs.

We think this is a good idea but that different costs for Rift Runs need different queues in order to work properly.  We’ll be putting this into the roadmap for design discussion


I wouldn't split the queues until the player base is at least triple what it is now. Plus youd have the hassle of putting in different leaderboards and stuff. So if the queues need to be split id put this on the baaack burner.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on March 01, 2016, 01:50:13 AM
I still want to know how you plan on helping new players to get the commons and uncommons they need to get started on there decks as with this change they are looking like they will see a huge spike in value both in trade and on third party sites.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on March 01, 2016, 02:23:31 AM
·        Will boosters that are currently stored in your inventory be deleted?

No.  Boosters that are currently in your inventory will remain there and can be opened at any time.

I guess a follow up question to this would be: will boosters that are bought now be 15-card boosters after the patch? or will the transform into 5-card packs? Also: one way or another, will the booster use the new premium drop rates when opening them after the patch? or the old ones?

When will the patch hit the live server? not the beta patch, but the actual patch? Would be nice to have an ETA for people who want to get Star Trek and Omni cards.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on March 01, 2016, 02:30:07 AM
Have you considered bigger card packs rather than only 5?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: wooferdog on March 01, 2016, 02:45:35 AM
The new LP packs will be designed so that the larger the LP pack you buy, the better the deal is.  In fact, buying more in one go with give extremely significant discounts on a $/LP basis.

I'm happy that you are finally implementing a bulk buying discount for LP. I hated the old system of getting "free" IP with each LP purchase instead of getting a discount.

Random question - will IP still be given out with LP, or will the only way to get IP be via internal game functions (matches, daily rewards, etc)?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on March 01, 2016, 03:01:05 AM
·        Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?
No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

So you are literately just doing this to waste our time then. You could just say upfront but instead you want people to go on test server and spam buying packs and count them up and then do the maths? Why? Thats a deliberate waste of your players time and personally I don't appreciate it. We already spend enough time helping you improve your product please dont waste our time for no reason.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Heyheuhei on March 01, 2016, 03:11:44 AM
·        Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?
No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

So you are literately just doing this to waste our time then. You could just say upfront but instead you want people to go on test server and spam buying packs and count them up and then do the maths? Why? Thats a deliberate waste of your players time and personally I don't appreciate it. We already spend enough time helping you improve your product please dont waste our time for no reason.

But but i am so excited to open packs for 500k LP. Child inside  ;D ;D
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on March 01, 2016, 04:11:55 AM
Oh god my eyes. They're bleeding. Here gimme a second...

Quote
Folks,

There's been lots of feedback, questions and comments from the player base and as promised, I've put together a consolidated post that tries to cover our response on as many points as possible.  Some things have been paraphrased for the sake of efficiency.


Quote
Will existing expansion boosters and decks be available after 1.4.12?  eg.  Star Trek packs, etc

We may introduce cards from packs that have been rotated out on a promotional basis but there are currently no plans to bring them back on a permanent basis.  If you want to buy the cards from existing packs such as Star Trek or Omni packs, we would suggest that you buy them now before the new update hits the live servers.

Quote
What about IP rewards for Rift Runs and discounts for buying a draft deck?


There are no changes to the IP rewards for rift runs or the price/discount levels for purchasing a draft deck after completing a rift run


Quote
Will there be draft balance changes in this update?  Ie.  Aleta Tinkerer in command zone?

Not with this update.  Draft balancing will be a separate exercise that we will be doing separately and it will be ongoing.


Quote
We think the current cost of draft is too low but the new cost of 2500 IP / 85LP seems prohibitively high, maybe 2000 IP per draft?

Appreciate everyone’s feedback on this topic.  The dev team has had a lot of discussing on this topic and modelled out draft costs vs rift run rewards (including both IP rewards and card rewards).  We are readjusting the new pricing at 2000 IP or 75 LP.


Quote
When will the alt art / premium packs be available?

We are designing and tuning these now, hopefully they will be available soon.

Quote
Will sleepers be rotated out?

Faction rotation plans have currently been put on hold pending a further design review so you can assume that for now, there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.

Quote
Will faction packs includes cards from packs that have been rotated out?  Ie.  If IW2013 gets pulled, does the faction packs include cards from IW2013?

Yes.  Faction Penta-Packs will draw from all cards in a particular faction.

Quote
Will daily login rewards be replaced with new penta packs?

Off topic for this thread but daily login rewards tuning is an ongoing process and we will keep reviewing/tweaking these rewards levels as the game evolves.  Currently, we feel that daily login rewards have shifted a bit too much and are now a bit light.  We’ll likely beef them up a bit in the near future.

Quote
What does this mean for the previous plans for a Foundation Set? Is that still planned? Would the Foundation Set be released as a Penta Pack as well?

Foundation set has been put on hold pending a further design review.

Quote
Rift Run Tokens.

We think the concept of Rift Run tokens is a great idea. The dev team has been discussing this and will prioritize the design/development of these into the roadmap.

Quote
Different costs/wagers for different rewards in Rift Runs.

We think this is a good idea but that different costs for Rift Runs need different queues in order to work properly.  We’ll be putting this into the roadmap for design discussion
 

Quote
Faction Penta-Packs cost too much at 3 x the collection/expansion Penta Packs

We hear you all and the price of Faction Packs is something that we’ve been jousting internally about for a little while as well.  To cut a long story short, the whole team agrees that faction Penta Packs should cost somewhere between 300-450LP.  After listening to feedback from the community and more internally jousting/discussions, we are adjusting the price of Faction Penta Packs to 300LP.
 
Quote
Why can’t faction packs be purchased with IP?

All cards that drop from faction Penta Packs can also drop from the Collection or Expansion Penta Packs.  The ability to target cards based on faction is a benefit that we would like to provide to players that are investing real money in the game which in turn helps fund the game’s continued development so that Free to Play players can keep enjoying the game as well.  We may on a promotional basis allow Faction Penta Packs to be purchased with IP for limited periods of time but there is no guarantee when, how frequently or at what price Faction Penta Packs will be available for IP purchase.

 

Quote
Too many premium cards flooding the game economy

I think once everyone sees the injection points for premium cards in totality, you’ll realize that the market won’t be getting flooded with premiums, at most, the economy for premiums will become more balanced than it currently is today.  In fact, when you see the numbers that we see, most may agree that the current ratio of golds or foils in the economy is way too low to sustain a healthy trading economy.  Here are some high level numbers in terms of premium card %’s in the game economy as it is today:

§  8.43% of all cards are Platinum
§  0.03% of all cards are Platinum + foil
§  0.22% of all cards are gold
§  0.22% of all cards are foil
§  0.01% of all cards are gold + foil


Quote
Will boosters that are currently stored in your inventory be deleted?

No.  Boosters that are currently in your inventory will remain there and can be opened at any time.
 

Quote
Will there be a factionless Pack?

We are looking into the design of a factionless pack but this pack requires some special design considerations as well as further balance testing before it can be introduced.  Here is why we are treating Factionless pack design separately to other faction packs:

§  Factionless has a significantly smaller card pool than any of the other factions, thereby increasing the chances of getting particular factionless cards as opposed to other faction packs.
§  Factionless cards can be used in any purity deck, making them extremely versatile and powerful and having the ability to open a card pack with only factionless cards creates a powerful tool for deck building.
§  Some of the most powerful cards that can be combined with any deck purity is found in factionless.  Ie. Mortar Cannon, Martyr Golem, Zuza, Shikana, Calamity to name a few.  We want to carefully consider the pack design for factionless before introducing it into the economy.

Quote
How will pre-orders be handled?
There are currently no plans to change pre-orders but then again we haven’t discussed this a lot internally (yet).  When we have news about new sets/cards coming out, we’ll let you know more.

 

Quote
Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?

No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

Quote
When you bolt LP pricing to US$, what will be the conversions rates?  Should we buy now or later?

That depends on how much you want to spend, if you’re going to buy a 125LP pack, then buying now will be cheaper.  The new LP packs will be designed so that the larger the LP pack you buy, the better the deal is.  In fact, buying more in one go with give extremely significant discounts on a $/LP basis.  Below is a table of LP pricing in $US when 1.4.12 goes live.

Price (USD)|LP Amount|LP per US$1
$1|125|125
$5|825|165
$10|1700|170
$25|4375|175
$50|9375|188
$100|25,000|250
$500|140,625|281
$1,000|312,500|313



Quote
Just tell us what the rift run rewards are.

OK, here’s the rift rewards table as they stand now.  Note that rewards in this table are subject to change:

   
1         Common
2         Common + Common
3         Uncommon + Common + Common
4         Uncommon + Uncommon + Common
5         Rare
6         Rare + Common
7         Rare + Uncommon + Common
8         Rare + Uncommon + Uncommon
9         Rare + Rare + Uncommon
10         Epic
12         Epic + Uncommon
15         Epic + Rare + Uncommon
18         Epic + Rare + Rare
21         Legendary
24         Legendary + Rare
27         Legendary + Epic + Rare
30         Legendary + Epic + Epic
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Rare
40         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic
45         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Legendary
50         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
60         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
100         Infinity Legendary + Gold Rare or above + Gold Uncommon or above 

 
Quote
Can you get multiple rares, epics, legendaries inside a Penta Pack.
Yes, if you are a lucky person.  All 5 cards in a Penta Pack have a chance to be any rarity.  All 5 cards in a Penta Pack also have a chance to be Gold, foiled or Gold and foiled.

Quote
Are rares now the new uncommon?  Is it much harder to get uncommons/commons?

No.
 

Quote
Are we only seeing part of the elephant?  Is there more to the elephant that we haven’t seen?

Yes, you are only seeing part of the elephant.  We are actively working on other parts of the elephant and we’re not ready to show it to you guys yet but the list of things that we are currently working on include (but are not limited to) the following:

§  PVE campaign missions + new rewards for the new PVE campaign missions.
§  Review of level up rewards
§  New vanities such as avatars, card backs, etc.
§  Lots & lots of new UI/UX tweaks, redesigns and optimizations
§  More new Penta Packs
§  A new “Fixed Deck Arena” mode for new players getting into PVP for the first time.
§  Helper tools for running tournaments
§  Better admin tools so that our Community Managers can create new packs/prizes and can run more adhoc events award prizes without the need for the dev team to make any code changes.
§  Killing the elusive “Endless Turns” bugs.  P.S.  We have recently made a major breakthrough on this front and I will be writing a separate article/post in the next couple of weeks to update you all on this.
 

Quote
What will happen to current runs when the new patch hits?
Current active rift runs will remain active once the new patch hits and when the run ends, the new rewards will be reflected.

Quote
Change rift run practice mode into a free rift run mode with no rewards
We think this could be a good idea and will flag this for design review/discussion.

(http://i.imgur.com/zSAzcex.png)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: watchmedie on March 01, 2016, 05:03:57 AM
30         Legendary + Epic + Epic
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Rare

so one gold uncommon is worth 2 epic + 5 wins on top of that?
feels bad man.

edit: common even, feels worse man.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rethorian on March 01, 2016, 05:10:34 AM
30         Legendary + Epic + Epic
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Rare

so one gold uncommon is worth 2 epic + 5 wins on top of that?
feels bad man.

I can definitely see people conceding out of a rift run at 30 or 60 wins.

60 wins is 2 Legendaries and a Golden Uncommon or better.
70 wins is a SOULBOUND Infinity Border Rare, and 2 Golden Uncommon or better.

I think you're vastly overestimating what an Infinite Border and Gold Uncommons are to most people.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on March 01, 2016, 05:56:20 AM
Strike 1. You gave people the Rewards List.

I would be happy to help redesign a more feedback friendly rewards list, just let me know.  ;D

(Free of charge)  :'(
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ORISOLVE on March 01, 2016, 06:17:46 AM
Also math.  ;)

Price (USD)   LP Amount   LP per US$1 (Multiplication Factor) (Without Multiplication Factor)
$1                    125            125                               (1x)                         (125)
$5                    825            165                               (1.32x)                    (625)
$10                  1,700         170                               (1.36x)                    (1250)
$25                  4,375         175                               (1.4x)                      (3125)
$50                  9,375         187.5                            (1.504x)                  (6250)
$100                25,000       250                               (2x)                         (12500)
$500                140,625     281.25                          (2.25x)                    (62500)
$1,000             312,500     312.5                            (2.5x)                      (125000)

                  Bonus LP        Bonus per dollar           Comparison to Previous
$1              0                     0                                  0
$5              200                 40                                40
$10            450                 45                                5
$25            1250               50                                5
$50            3125               62.5                             12.5
$100          12500             125                              62.5
$500          78125             156.25                         31.25
$1000        187500           187.5                           31.25

So I did the math, and if you are not made of money, the optimal amount of LP to purchase is $100 with $5 coming in a close second. Of course if you are made of money, you would buy the $1000 worth of LP netting 187.5 more Bonus LP per dollar.

P.S.

$100 USD = 83 Faction Penta Packs/166 Core or Expansion Penta Packs with 100 LP leftover & Total Gain of 415 vs. 830 cards.

Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: RikkiTikki on March 01, 2016, 06:45:43 AM
·        Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?
No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

So you are literately just doing this to waste our time then. You could just say upfront but instead you want people to go on test server and spam buying packs and count them up and then do the maths? Why? Thats a deliberate waste of your players time and personally I don't appreciate it. We already spend enough time helping you improve your product please dont waste our time for no reason.

But but i am so excited to open packs for 500k LP. Child inside  ;D ;D

I personally had a BLAST opening up 99 Penta Packs! ;D
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Trevinburgh on March 01, 2016, 08:11:51 AM

Why can’t faction packs be purchased with IP?
All cards that drop from faction Penta Packs can also drop from the Collection or Expansion Penta Packs.  The ability to target cards based on faction is a benefit that we would like to provide to players that are investing real money in the game which in turn helps fund the game’s continued development so that Free to Play players can keep enjoying the game as well.  We may on a promotional basis allow Faction Penta Packs to be purchased with IP for limited periods of time but there is no guarantee when, how frequently or at what price Faction Penta Packs will be available for IP purchase.

Seems fair to me. How does this fit with the previously stated desire to move to a single in-game currency? Will Faction Packs then be a direct cash purchase?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 10:32:27 AM

Just tell us what the rift run rewards are.

OK, here’s the rift rewards table as they stand now.  Note that rewards in this table are subject to change:
   
1         Common
2         Common + Common
3         Uncommon + Common + Common
4         Uncommon + Uncommon + Common
5         Rare
6         Rare + Common
7         Rare + Uncommon + Common
8         Rare + Uncommon + Uncommon
9         Rare + Rare + Uncommon
10         Epic
12         Epic + Uncommon
15         Epic + Rare + Uncommon
18         Epic + Rare + Rare
21         Legendary
24         Legendary + Rare
27         Legendary + Epic + Rare
30         Legendary + Epic + Epic
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Rare
40         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic
45         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Legendary
50         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
60         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
100         Infinity Legendary + Gold Rare or above + Gold Uncommon or above 


I think that all gold commons or above rewards should be changed to gold rares, a gold common does not worth 2 epics + 5wins as previously been said.
You've already stated that players in 26-50 will get a foil, 26-50 are usually players with 13 wins and below.

I'm not sure about the 70+ rewards tho, might need some balancing, other than that it looks fine to me.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: InvertedEye on March 01, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
I don't want any of my epics or legends being replaced by lower rarity premiums especially ones I can't trade, if the rift run rewards stay like this I would concede early.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Johnny_Retro on March 01, 2016, 10:41:02 AM
(...)there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 10:43:05 AM
(...)there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.

3p soa should be at least balanced if not rotated.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Johnny_Retro on March 01, 2016, 10:49:48 AM
Ohh.. usin' a Star Trek meme wasn't the greatest idea, i guess..
Gonna change it now. ^^"
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 12:29:49 PM

Why can’t faction packs be purchased with IP?
All cards that drop from faction Penta Packs can also drop from the Collection or Expansion Penta Packs.  The ability to target cards based on faction is a benefit that we would like to provide to players that are investing real money in the game which in turn helps fund the game’s continued development so that Free to Play players can keep enjoying the game as well.  We may on a promotional basis allow Faction Penta Packs to be purchased with IP for limited periods of time but there is no guarantee when, how frequently or at what price Faction Penta Packs will be available for IP purchase.

Seems fair to me. How does this fit with the previously stated desire to move to a single in-game currency? Will Faction Packs then be a direct cash purchase?

We did have a desire to move to a single game currency.  However, after lots of internal discussion as well as analysis of the significance that the IP currency plays in the games existing economy, especially for Free to Play players, the conclusion was we should keep IP in the game.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: mew28 on March 01, 2016, 12:32:41 PM
·        Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?
No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

So you are literately just doing this to waste our time then. You could just say upfront but instead you want people to go on test server and spam buying packs and count them up and then do the maths? Why? Thats a deliberate waste of your players time and personally I don't appreciate it. We already spend enough time helping you improve your product please dont waste our time for no reason.

But but i am so excited to open packs for 500k LP. Child inside  ;D ;D

I personally had a BLAST opening up 99 Penta Packs! ;D
If you think we will all have a "blast" why not just give the drop rates and save thoughts of us who do not feel like grinding out the numbers some time. I think I can speak for a few people when I say I feel no joy opening a pack on a server where I know I will never get it on my main account.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 12:40:31 PM

Just tell us what the rift run rewards are.

OK, here’s the rift rewards table as they stand now.  Note that rewards in this table are subject to change:
   
1         Common
2         Common + Common
3         Uncommon + Common + Common
4         Uncommon + Uncommon + Common
5         Rare
6         Rare + Common
7         Rare + Uncommon + Common
8         Rare + Uncommon + Uncommon
9         Rare + Rare + Uncommon
10         Epic
12         Epic + Uncommon
15         Epic + Rare + Uncommon
18         Epic + Rare + Rare
21         Legendary
24         Legendary + Rare
27         Legendary + Epic + Rare
30         Legendary + Epic + Epic
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Rare
40         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic
45         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Legendary
50         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
60         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Legendary
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Uncommon or above + Gold Uncommon or above
100         Infinity Legendary + Gold Rare or above + Gold Uncommon or above 


I think that all gold commons or above rewards should be changed to gold rares, a gold common does not worth 2 epics + 5wins as previously been said.
You've already stated that players in 26-50 will get a foil, 26-50 are usually players with 13 wins and below.

I'm not sure about the 70+ rewards tho, might need some balancing, other than that it looks fine to me.

We're gonna to keep it like this for now and then monitor how things go for a little while.  Premium cards (golds and foils) right now are some of the rarest cards in the economy by a long shot, much rarer than an epic and about on par with a legendary.

We have the ability to track and analyze the % breakdown of different card types in the economy so we'll be monitoring how the new changes affect the economy and make adjustments as needed to maintain balance.

Different players value different card types over others depending on the status of their collection.  Some may prefer an Epic/legendary, whereas others would rather have a gold/foil instead.  The team will be continually monitoring the changes in card economy %'s, especially for hard to obtain card types such as Epics, Legendaries and premiums, then make adjustments as needed to keep things in check.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: InvertedEye on March 01, 2016, 12:50:34 PM
Just because premiums are very rare doesn't mean players want them, can we at least get the option to choose between getting epic and legends or getting premiums?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 01:02:18 PM
·        Will you publish the drop rates/target ratios for cards in Penta Packs?
No we won’t but we’ll be letting you all experience the drop rates for yourself on the PBE servers when they go up.  All new accounts created on the PBE servers will be given 500k LP so you can test out the drop rates for the Penta Packs for yourselves.

So you are literately just doing this to waste our time then. You could just say upfront but instead you want people to go on test server and spam buying packs and count them up and then do the maths? Why? Thats a deliberate waste of your players time and personally I don't appreciate it. We already spend enough time helping you improve your product please dont waste our time for no reason.

But but i am so excited to open packs for 500k LP. Child inside  ;D ;D

I personally had a BLAST opening up 99 Penta Packs! ;D
If you think we will all have a "blast" why not just give the drop rates and save thoughts of us who do not feel like grinding out the numbers some time. I think I can speak for a few people when I say I feel no joy opening a pack on a server where I know I will never get it on my main account.

Just going to be blunt here and state that we will not be publishing drop rates.  We never have published drop rates and we have no plans to start publishing them.

Part of our job as developers is to design, simulate and test the drop rates of items in game (whether they be card packs or other RNG influenced rewards).  We have run 10's of thousands of simulations to model and confirm that the drop rates are behaving as we have designed them.  We have also run thousands of manual card pack openings within the team to test the in-game feel of getting cards of different rarities when opening a pack.  As players buy packs (or not), we will be monitoring the metrics to see if we have in fact achieved the desired balance and if we feel we need to adjust drop rates on certain card types, we will also let the community know.  We may not tell you the exact amount of the adjustments that we make, but we will typically give you an idea of the magnitude of adjustment and why we think it's necessary.

We believe the most important aspect of whether a card pack is designed correctly is the feel of opening card packs in game and whether the process of opening packs creates satisfaction and desire.  We don't believe that a paper analysis of hypothetical numbers by itself can accurately simulate or reflect the in-game experience and that's why we also do thousands of manual pack openings ourselves to validate the experience.

Some people like opening packs, some players don't.  We are providing a mechanic via the PBE servers to allow players that want to test/experience the pack opening process to do so.  If you like doing it, we think it's great and we would appreciate your feedback on the experience.  If you think it's a waste of time, there is absolutely no obligation to open packs on PBE.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: InvertedEye on March 01, 2016, 01:17:12 PM
Just because premiums are very rare doesn't mean players want them, can we at least get the option to choose between getting epic and legends or getting premiums?

We'd like to put a stake in the ground and go with this for now so we can get some data and monitoring how things go.  It doesn't mean it's going to stay like this forever but we do want to get some data first before making additional adjustments.  Some players may decide to concede early in order to secure additional Epics rather than getting premiums but then, they would also risk potentially losing out on the rewards from a higher ranking on the weekly leaderboard reward tables.

If after a few weeks, the data tells us that we're completely nuts and that our design is completely batsheep crazy, you can rest assured that we'll want to tune it.  :)  The goal once again is to achieve balance and having more real life data will help us determine where the right balance is.

Any design that knowingly rewards conceding and not winning is completely batsheep already, you don't need data when you just said yourself already that is what players will do and what I will do once this system is in place.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: OneTwo on March 01, 2016, 01:22:57 PM
First of all, i dont care much about rift runs... did my 500 wins task, and thats it. And after all, i dont put much effort in the game right now as well.

But i think the arguments you all are bringing are legit. The IW crew is scared to ruin the only real money-grabbing market they have! And they are right... handling anything to lightly might ruin the USD cashflow in a blink of an eye, if there is any right now. Dont know!

On the other side, i understand any player who feels downgraded for receiving a Gold Scramble INSTEAD of an Epic, but needed 5 more wins! In Rift Runs there should be only one direction: Add On! Everything is on top of the previous tiers.

And to avoid the huge impact of the existing market, design a prize pool only for rift runs. Put Alt-Arts (with chance of premium - including ALL preorder Alt-Arts, For Sale Alt Arts, Christmas Gifts etc...), Exp-Boosts, Rift-Run Tokens, Tournament Fee Tokens etc in one huge pot. That guarantees, that everyone has the chance of getting something he might like or can use - but, ON TOP of the previous tiers!

Create a new (trading-)market, which is exclusive dominated by good rift runners. They can decide if trading away is prefered, or keeping/using by themselves. Would add so much more content to the game and the trading aspect.

You dont need to monitor anything, and hope that it will work out somehow. Create something which cant be compared to any other mode or scenario, and you will have more hype than coming around the corner with a reheated system, but providing some more borders maybe 10% of the rift runners do care about.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 01:31:15 PM

Any design that knowingly rewards conceding and not winning is completely batsheep already, you don't need data when you just said yourself already that is what players will do and what I will do once this system is in place.

Actually scratch what I said in that last post (in fact, I've removed it).  I just realized that the team has been changing the RR reward tables for levels 35 wins and beyond so we're still open to adjustments for those ranges.   The current tables is what they are set at for the PBE servers but we're still open to adjusting them before they go to the live servers so keep coming with feedbacks and suggestions on reward ranges for 35 wins +.

Apologies and my bad for causing confusion.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 01:45:26 PM
I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary 
70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary 


Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: OneTwo on March 01, 2016, 01:49:30 PM
I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

Perfectly fine - good job!

But still dont understand why the game is promoting foil cards, while even the devs put them on irrelevant status :)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 01:52:48 PM
I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

*Dances*
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Adorabear on March 01, 2016, 01:54:05 PM
Just going to be blunt here and state that we will not be publishing drop rates. We never have published drop rates and we have no plans to start publishing them.

Blunt it is then. Its a real shame you came in talking about transparency and communication and 'have no plans' to tell people what it is you are actually selling. Selling promotional packs with 'better' drop rates and refusing to publish what those rates are or how they are 'better'... sounds like a straight up scam to me. Not to mention you just said you intend to alter drop rates and not tell people by how much. Like expecting people to place bets on a horse race and the bookie wont even tell you what the odds are lol.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 01:54:40 PM
I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

Perfectly fine - good job!

We've been changing a lot of things around over the past few days so there's multiple versions of reward tables inside our internal wiki and notes on what are "set" and what are still "fluid".  Reward tables for < 35 wins are definitely set for now and 35+ are still fluid (hence the multiple versions).

We will be looking to have these all "set" before these migrate from PBE to live.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Symphony on March 01, 2016, 02:01:18 PM
Quote
Will sleepers be rotated out?
Faction rotation plans have currently been put on hold pending a further design review so you can assume that for now, there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.
If that's the case, please consider putting sleepers balancing on a higher priority in the to-do list.

Quote
Different costs/wagers for different rewards in Rift Runs.
We think this is a good idea but that different costs for Rift Runs need different queues in order to work properly.  We’ll be putting this into the roadmap for design discussion
I'm really glad you guys understand this. Like adora said, it probably won't be a thing unless we get a huge pop spike, but don't ever merge different paying queues.

Quote
Blunt it is then. Its a real shame you came in talking about transparency and communication and 'have no plans' to tell people what it is you are actually selling. Selling promotional packs with 'better' drop rates and refusing to publish what those rates are or how they are 'better'... sounds like a straight up scam to me. Not to mention you just said you intend to alter drop rates and not tell people by how much. Like expecting people to place bets on a horse race and the bookie wont even tell you what the odds are lol.
+1 to this. If you're going to give us the option to just run numbers in the test server, why not just publish the damn things already? Having hidden drop rates or modifiers without telling the community sounds really crappy. A major-ish breakthrough happened in the HS community recently, where they found out there was a epic/legendary/gold 'pitty-timer' in the card packs and this has changed dramatically how people approach packs now. It would've been so much easier if this info was made public by the publishers themselves, and I think it's exactly the same here.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 02:06:30 PM
Just going to be blunt here and state that we will not be publishing drop rates. We never have published drop rates and we have no plans to start publishing them.

Blunt it is then. Its a real shame you came in talking about transparency and communication and 'have no plans' to tell people what it is you are actually selling. Selling promotional packs with 'better' drop rates and refusing to publish what those rates are or how they are 'better'... sounds like a straight up scam to me. Not to mention you just said you intend to alter drop rates and not tell people by how much. Like expecting people to place bets on a horse race and the bookie wont even tell you what the odds are lol.

I'm sorry you feel this way but I honestly believe that we have been extremely transparent in what we've been communicating to the player community.  Much more so than other CCG/TCG's that are on the market.  That does not mean we will tell you every single formula, algorithm, reward table, game logic in every aspect of the game. 

We have provided a way for players to simulate the results and drop rates for each and every pack we are making available via the PBE servers which I believe is already more transparency than other games provide.  We have said that we will tell you when drop rates change which is again more than most game developers will do.

I really don't appreciate that you're insulting the dev team and accusing us of scamming our player base simply because we won't bend to your will and do exactly what you want, when you want it.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 02:15:24 PM
Just going to be blunt here and state that we will not be publishing drop rates. We never have published drop rates and we have no plans to start publishing them.

Blunt it is then. Its a real shame you came in talking about transparency and communication and 'have no plans' to tell people what it is you are actually selling. Selling promotional packs with 'better' drop rates and refusing to publish what those rates are or how they are 'better'... sounds like a straight up scam to me. Not to mention you just said you intend to alter drop rates and not tell people by how much. Like expecting people to place bets on a horse race and the bookie wont even tell you what the odds are lol.

I'm sorry you feel this way but I honestly believe that we have been extremely transparent in what we've been communicating to the player community.  Much more so than other CCG/TCG's that are on the market.  That does not mean we will tell you every single formula, algorithm, reward table, game logic in every aspect of the game. 

We have provided a way for players to simulate the results and drop rates for each and every pack we are making available via the PBE servers which I believe is already more transparency than other games provide.  We have said that we will tell you when drop rates change which is again more than most game developers will do.

I really don't appreciate that you're insulting the dev team and accusing us of scamming our player base simply because we won't bend to your will and do exactly what you want, when you want it.

I understand Adorabear's concern but at the same time i think we should trust the dev team more, the packs aren't even live and yet players are criticizing the devs for scamming them, when the devs say: "The drops will improve" i think we should take their word for it, they have done a lot of things right so far and seem very dedicated to the cause, and i don't mind buying some packs without knowing exactly what i might get out of them, for me, random pack rewards are just part of the game .
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 02:17:33 PM
Quote
Will sleepers be rotated out?
Faction rotation plans have currently been put on hold pending a further design review so you can assume that for now, there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.
If that's the case, please consider putting sleepers balancing on a higher priority in the to-do list.

Could not agree more.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Crestmoor on March 01, 2016, 02:20:51 PM
Quote
Will sleepers be rotated out?
Faction rotation plans have currently been put on hold pending a further design review so you can assume that for now, there are no plans to rotate out the Sleepers.
If that's the case, please consider putting sleepers balancing on a higher priority in the to-do list.

Could not agree more.

I think there's already a separate thread on Sleeper balancing with pretty good arguments both ways so let's take this topic there instead. 

thx.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: InvertedEye on March 01, 2016, 02:22:49 PM
As long as the reward rarity gets downgraded on premiums I am going to have problem with the system, the premiums will be worth less in trading with this system anyway and I hate bartering with players, I came here to play a game not to be a trader. Allowing players to choose the rewards is a very simple way around this I don't know why it isn't being considered.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Dogeee [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 02:26:07 PM
well if we have 500k LP or so in the PBE we will have enough resources to figure.
why not try finding out an approximation value ourselves if they are not willing to tell us?
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rawonall on March 01, 2016, 03:05:32 PM
I believe is already more transparency than other games provide.

That's actually not accurate. MTG Online has a great way of handling "drops", which is almost perfectly transparent, and really, really simple.

It just emulates paper print sheets.

Each pack in MTG contains 10 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare (or mythic), one basic land, and possibly a foil card in place of a common.

Commons, uncommons and lands are printed on different sheets, while rare and mythics share the  same sheet but each rare appears two times while each mythic just once.

The game keeps track of a global "printed cards" supply which includes several (dozens? Hundreds?) "print runs" (a print run being one full sheet). Whenever a pack is opened (not purchased, opened) the appropriate amount of cards from each rarity is randomly selected from the printed cards supply, awarded to the customer and subtracted from the supply. Then, whenever a supply becomes too short, another sheet is "printed" and added to the supply. Various mechanisms to prevent duplicates in packs or a guaranteed amount of premium cards may be implemented.

This guarantees several benefits, the greatest one being that, even if the pack-opening RNG algorithm screws up something, the distribution of cards in the long run is exactly the intended one.

You could implement the same algorithm in IW by using two sheets, one containing just rare+ cards, and the othe containing commons and uncommons too, then selecting one card from the first sheet and four cards from the second each time a pack is opened.

Example with completely made up numbers:

Sheet 1 contains 20 of each rare, 4 of each epic, 1 of each legendary.
Sheet 2 has 125 of each common, 50 of each uncommon, 20 of each rare, 4 of each epic, 1 of each legendary.

With totally fresh print runs the odds of getting a legendary in each given pack would therefore be 1- the odds of not getting it in any of the slots = 1 - (24/25 * 199/200 * 198/199 * 197/198 * 196/197 * 195/196 ) = 6,4 %

The odds of getting one in subsequent packs would depend on the amount of legendary cards already opened, just like real TCG's booster boxes.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on March 01, 2016, 03:09:32 PM
I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

That's too rich I think Crestmoor. I'd like to propose the following for +35 wins (I've put differences with yours in bold below in my explanation):

35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic
40         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Epic
45         Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
50         Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
60         Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Epic + Legendary
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Epic + Gold Epic
100        Infinity Legendary + Gold Epic + Gold Legendary

And here's a rundown of why I propose these changes. First of all there needs to be a progression, even with gold commons and uncommons. It should be noted that rewards at 35 and 40 wins say gold common/uncommon OR ABOVE. Nobody seems to notice that part, and it's an important one, you get the chance to get a gold of a higher rarity at a much lower level than you'd have to reach.

Quote
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic (giving a guaranteed gold Rare at 35 is too soon in my opinion, I've replaced the last card with an Epic to respect the epic you get at 30 wins)
40         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Epic (it gets harder after 50 or so wins, but 40 is still very much reachable, just take a quick look at the drafts leaderboard right now... and people aren't even playing for the rewards yet. You still get the 'or above' chance though)
45         Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic (ok, you've been getting gold commons and uncommons OR ABOVE, now it's time to get a guaranteed gold Rare. The epic just keeps consistency with previous levels, 50 wins should be the deal breaker for dual Legendaries)
50         Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary (and here is when you start getting two Legendaries, at 50 wins)
60         Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary (gold Rare improved to gold Epic.. which you can easily trade for a regular Legendary if you prefer)
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Epic + Legendary (now you get the rare Infinity border, plus a gold Epic, it's too soon to start introducing gold Legendaries, they are very rare for a reason, and I can understand the percentages you've posted with premium market, but gold Legendaries are very VERY rare, and they should be, there's a line at which you also need to think of people who have been trading for premiums for the past 2 years, and respect the effort and money they've put into the game)
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Epic + Gold Epic (80 wins, aka Triple-Epic-Premium rewards. Also, when you look at your table Crestmoor, there's only one level in which you could earn gold Epics)
100       Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary (you want gold Legendaries? ok, you have them, 100 wins gives you 2 of them, plus a Legendary with an Infinity border).
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Wayfinder1026 on March 01, 2016, 03:28:44 PM
I believe is already more transparency than other games provide.

That's actually not accurate. MTG Online has a great way of handling "drops", which is almost perfectly transparent, and really, really simple.

It just emulates paper print sheets.

Each pack in MTG contains 10 commons, 3 uncommons, 1 rare (or mythic), one basic land, and possibly a foil card in place of a common.

Commons, uncommons and lands are printed on different sheets, while rare and mythics share the  same sheet but each rare appears two times while each mythic just once.

The game keeps track of a global "printed cards" supply which includes several (dozens? Hundreds?) "print runs" (a print run being one full sheet). Whenever a pack is opened (not purchased, opened) the appropriate amount of cards from each rarity is randomly selected from the printed cards supply, awarded to the customer and subtracted from the supply. Then, whenever a supply becomes too short, another sheet is "printed" and added to the supply. Various mechanisms to prevent duplicates in packs or a guaranteed amount of premium cards may be implemented.

This guarantees several benefits, the greatest one being that, even if the pack-opening RNG algorithm screws up something, the distribution of cards in the long run is exactly the intended one.

You could implement the same algorithm in IW by using two sheets, one containing just rare+ cards, and the othe containing commons and uncommons too, then selecting one card from the first sheet and four cards from the second each time a pack is opened.

Example with completely made up numbers:

Sheet 1 contains 20 of each rare, 4 of each epic, 1 of each legendary.
Sheet 2 has 125 of each common, 50 of each uncommon, 20 of each rare, 4 of each epic, 1 of each legendary.

With totally fresh print runs the odds of getting a legendary in each given pack would therefore be 1- the odds of not getting it in any of the slots = 1 - (24/25 * 199/200 * 198/199 * 197/198 * 196/197 * 195/196 ) = 6,4 %

The odds of getting one in subsequent packs would depend on the amount of legendary cards already opened, just like real TCG's booster boxes.

Currently in theory, there's a chance to get all rare+ cards in a pack. If they change it to your way that won't be a thing anymore.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Goldschuss on March 01, 2016, 03:34:45 PM
Adora I think the drop rates are information that are treated like internal information, which are not given out.

I mean, a casino doesn't tell you their "drop"rates aswell no? I hope this kind of comparison is legit.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Rawonall on March 01, 2016, 03:41:01 PM
Currently in theory, there's a chance to get all rare+ cards in a pack. If they change it to your way that won't be a thing anymore.

Why not? Guaranteed rare+ from sheet 1, and four random picks from sheet 2.
As long as sheet 2 still contains at least four rare+ cards (it starts with 25/200), you could get all rare+.
Obviously if sheet 2 gives a lot of rare+ cards in early packs it will give less in later ones, and vice versa. This system is safer than pure RNG because it absolutely guarantees that intended card distribution is respected no matter how RNG is implemented (spoiler alert: do NOT trust RNGs to do their job properly unless they are based on unpredictable erratic data collected by sensors external to the machine running them)
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: ES [BoD] on March 01, 2016, 03:43:34 PM
I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

That's too rich I think Crestmoor. I'd like to propose the following for +35 wins (I've put differences with yours in bold below in my explanation):

35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic
40         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Epic
45         Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
50         Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
60         Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Epic + Legendary
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Epic + Gold Epic
100        Infinity Legendary + Gold Epic + Gold Legendary

And here's a rundown of why I propose these changes. First of all there needs to be a progression, even with gold commons and uncommons. It should be noted that rewards at 35 and 40 wins say gold common/uncommon OR ABOVE. Nobody seems to notice that part, and it's an important one, you get the chance to get a gold of a higher rarity at a much lower level than you'd have to reach.

Quote
35         Gold Common or above + Legendary + Epic (giving a guaranteed gold Rare at 35 is too soon in my opinion, I've replaced the last card with an Epic to respect the epic you get at 30 wins)
40         Gold Uncommon or above + Legendary + Epic (it gets harder after 50 or so wins, but 40 is still very much reachable, just take a quick look at the drafts leaderboard right now... and people aren't even playing for the rewards yet. You still get the 'or above' chance though)
45         Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic (ok, you've been getting gold commons and uncommons OR ABOVE, now it's time to get a guaranteed gold Rare. The epic just keeps consistency with previous levels, 50 wins should be the deal breaker for dual Legendaries)
50         Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary (and here is when you start getting two Legendaries, at 50 wins)
60         Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary (gold Rare improved to gold Epic.. which you can easily trade for a regular Legendary if you prefer)
70         Infinity Rare + Gold Epic + Legendary (now you get the rare Infinity border, plus a gold Epic, it's too soon to start introducing gold Legendaries, they are very rare for a reason, and I can understand the percentages you've posted with premium market, but gold Legendaries are very VERY rare, and they should be, there's a line at which you also need to think of people who have been trading for premiums for the past 2 years, and respect the effort and money they've put into the game)
80         Infinity Epic + Gold Epic + Gold Epic (80 wins, aka Triple-Epic-Premium rewards. Also, when you look at your table Crestmoor, there's only one level in which you could earn gold Epics)
100       Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary (you want gold Legendaries? ok, you have them, 100 wins gives you 2 of them, plus a Legendary with an Infinity border).

I don't think that's a good idea,  most people don't really care for common/uncommon golds, especially those who can manage to get to 35+
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Chaz8591 on March 01, 2016, 03:53:53 PM
·        Will boosters that are currently stored in your inventory be deleted?

No.  Boosters that are currently in your inventory will remain there and can be opened at any time.

I guess a follow up question to this would be: will boosters that are bought now be 15-card boosters after the patch? or will the transform into 5-card packs? Also: one way or another, will the booster use the new premium drop rates when opening them after the patch? or the old ones?

When will the patch hit the live server? not the beta patch, but the actual patch? Would be nice to have an ETA for people who want to get Star Trek and Omni cards.

I haven't seen an answer to this, and I would really like to know the answer.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Kevkas on March 01, 2016, 04:05:01 PM
I don't think that's a good idea,  most people don't really care for common/uncommon golds, especially those who can manage to get to 35+

Yet commons and uncommons make like 80% of a deck.
Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
Post by: Klassick on March 01, 2016, 06:47:34 PM
It is not natural and I feel strange about it but... I guess this is the first time that I strongly disagree with what Adorabear thinks.

As a player, I understand that having the "drop rates" would be fine, although, if I were an IW dev., I would NEVER publish what those rates are!

No. Puffing. Way!

This kind of information has a HUGE value and it is what some call a "business secret".

By the way, I am still studing some ways of "taking advantage" of the IW system but, for sure, I can say that giving away exact informations about "drop rates" do represent a huge risk for the game itself.

Having the players checking some factors themselves is one thing, to plubish those numbers (formula!) are another.

And we can't forget we are talking about CHANCES here.

Selling promotional packs with "better" drop rates is nothing more than selling "more chances".

IW Team does not need to show their "formula" to do so.

They can say that they will give "X"% more chances of gaining "Y", and it is ok.

And... if someone believe those "chances" are not "real" (scam), you will need to PROVE IT.

So, as long as IW Team provides a way for players to simulate the drop rates and do the testing, for me, it is a mistake to say that this looks like "a straight up scam".

=====

Changing the subject:


[...]

Too many premium cards flooding the game economy!
I think once everyone sees the injection points for premium cards in totality, you’ll realize that the market won’t be getting flooded with premiums, at most, the economy for premiums will become more balanced than it currently is today.  In fact, when you see the numbers that we see, most may agree that the current ratio of golds or foils in the economy is way too low to sustain a healthy trading economy.  Here are some high level numbers in terms of premium card %’s in the game economy as it is today:
    • 8.43% of all cards are Platinum
    • 0.03% of all cards are Platinum + foil
    • 0.22% of all cards are gold
    • 0.22% of all cards are foil
    • 0.01% of all cards are gold + foil
    [/color]
    [/list]

    This says a lot for me and it is a proof that we are seeing only a part of the elephant.

    Having this info, what I can say is that I really agree with what electro13 said here:

    Any real collector would benefit from premiums entering in greater amounts. There's flawed logic behind complaining about the decrease  in value premiums might see (as if people were buying them atm for anything worth it).
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: watchmedie on March 01, 2016, 07:05:14 PM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc_aVEUOclA

    your stats means nothing to me i believe in this system!

    IT IS ALL ABOUT THE SPARKLES AND GOLDEN GLOW!
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Kevkas on March 01, 2016, 07:09:19 PM
    I don't mind not knowing the real drop rates for premiums in packs, and I actually believe it's info I wouldn't release if I were a dev of this game (in fact, I've even mentioned this to them, so I'm not just saying it in the forums).

    Just as Goldschuss said, a Casino doesn't let you in all their formulas, and I feel IW is being transparent enough with the rest of their info, can't blame them for not telling you everything, they need to draw a line somewhere.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: mew28 on March 01, 2016, 08:08:29 PM
    I don't mind not knowing the real drop rates for premiums in packs, and I actually believe it's info I wouldn't release if I were a dev of this game (in fact, I've even mentioned this to them, so I'm not just saying it in the forums).

    Just as Goldschuss said, a Casino doesn't let you in all their formulas, and I feel IW is being transparent enough with the rest of their info, can't blame them for not telling you everything, they need to draw a line somewhere.
    Well they may not flat out tell us if a few players record what they get from packs after a few 1000 cards they can get a dam good idea of the stats because they do not change that often. All this dose is slow us down ands waste a ton of our time.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 01, 2016, 10:57:02 PM
    Just going to be blunt here and state that we will not be publishing drop rates. We never have published drop rates and we have no plans to start publishing them.

    Blunt it is then. Its a real shame you came in talking about transparency and communication and 'have no plans' to tell people what it is you are actually selling. Selling promotional packs with 'better' drop rates and refusing to publish what those rates are or how they are 'better'... sounds like a straight up scam to me. Not to mention you just said you intend to alter drop rates and not tell people by how much. Like expecting people to place bets on a horse race and the bookie wont even tell you what the odds are lol.

    I'm sorry you feel this way but I honestly believe that we have been extremely transparent in what we've been communicating to the player community.  Much more so than other CCG/TCG's that are on the market.  That does not mean we will tell you every single formula, algorithm, reward table, game logic in every aspect of the game. 

    We have provided a way for players to simulate the results and drop rates for each and every pack we are making available via the PBE servers which I believe is already more transparency than other games provide.  We have said that we will tell you when drop rates change which is again more than most game developers will do.

    I really don't appreciate that you're insulting the dev team and accusing us of scamming our player base simply because we won't bend to your will and do exactly what you want, when you want it.

    Well I don't appreciate you characterizing my criticism of your lack of transparency as insults and accusations and petty demands. You are not more transparent than other ccgs on the market. Both MTG and Heathstone droprates are well known. You weren't asked for "every single formula, algorithm, reward table, game logic in every aspect of the game" only asked for WHAT YOU ARE SELLING.
    Im sorry that you are insulted by me criticizing your business practices but im still going to call things as I see them. You are hiding relevant information from your customers (for no apparent reason) and I don't think thats "extremely transparent" as you describe yourself.



    I mean, a casino doesn't tell you their "drop"rates aswell no? I hope this kind of comparison is legit.

    And casinos are such a scam that many countries and states outlaw them.



    It is not natural and I feel strange about it but... I guess this is the first time that I strongly disagree with what Adorabear thinks.

    This kind of information has a HUGE value and it is what some call a "business secret".

    Its ok to disagree :) I would like to discuss why you disagree though because perhaps you can convince me or I can convince you. For example you state the information has 'huge value' but what is that supposed value? HOW is it a 'business secret' for Lightmare when its not for MTG and Hearthstone. In what possible way is it harmful to Lightmare for players to know what the droprates are. How come they are being less transparent than their competitors while claiming to be more transparent?

    Because I can think of one glaringly obvious reason that it would be harmful to Lightmare for players to know droprates and thats if the droprates are so low that players wont buy packs because they don't think its worth it.
    And also then when they release packs with 'better' drop rates players also wouldn't buy them if the droprates weren't 'better' enough to make the higher price worth it.
    So thats the blatantly obvious reason why its a business secret, they don't want players making an informed decision. However I think thats unethical.
    Perhaps you can describe a different reason for hiding the information from us that paints Lightmare in a better light?
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: gavran on March 01, 2016, 11:03:39 PM
    Not a lot to say on most of the previous pages but just wanted to pop in and say that feedback-reply post was super nice to see and read, and note that I'm also interested in a pvp free rift run system of probably any imagining so it's cool to see you're thinking about that too. Awesome to see such open communication, I love it. :)
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 12:24:21 AM
    Well I don't appreciate you characterizing my criticism of your lack of transparency as insults and accusations and petty demands. You are not more transparent than other ccgs on the market. Both MTG and Heathstone droprates are well known. You weren't asked for "every single formula, algorithm, reward table, game logic in every aspect of the game" only asked for WHAT YOU ARE SELLING.

    Please feel free to refer me to a Hearthstone official site that publishes the drop rates of their card packs or even a way that Blizzard officially provides for you to "figure them out" like we've done by allowing thousands of packs to be opened for free so that players can simulate the drop rates.

    Also, you are insulting the dev team by repeatedly insinuating that we want to scam the players and representing this opinion of yours as fact.  We've provided a way for players to simulate drop rates and players are already taking advantage of this and some are sharing their findings. 
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 12:38:50 AM
    ·        Will boosters that are currently stored in your inventory be deleted?

    No.  Boosters that are currently in your inventory will remain there and can be opened at any time.

    I guess a follow up question to this would be: will boosters that are bought now be 15-card boosters after the patch? or will the transform into 5-card packs? Also: one way or another, will the booster use the new premium drop rates when opening them after the patch? or the old ones?

    When will the patch hit the live server? not the beta patch, but the actual patch? Would be nice to have an ETA for people who want to get Star Trek and Omni cards.

    I haven't seen an answer to this, and I would really like to know the answer.

    Whatever you buy/have in your inventory before the patch won't change after the patch.  they will stay exactly as they are even if you open them after the patch.

    The new patch (1.4.12) is expected to hit live sometime next week. 
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 12:45:56 AM
    Well I don't appreciate you characterizing my criticism of your lack of transparency as insults and accusations and petty demands. You are not more transparent than other ccgs on the market. Both MTG and Heathstone droprates are well known. You weren't asked for "every single formula, algorithm, reward table, game logic in every aspect of the game" only asked for WHAT YOU ARE SELLING.

    Please feel free to refer me to a Hearthstone official site that publishes the drop rates of their card packs or even a way that Blizzard officially provides for you to "figure them out" like we've done by allowing thousands of packs to be opened for free so that players can simulate the drop rates.

    Also, you are insulting the dev team by repeatedly insinuating that we want to scam the players and representing this opinion of yours as fact.  We've provided a way for players to simulate drop rates and players are already taking advantage of this and some are sharing their findings.

    Not the 'dev team' only the individual responsible for this decision. Im starting to think that might be you, because you seem pretty thin skinned about it. I found both MTG and Hearthstone droprates within 5 second googling but I cannot find any such information on your penta packs. And if the droprates are allowed to be known and you have 'provided ways to figure them out' then why cant you say what they are? You've given no reasons and get aggressive when questioned about it.

    I dont WANT to think you are acting unethically and I dont WANT other people to think you are either. I want this game to have a clean reputation with no room for accusations of scammery. If you want people to see you as upfront then act it. So please explain yourself rather than attacking me and saying im 'insulting' you when im clearly not.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 12:59:40 AM
    Not the 'dev team' only the individual responsible for this decision. Im starting to think that might be you, because you seem pretty thin skinned about it. I found both MTG and Hearthstone droprates within 5 second googling but I cannot find any such information on your penta packs. And if the droprates are allowed to be known and you have 'provided ways to figure them out' then why cant you say what they are? You've given no reasons and get aggressive when questioned about it.

    I dont WANT to think you are acting unethically and I dont WANT other people to think you are either. I want this game to have a clean reputation with no room for accusations of scammery. If you want people to see you as upfront then act it. So please explain yourself rather than attacking me and saying im 'insulting' you when im clearly not.
    I also googled Hearthstone drop rates.  Found many 3rd party sites providing player simulation results of drop rates but didn't find Blizzard officially posting the drop rates of card packs for Hearthstone.

    The decision to not publish the exact drop rates of each pack was a unanimous decision by the entire dev team and I'm fully supportive of this decision.  I'm not thinned skinned about this at all, we just don't appreciate being repeatedly accused of scamming.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 01:13:00 AM
    Yet another post not bothering to explain why this was a 'unanimous decision'. You have not been accused of scamming ever, let alone repeatedly, so yes you are being thin skinned about it since you are seeing accusations and insults where there are none. Stop evading the question.

    So for the 4th time now... WHY? WHY WHY WHY WHY? Why wont you simply say what the drop rates are? Is it because you are scamming? Is it for another reason? If its for another reason say what that reason is, because if you don't it looks very much like its the first reason. I don't want it to look like the first reason to anyone so please help me out here for goodness sake.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: mew28 on March 02, 2016, 01:18:22 AM
    Not the 'dev team' only the individual responsible for this decision. Im starting to think that might be you, because you seem pretty thin skinned about it. I found both MTG and Hearthstone droprates within 5 second googling but I cannot find any such information on your penta packs. And if the droprates are allowed to be known and you have 'provided ways to figure them out' then why cant you say what they are? You've given no reasons and get aggressive when questioned about it.

    I dont WANT to think you are acting unethically and I dont WANT other people to think you are either. I want this game to have a clean reputation with no room for accusations of scammery. If you want people to see you as upfront then act it. So please explain yourself rather than attacking me and saying im 'insulting' you when im clearly not.
    I also googled Hearthstone drop rates.  Found many 3rd party sites providing player simulation results of drop rates but didn't find Blizzard officially posting the drop rates of card packs for Hearthstone.

    The decision to not publish the exact drop rates of each pack was a unanimous decision by the entire dev team and I'm fully supportive of this decision.  I'm not thinned skinned about this at all, we just don't appreciate being repeatedly accused of scamming.
    Honestly this dose not look great on you as they have never changed there drop rates and most the companies that do change there drop rates do post about it telling the player the real numbers not just a vague it's "better" or it's "worse".
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 01:25:59 AM
    Yet another post not bothering to explain why this was a 'unanimous decision'. You have not been accused of scamming ever, let alone repeatedly, so yes you are being thin skinned about it since you are seeing accusations and insults where there are none. Stop evading the question.

    So for the 4th time now... WHY? WHY WHY WHY WHY? Why wont you simply say what the drop rates are? Is it because you are scamming? Is it for another reason? If its for another reason say what that reason is, because if you don't it looks very much like its the first reason. I don't want it to look like the first reason to anyone so please help me out here for goodness sake.

    I have clearly stated our reasons before and will copy/paste it here again for easy reference.

    "We believe the most important aspect of whether a card pack is designed correctly is the feel of opening card packs in game and whether the process of opening packs creates satisfaction and desire.  We don't believe that a paper analysis of hypothetical numbers by itself can accurately simulate or reflect the in-game experience and that's why we also do thousands of manual pack openings ourselves to validate the experience."

    Honestly this dose not look great on you as they have never changed there drop rates and most the companies that do change there drop rates do post about it telling the player the real numbers not just a vague it's "better" or it's "worse".

    Also, companies change drop rates quite a lot, they may not tell players about it like we do.  And whenever we change the drop rates, we will tell the players and will also try to provide a free way for players to experience the new drop rates and how they feel in-game just like we're doing so now.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Cleanse on March 02, 2016, 01:27:20 AM
    Given the progress Yodo1 has made on the game so far (apart from bugs), I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt and NOT assume this is some nefarious scheme unless evidence is provided to the contrary.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: MerliniX on March 02, 2016, 01:31:35 AM
    Given the progress Yodo1 has made on the game so far (apart from bugs), I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt and NOT assume this is some nefarious scheme unless evidence is provided to the contrary.

    I also do not think it is a nefarious scheme, but in fairness to Dorby, I don't think he thinks its a nefarious scheme either.

    I think he is confused by the apparent dichotomy of the refusal to state what the drop rates are, but the providing of free currency on the PBE as a means to establish what they are regardless, provided someone is willing to spend the time to open 100,000 packs or w/e to get a large enough sample size.

    I also think he is concerned about future impressions of the game by F2P players, whom he has always been a strong advocate on behalf of, and doesn't want unfounded negative impressions to be formed about the game because of what appears to be a more opaque stance in regards to the RNG inherent in the packs being purchased.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: mew28 on March 02, 2016, 01:35:45 AM
    Yet another post not bothering to explain why this was a 'unanimous decision'. You have not been accused of scamming ever, let alone repeatedly, so yes you are being thin skinned about it since you are seeing accusations and insults where there are none. Stop evading the question.

    So for the 4th time now... WHY? WHY WHY WHY WHY? Why wont you simply say what the drop rates are? Is it because you are scamming? Is it for another reason? If its for another reason say what that reason is, because if you don't it looks very much like its the first reason. I don't want it to look like the first reason to anyone so please help me out here for goodness sake.

    I have clearly stated our reasons before and will copy/paste it here again for easy reference.

    "We believe the most important aspect of whether a card pack is designed correctly is the feel of opening card packs in game and whether the process of opening packs creates satisfaction and desire.  We don't believe that a paper analysis of hypothetical numbers by itself can accurately simulate or reflect the in-game experience and that's why we also do thousands of manual pack openings ourselves to validate the experience."

    Honestly I could not care less about the "feels" of what it is like to open 100 packs at time as it is nothing like the "feels" of playing and grinding out for your packs. Often the only thing that keeps me personally going during a long string of bad luck is remembering the % drop rates and how there can be exceptions either way in a brief period of time.

    Honestly this dose not look great on you as they have never changed there drop rates and most the companies that do change there drop rates do post about it telling the player the real numbers not just a vague it's "better" or it's "worse".

    Also, companies change drop rates quite a lot, they may not tell players about it like we do.  And whenever we change the drop rates, we will tell the players and will also try to provide a free way for players to experience the new drop rates and how they feel in-game just like we're doing so now.

    Also those companies are often regarded as shady or dishonest for messing around under the hood with out letting players know.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 01:46:31 AM
    I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

    35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
    40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
    45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
    50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
    60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
    70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
    80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
    100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

    Perfectly fine - good job!

    We've been changing a lot of things around over the past few days so there's multiple versions of reward tables inside our internal wiki and notes on what are "set" and what are still "fluid".  Reward tables for < 35 wins are definitely set for now and 35+ are still fluid (hence the multiple versions).

    We will be looking to have these all "set" before these migrate from PBE to live.

    One more thing that we're looking into for 35+ wins range is the ability to grant premium card rewards based on what's in the players' command zone or draft deck.  is this something that would sound interesting for everyone?  This wouldn't be something that we can do in 1.4.12 as there's some additional design/development/testing work involved but it's definitely something we put on the roadmap for the future if there was enough interest.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 02:03:33 AM
    I have clearly stated our reasons before and will copy/paste it here again for easy reference.

    "We believe the most important aspect of whether a card pack is designed correctly is the feel of opening card packs in game and whether the process of opening packs creates satisfaction and desire.  We don't believe that a paper analysis of hypothetical numbers by itself can accurately simulate or reflect the in-game experience and that's why we also do thousands of manual pack openings ourselves to validate the experience."

    This is obviously some new definition of clearly stated. I cannot find anything in this paragraph that is a reason not to tell people what the drop rates are...

    If I look on the back of a can of beans I expect to be able to see what the ingredients are. Not a label that says
    "We don't believe paper analysis of our ingredients accurately simulates the eating experience, thats why we've eaten thousands of cans of beans ourselves to make sure they are yummy."
    LOL I would have every right to go to the food authorities and say "what is this crap, make them tell me exactly how much protein is in the can".

    So please for the 5th time now, can you clarify why you are hiding the real drop rates from paying customers? Maybe you can have one of the two community managers explain, maybe a fresh set of eyes will be able to word things more clearly. :)
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: RikkiTikki on March 02, 2016, 03:04:40 AM
    Since this discussion has become a little heated, I'll share my two cents on the matter once I finish eating breakfast and get into the office. Reserving this post in the meantime. :P

    As someone who was perfectly fine with the decision to withhold drop rates at the time that this was being internally discussed, it was my understanding (and current stance) that the reason was to encourage players to actually go into the PBE, experience opening a few packs themselves, and tell us about it. If we were to publish the drop rates from the start, I, for one, would be concerned that players would subconsciously be biased towards a certain impression even before opening a pack and feeling the experience for themselves, which is something I would avoid if I wanted someone's honest opinion on the feel and experience of opening packs. Additionally, if I had to guess, I'd imagine that publishing the numbers from the start would have discouraged players from even going on the PBE, opening up some packs, and letting us know how they feel, which is information that is very relevant when designing these packs.

    Another reason (again, from my own view) for not releasing the drop rates is simply because it just didn't come across as something urgent. I mean, when this was being discussed internally, I don't think it once crossed my mind that players needed to know what the exact numbers are, especially considering that players can enter the PBE, get a pretty good estimate of the drop rate from opening packs, and compile their individual data with others (which something ORISOLVE is already doing). Plus, it’s another incentive to get people involved in checking out the PBE! :D If you’d like to find out more about the changes that we plan on implementing, you can certainly do so in the PBE as we’ve given you enough tools to explore things for yourself.

    So, bottom line, I never saw the decision to withhold the drop rates as something that would be "suspicious", it was just something I thought wasn't super pressing. IMO, I would just want players to open up packs since what's important for the Penta Packs right now is the feel and experience. Of course, this is just ol' RikkiTikki's impression of the matter so don't know if it's going to drastically change people's opinions.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 03:42:14 AM
    Would appreciate it Rikki :)

    Also +1 to what Merlin said about the things and stuff
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Klassick on March 02, 2016, 04:12:11 AM
    No timing for quoting you now, Adorabear, sorry about... but, let's go! :D

    Ok, if you look on the back of some product, it is fine to expect to see what are its ingredients.

    Coca-Cola ingredients, for example, are Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup, caramel color, phosphoric acid, natural flavors and caffeine.

    But, the secret recipe they use to combine those ingredients or, the list of ‘secret’ ingredients (used to give the drink it’s unique flavour), is (was?) a secret. More than that, it is a part of Coca-Cola publicity and marketing.

    The reason why this formula is a secret is because other people could obtain an economic advantage over competitors (or customers) if they have it.

    Back to our reality, I am certain that IW Team spent many hours of hard work to come to a good 'formula' of droprates.

    Informations like that has value because it confers some sort of economic benefit to its holders.

    Just saying how it works is the same of giving away, for free, some of the company's intangible assets.

    These kind of information are a part of the invisible component of the IW intellectual property.

    It would be harmful to reveal this info for many different reasons... just to give an example, if the IW playerbase has a very good acceptance of the droprates of the packs, this would became an intangible asset that would enable IW to distinguish itself from competitors.

    And... if I was one of the IW competitors, I would love to know how they did it (the formula).

    So, in a world full of copycat competitors, it is a good idea to hide everything that enable a company to distinguish itself from the others.

    It is not about being more or less transparent, it is a matter of not being dumb.

    As far as I can see, IW Team is, for sure, giving us ways to make informed decisions here.

    I could even say that they are being more transparent than they should, because most of the players don't really know what they want... but this is whole different story.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 04:59:25 AM
    Coca-Cola ingredients, for example, are Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup, caramel color, phosphoric acid, natural flavors and caffeine.

    But, the secret recipe they use to combine those ingredients or, the list of ‘secret’ ingredients (used to give the drink it’s unique flavour), is (was?) a secret. More than that, it is a part of Coca-Cola publicity and marketing.

    The reason why this formula is a secret is because other people could obtain an economic advantage over competitors (or customers) if they have it.

    Back to our reality, I am certain that IW Team spent many hours of hard work to come to a good 'formula' of droprates.

    Informations like that has value because it confers some sort of economic benefit to its holders.

    Just saying how it works is the same of giving away, for free, some of the company's intangible assets.

    These kind of information are a part of the invisible component of the IW intellectual property.

    It would be harmful to reveal this info for many different reasons... just to give an example, if the IW playerbase has a very good acceptance of the droprates of the packs, this would became an intangible asset that would enable IW to distinguish itself from competitors.

    And... if I was one of the IW competitors, I would love to know how they did it (the formula).

    The flaw in your analogy is that the droprates are not a secret recipe they are quantities of ingredients. Specific details on droprates do not give IW its flavor and are in no way the main feature of the game like the taste of coke is.

    You also just said this which I find really interesting.
    "Informations like that has value because it confers some sort of economic benefit to its holders."
    What is this benefit that you keep evoking? Its not enough to say 'some sort' because no one can identify a single ACTUAL benefit.

    Besides you don't think 'competitors' wanting to steal Lightmares uber successful droprate magic formula cant just look at Orisolves thread and work out the formula to the nearest decimal themselves?
    To continue my can of beans analogy Lightmare has basically said
    "No you cant know exactly how much protein is in a can of beans because thats a secret BUT heres a free ticket to a testing lab where you can test our cans of beans and see how much protein it has on average." So its clearly not a secret so WHY? Just write it on the label.

    Of course you wouldn't write it on the label if you didn't want people to know whats supposed to be in it so they cant make an informed decision. Only people who aren't proud of their product do that. If Lightmare were proud of the droprates in their packs they would say
    "Look here are our packs and here are our droprates isnt it awesome buy our packs."
    instead we get
    "Here are our packs, we refuse to tell you what the droprates are and we are going to change them whenever we like without telling you by how much"

    Which seems transparent and honest and proud to you and which seems sneaky and underhanded? I do not want this game to have a reputation for seeming sneaking and underhanded! If the developers aren't scammers ALL THE MORE REASON to not appear as though they are scammers.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: NatoPotato on March 02, 2016, 05:50:57 AM
    Since the pack size went down to 5 it would be faster (and probably cooler?) to be able to open 3 packs at a time (maybe have an 'open 3' button which just grabs your 3 oldest penta packs) and since rares are 'less rare' maybe update the 'Show (un)commons' button to have a Rares stage? Essentially if you spam the button anything left unflipped is something greater than the guarantee.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Symphony on March 02, 2016, 06:04:36 AM
    Quote
    Coca-Cola ingredients, for example, are Carbonated water, high fructose corn syrup, caramel color, phosphoric acid, natural flavors and caffeine.

    But, the secret recipe they use to combine those ingredients or, the list of ‘secret’ ingredients (used to give the drink it’s unique flavour), is (was?) a secret. More than that, it is a part of Coca-Cola publicity and marketing.
    Just feel like I need to chime in on this as an engineer-to-be. This is, in the great majority of cases not true. Very, very few steps of some production lines (of a selective type of commodities) are kept secret and you can't, for no reason, include a 'secret' ingredient and not have it displayed on your label.

    But on topic (or off?), I still fully support Adora. It make zero sense to not give us the numbers and at the same time all the means to get a very close approximation to it. The whole 'feel of the packs' sound as crappy as the whole hearthstone 'soul of the card' thing. We get that you simply don't want to disclose this information because it transforms 'packs' into 'percentages', but that's no way enough of a reason not to.
    There is literally no gain for the game if you don't release this info, but there are troubling risks of suspicion if that's the case.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: OneTwo on March 02, 2016, 07:29:35 AM
    I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

    35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
    40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
    45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
    50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
    60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
    70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
    80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
    100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

    Perfectly fine - good job!

    We've been changing a lot of things around over the past few days so there's multiple versions of reward tables inside our internal wiki and notes on what are "set" and what are still "fluid".  Reward tables for < 35 wins are definitely set for now and 35+ are still fluid (hence the multiple versions).

    We will be looking to have these all "set" before these migrate from PBE to live.

    One more thing that we're looking into for 35+ wins range is the ability to grant premium card rewards based on what's in the players' command zone or draft deck.  is this something that would sound interesting for everyone?  This wouldn't be something that we can do in 1.4.12 as there's some additional design/development/testing work involved but it's definitely something we put on the roadmap for the future if there was enough interest.

    Have to retract my voting.

    The table you had before is far more accurate to the current Premium dropchances in the Penta Packs. Or maybe i should say, even the table before would be too generous in comparison of the Packs, which some player actually rly buy for USD for the chance of premiums.

    I think you have to make up your mind what u rly want. But nerfing one side to the ground while boosting the other side just feels half baked, and doesnt fit to the project of creating a healthy and balanced Premium Market.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: ES [BoD] on March 02, 2016, 08:08:37 AM
    I just dug through the other 35+ wins rewards table that we been playing with internally and it looked like this.  Better or too rich?

    35   Gold Rare + Legendary + Rare
    40   Gold Rare + Legendary + Epic
    45   Gold Rare + Legendary + Legendary
    50   Gold Epic + Legendary + Legendary
    60   Gold Legendary + Legendary + Legendary
    70   Infinity Rare + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary
    80   Infinity Epic + Gold Legendary  + Gold Legendary 
    100   Infinity Legendary + Gold Legendary + Gold Legendary

    Perfectly fine - good job!

    We've been changing a lot of things around over the past few days so there's multiple versions of reward tables inside our internal wiki and notes on what are "set" and what are still "fluid".  Reward tables for < 35 wins are definitely set for now and 35+ are still fluid (hence the multiple versions).

    We will be looking to have these all "set" before these migrate from PBE to live.

    One more thing that we're looking into for 35+ wins range is the ability to grant premium card rewards based on what's in the players' command zone or draft deck.  is this something that would sound interesting for everyone?  This wouldn't be something that we can do in 1.4.12 as there's some additional design/development/testing work involved but it's definitely something we put on the roadmap for the future if there was enough interest.

    Have to retract my voting.

    The table you had before is far more accurate to the current Premium dropchances in the Penta Packs. Or maybe i should say, even the table before would be too generous in comparison of the Packs, which some player actually rly buy for USD for the chance of premiums.

    I think you have to make up your mind what u rly want. But nerfing one side to the ground while boosting the other side just feels half baked, and doesnt fit to the project of creating a healthy and balanced Premium Market.

    I think this table is perfectly find the way it is presented now.
    And definately worth the time, effort and IP/LP I would spend in future rift runs.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: OneTwo on March 02, 2016, 08:25:59 AM
    I think this table is perfectly find the way it is presented now.
    And definately worth the time, effort and LP I would spend in future rift runs.

    So you will spend more USD on the game, cause rift runs gives you good rewards?

    Im just asking, cause right now i only know some guys spending USD on rift runs for rerolling the 40 cards over and over again, cause they think it will provide them more luck than buying packs.

    Never heared that the ppl with consistant good runs have to spend USD on the runs at all, that would change my insight of the game drastically.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: ORISOLVE on March 02, 2016, 08:33:42 AM
    Don't listen to ES, he spends the LP he earns from tournaments.  ::)
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Wayfinder1026 on March 02, 2016, 09:15:36 AM
    Personally, I don't feel scammed because they won't tell the exact % of the packs. Honestly I get why some would be upset that you aren't disclosing those numbers because you're paying real money and you want real proof that the money you're spending is worth it. That said, I don't think they would be trying to scam us or go through the trouble of letting us know that drop rates are being changed just to leave it alone. Why say anything in the first place if that was their plan?

    I don't think knowing the exact numbers will really change anything. I think a % increase from old to new would be more useful to let us know the difference in chances to get more. But, the percent drop has nothing to do with why they changed the packs. The way I see it, they changed them to make it easier to select a pack, decrease the amount of card flow in the economy, and stabilize the economy. The drop rates I think, have been improved to help balance things out with the lower card amounts in the packs. SO, knowing this, then it wouldn't be in their best interest to keep the percentages low.

    They're saying that the percentages for ALL packs have been improved. Not just pay packs. The pay packs are there because they make it easier for newer players. They also hinted that premium packs were in the works for discussion so people buying packs for premiums can spend their money then.

    Sorry for any reiterations of things or poor grammar. It's 4 am and I'm crazy tired. But I just had to join the conversation and put my two cents in. :D
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: ES [BoD] on March 02, 2016, 09:28:06 AM
    I think this table is perfectly find the way it is presented now.
    And definately worth the time, effort and LP I would spend in future rift runs.

    So you will spend more USD on the game, cause rift runs gives you good rewards?

    Im just asking, cause right now i only know some guys spending USD on rift runs for rerolling the 40 cards over and over again, cause they think it will provide them more luck than buying packs.

    Never heared that the ppl with consistant good runs have to spend USD on the runs at all, that would change my insight of the game drastically.

    Yea, sometimes i would spend LP when im out of IP to reroll my options, I usually do that 4-5 times before I start a run to get better options, Iv'e played enough rift runs to see that some decks won't break 15win+ or so for instance: adorable monkey, echo on the battle field,blazing swarmer as being the commanders.
    So at times like these i would just abandon the deck and try again.

    With that being said, you don't have to spend LP to get good results in rift runs, USD can't change your skill and me spending some LP is just a recent occurance (last week or so).

    But yea, with 2k for each reroll i would probably spend some LP or just do some runs with bad decks, LP is there to save time as i see it, to offer you a chance to reroll instead of running with a weak/slow deck and i think 2k will drain my IP faster, And i have absolutely no problem with that if the rewards will be adjusted to my entry fee.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 10:54:18 AM
    Since this discussion has become a little heated, I'll share my two cents on the matter once I finish eating breakfast and get into the office. Reserving this post in the meantime. :P

    At this point RikkiTikki's breakfast has taken 8 hours...
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Chaz8591 on March 02, 2016, 10:56:42 AM
    Since this discussion has become a little heated, I'll share my two cents on the matter once I finish eating breakfast and get into the office. Reserving this post in the meantime. :P

    At this point RikkiTikki's breakfast has taken 8 hours...

    Maybe he has to fly into Australia. Geesh Dora, be sensitive.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: watchmedie on March 02, 2016, 10:59:59 AM
    i think the bear needs a hug xD
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: RikkiTikki on March 02, 2016, 11:00:49 AM
    Since this discussion has become a little heated, I'll share my two cents on the matter once I finish eating breakfast and get into the office. Reserving this post in the meantime. :P

    At this point RikkiTikki's breakfast has taken 8 hours...

    Lol sorry guys. Meant to get to it a while ago, other stuff happened, finally did it. >.<
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 11:17:59 AM
    As long as the reward rarity gets downgraded on premiums I am going to have problem with the system

    I went through another review of the tables and I think what you said makes a lot of sense so I've made some revisions to the 35+ rewards so that they always continue to get better as a player racks up more wins.  I'm proposing this table to the product team for review and discussion so these are not final but as I mentioned before, the RR reward tables will be locked in before the current patch goes live.

    we're spending more time reviewing the 35+ reward levels because win rates at these levels are extremely hard to achieve and we feel that the rewards should feel significant when a player is able to achieve these win rates.  Especially win counts of 60+ which are challenging for even the best players in the game to replicate on a frequent basis.

    35      Legendary + Epic + Epic + Gold Common
    40   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Uncommon
    45   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Rare  
    50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic  
    60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary
    70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare
    80   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Epic
    100   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Legendary


    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: watchmedie on March 02, 2016, 11:23:08 AM
    35      Legendary + Epic + Epic + Gold Common
    40   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Uncommon

    have you considered getting rid of the leg+epic+epic?
    it seems to much and w/e you add after that seems underwhelming.

    edit: 2 legs @ 40 wow was speed reading through that sorry.

    seems to much again lol but i will be super happy with this system.

    p.s FEELS GOOD MAN!

    after some thinking.
    introduce gold much sooner into the check points and push leg+epic+epic/ leg+leg
    a bit up.
    but as i said i am very hyped for 2 legs @ 40.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 11:24:20 AM
    Since this discussion has become a little heated, I'll share my two cents on the matter once I finish eating breakfast and get into the office. Reserving this post in the meantime. :P

    At this point RikkiTikki's breakfast has taken 8 hours...

    Lol sorry guys. Meant to get to it a while ago, other stuff happened, finally did it. >.<

    Im just saying maybe you are secretly a fellow bear. As a bear my breakfast can often take all day due to the fact there are so many things to eat :P
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: InvertedEye on March 02, 2016, 11:30:50 AM
    As long as the reward rarity gets downgraded on premiums I am going to have problem with the system

    I went through another review of the tables and I think what you said makes a lot of sense so I've made some revisions to the 35+ rewards so that they always continue to get better as a player racks up more wins.  I'm proposing this table to the product team for review and discussion so these are not final but as I mentioned before, the RR reward tables will be locked in before the current patch goes live.

    we're spending more time reviewing the 35+ reward levels because win rates at these levels are extremely hard to achieve and we feel that the rewards should feel significant when a player is able to achieve these win rates.  Especially win counts of 60+ which are challenging for even the best players in the game to replicate on a frequent basis.

    35      Legendary + Epic + Epic + Gold Common
    40   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Uncommon
    45   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Rare 
    50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic 
    60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary
    70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare
    80   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Epic
    100   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Legendary

    I really appreciate that you took my feedback into account, it would have been really depressing to have to concede knowing I could have gone further. 
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Goldschuss on March 02, 2016, 11:56:58 AM
    Hey Adora I think after Rikkis Statement, I have an idea as to why. My post might just be the tl;dr version of rikkis post but I have more to add to it.

    You argue that they could tell us the drop rates straight away, when we have all means to test them on the pbe right?

    Well you have it backwards. It's actually because that we can test out the droprates is why they won't tell us.
    If we didn't have access to the pbe, then it would make sense to tell us their rates.
    They don't want us to know (for now) a number because they want to know how it feels! the numbers don't even matter at this point, because it just needs to feel well.
    Numbers just drive everyone into full statistic mode

    Basically, it's just all there for testing purposes, hence why it would make more sense to publish them some time later, after the "feeling" is done.

    However if drop rates are still not being disclosed later on, then that would bring me to another reason.
    The drop rates might just not be a simple number. There could be a more complicated formular, heck a whole algorythm even, which in turn would allow the players to gamble the system if they knew.

    And if my theory is correct, we need to revise testing. Everyone bought 100 packs at once. However depending on the mechanism, results could vary if someone bought 5x 20 packs and opens them all on different times.
    We have a lot more testing to do guys.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 12:43:04 PM
    Since this discussion has become a little heated, I'll share my two cents on the matter once I finish eating breakfast and get into the office. Reserving this post in the meantime. :P

    As someone who was perfectly fine with the decision to withhold drop rates at the time that this was being internally discussed, it was my understanding (and current stance) that the reason was to encourage players to actually go into the PBE, experience opening a few packs themselves, and tell us about it. If we were to publish the drop rates from the start, I, for one, would be concerned that players would subconsciously be biased towards a certain impression even before opening a pack and feeling the experience for themselves, which is something I would avoid if I wanted someone's honest opinion on the feel and experience of opening packs. Additionally, if I had to guess, I'd imagine that publishing the numbers from the start would have discouraged players from even going on the PBE, opening up some packs, and letting us know how they feel, which is information that is very relevant when designing these packs.

    Another reason (again, from my own view) for not releasing the drop rates is simply because it just didn't come across as something urgent. I mean, when this was being discussed internally, I don't think it once crossed my mind that players needed to know what the exact numbers are, especially considering that players can enter the PBE, get a pretty good estimate of the drop rate from opening packs, and compile their individual data with others (which something ORISOLVE is already doing). Plus, it’s another incentive to get people involved in checking out the PBE! :D If you’d like to find out more about the changes that we plan on implementing, you can certainly do so in the PBE as we’ve given you enough tools to explore things for yourself.

    So, bottom line, I never saw the decision to withhold the drop rates as something that would be "suspicious", it was just something I thought wasn't super pressing. IMO, I would just want players to open up packs since what's important for the Penta Packs right now is the feel and experience. Of course, this is just ol' RikkiTikki's impression of the matter so don't know if it's going to drastically change people's opinions.

    Ok so a couple of good points thanks for sharing Rikki
    To your first paragraph. Interesting Crestmoor said absolutely nothing about that so it seems you guys aren't on the same page. Also there would be no reason not to release the official droprates later on after testing, perhaps with the final patch notes. The players could test the pack opening experience in an unbiased way on the test server you could make whatever adjustments you wanted and then once the real product goes live you could easily inform players properly. So this does not explain Crestmoors 'blunt' response of 'not now not ever'.

    As to your second point, sure its not urgent but again that doesn't warrant the response we got from Crestmoor at all. If it simply wasn't urgent I would obviously say something along the lines of "Of course we'd like players to test out the drop rates on PBE in an unbiased way and once the real packs go live we will gladly inform players of the accurate drop rate figures and any future adjustments."
    That would be helpful, honest and transparent but unfortunately that was the complete opposite of the response given so far.
    The other thing about it not being urgent is that it also takes no time. Like it involves typing a couple of lines of text. So it doesn't really matter if its urgent or not if it could be done in seconds. Like literally within seconds of reading this sentence you could type out the droprates its that easy.

    So if those are the only two reasons then I trust that you will actually be releasing the exact droprates afterall sometime in the next couple weeks once youve gathered your feedback.



    I should add a couple things.
    1. You dont need to trick us into testing stuff for you. If you wanted a bunch of packs opened and feedback on the experience you could have just asked. I know you are new and IW is not a typical community but we actually CARE about this game and would be happy to help test and open packs and do anything we can to help. There is absolutely no need to withhold information from us in an attempt to trick us into carrying out testing of new features and changes.

    2. I think the idea that players opening hundreds of packs on the test server for free and opening cards that they will never get to use is not going to give you any feed back on the pack opening experience. Opening 100 packs for free is going to be a very different experience than opening 20 packs that you paid good money for. There are a huge amount of biases and thought patterns that come into play psychologically when you pay for something vs when its free. So I think feedback on the pack opening experience would be pretty flawed apart from whether it has bugs or not. However like I said in point number 1 this community is happy to help where-ever they can and thats rare for an online game community.

    Damn look at me getting all em-passioned and sappy! I need to brb into a game and get back to ripping arms and legs off before I get too soft and emotional :P
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 01:45:13 PM
    However if drop rates are still not being disclosed later on, then that would bring me to another reason.
    The drop rates might just not be a simple number. There could be a more complicated formular, heck a whole algorythm even, which in turn would allow the players to gamble the system if they knew.

    And if my theory is correct, we need to revise testing. Everyone bought 100 packs at once. However depending on the mechanism, results could vary if someone bought 5x 20 packs and opens them all on different times.
    We have a lot more testing to do guys.

    your theory is actually correct.  The formula is much more complex than a simple set of drop rates per pack.  In order to see the "actual drop rates" that the formula produces, we ourselves run simulations of 10's of thousands of packs, then go back to tune different parameters in the formula until we get the desired effect of drop rates for large sample sizes of pack openings.

    We think that the results and experience of what the formula produces is more important feedback to us than the formula & parameters themselves.

    On a separate note, the formula does not differentiate between how many packs you purchase, how you open them or when you open them so someone who buys 10 packs and opens them immediately vs someone who buys 5 x 20 packs and opens them over 3 days will end up producing the same drop rates as the sample size gets large enough.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 02:38:23 PM
    Just adding a reply to try to put Adorabear and my heated discussions on this thread into some context (hopefully).

    Firstly, I have the utmost respect for Adorabear as a player.  His skill in deck building and in-game strategy is legendary and I wouldn't even attempt to get into a debate with him when it comes to deck building or game play strategy.

    That said, both of us have very strong opinions about other aspects of the game.  It could be on game design, it could be on when and how much to share about content and gameplay mechanics that we're working on and everytime we have a difference of opinions on these topics, he and I seem to get into an endless loop that can't be resolved regardless of who's right or whose wrong (or maybe we're both wrong and there is a better way that neither of us has thought of).

    Personally I think that many of the things that Adorabear does for the community and the game in general is extremely valuable and in cases where he posts something that I agree with, I'll try to acknowledge the fact and say we'll spend more time thinking it through.  Eg.  Adorabear told us to publish the full rift run reward tables to save players time and after thinking through it, we decided yea why not.  He suggested the wager based mechanics for Rift Runs and we also thought that it was a great idea and this is something that we're going to spend a lot more time designing and thinking about.

    So @Adorabear, I still love you even when I don't always agree with you.  I promise to try to stop rubbing a bear the wrong way if you promise to stop forcing me to do things that I don't want to do. :P  In those cases, we can simply agree to disagree and then move on to other areas that make the game better.
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: tsumoura on March 02, 2016, 03:18:48 PM

    • The price for each of the faction Penta Packs will be set at a significantly higher price of 450LP and will not be available via IP purchase. Faction Penta Packs cost more because they allow players to draw from a much smaller pool of faction targeted cards, allowing you to more easily acquire cards to complete a specific deck/combo.

    RikkiTikki

    Hi, I'm new. I just created this forum account to post here. I dont have many cards and I was actively farming /grinding games in order to get more cards from a specific faction group, the others dont interest me much (or i've fallen too far down 1 path to think about the others yet :D).

    The above information makes me very sad tbh. Over the course of the last 3 weeks I must have played at least 750 games in my desire to reach "not the best, but at least an interesting deck using x faction" and I was fine playing more, knowing the rarity of the faction based boosters. I'm honestly no good at trading... shy LOL -_-.

    Me: "hi"
    trade chat: "wtt bizillion list of cards u dont know about"
    Me: "... oh okay... bye"

    with the faction based boosters now being RESTRICTED to cash only, I feel that my goal isn't much reachable at the moment and that there isn't much reason to continue playing if that is the case. I'm pretty lenient btw, once about every 8 games a card will freeze on my display delaying me 1/2 rounds and costing me a game, every 3rdish game someone is disconnected 3+ times a match (sometimes me, while my internet connection is fine), and etc, but those are just glitches I can overlook with a goal in mind.

    Idk, I'm new like i said, so its fine if you ignore me or my 2 cent but I wanted to at least offer my perspective on the subject. Ps its not that hard for us new people to learn which boosters do what, you have an amazing wikia dedicated just to that ^_^!

    Ps: I'm too new to even know much about the startrek boosters and the loss of the ability to buy them, so I am not happy or sad of this because how can I miss something I never had lol.

    EDIT: Just so its clear, even in spite of the errors and stuffs, I do enjoy Infinity Wars much. But I feel like the gap to "catch up" to people who aren't newbs, is crazy big and even larger now :C
    [/list]
    Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
    Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 03:28:58 PM

      • The price for each of the faction Penta Packs will be set at a significantly higher price of 450LP and will not be available via IP purchase. Faction Penta Packs cost more because they allow players to draw from a much smaller pool of faction targeted cards, allowing you to more easily acquire cards to complete a specific deck/combo.

      RikkiTikki

      Hi, I'm new. I just created this forum account to post here. I dont have many cards and I was actively farming /grinding games in order to get more cards from a specific faction group, the others dont interest me much (or i've fallen too far down 1 path to think about the others yet :D).

      The above information makes me very sad tbh. Over the course of the last 3 weeks I must have played at least 750 games in my desire to reach "not the best, but at least an interesting deck using x faction" and I was fine playing more, knowing the rarity of the faction based boosters. I'm honestly no good at trading... shy LOL -_-.

      Me: "hi"
      trade chat: "wtt bizillion list of cards u dont know about"
      Me: "... oh okay... bye"

      with the faction based boosters now being RESTRICTED to cash only, I feel that my goal isn't much reachable at the moment and that there isn't much reason to continue playing if that is the case. I'm pretty lenient btw, once about every 8 games a card will freeze on my display delaying me 1/2 rounds and costing me a game, every 3rdish game someone is disconnected 3+ times a match (sometimes me, while my internet connection is fine), and etc, but those are just glitches I can overlook with a goal in mind.

      Idk, I'm new like i said, so its fine if you ignore me or my 2 cent but I wanted to at least offer my perspective on the subject. Ps its not that hard for us new people to learn which boosters do what, you have an amazing wikia dedicated just to that ^_^!

      Ps: I'm too new to even know much about the startrek boosters and the loss of the ability to buy them, so I am not happy or sad of this because how can I miss something I never had lol.

      EDIT: Just so its clear, even in spite of the errors and stuffs, I do enjoy Infinity Wars much. But I feel like the gap to "catch up" to people who aren't newbs, is crazy big and even larger now :C
      [/list]

      Improving the new player experience is a big part of what we're working on now so don't quit yet. :)

      we are busily revamping areas of the game that have an impact on new player experience as we speak including a revision of level up bonuses, daily login rewards, more PVE campaign missions that will include full deck rewards, a fixed deck arena PVP mode that lets you play with pre-built decks and lots more.  Just give us a bit more time to get all this stuff done.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: tsumoura on March 02, 2016, 03:43:08 PM
      Improving the new player experience is a big part of what we're working on now so don't quit yet. :)

      we are busily revamping areas of the game that have an impact on new player experience as we speak including a revision of level up bonuses, daily login rewards, more PVE campaign missions that will include full deck rewards, a fixed deck arena PVP mode that lets you play with pre-built decks and lots more.  Just give us a bit more time to get all this stuff done.

      Since I've joined you've removed the "good"? daily rewards (meaning I can't narrow the gap between being new and those who have good cards as fast) and now you're removing the faction based boosters for new players. I admit I dont understand the reasonings behind the actions and I'm not saying they aren't warrented either. However I do feel like these two actions are very counter productive to "improving the new player experience". When I first joined I was so happy to tell my friend OMG I REACHED THE FIFTH DAY! and we'd stream the opening of whatever reward it was. Well we dont do that anymore... He lost interest in the game shortly after that patch. where before he'd at least login for the daily rewards and to play a few with me (and get pew pewed!). Anyways I'm not sure where i'm going with this cause I dont want to be negative but I feel like you should know, at least for me, I haven't seen much "better things" since I joined. Still I like your community, the card art (wish you had more flavortext :D) and the way the games word is very interesting.

      my current prespective as a new player right now is:

      Normal mode: MY FAVE ^_^ love the lp rewards
      Ranked mode: What's the point... no lp rewards can't reach new cards this way
      Draft mode: :C they always beat me 3 in a row :C (^_^ I try though!)
      Premade Bots: want more ai battles so i can practice, like just more decks the AI can use and I can play vs so I can learn the game more
      Campaign: What Campaign...>.>


      Anyways thanks for replying...
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 03:56:32 PM
      Improving the new player experience is a big part of what we're working on now so don't quit yet. :)

      we are busily revamping areas of the game that have an impact on new player experience as we speak including a revision of level up bonuses, daily login rewards, more PVE campaign missions that will include full deck rewards, a fixed deck arena PVP mode that lets you play with pre-built decks and lots more.  Just give us a bit more time to get all this stuff done.

      Since I've joined you've removed the "good"? daily rewards (meaning I can't narrow the gap between being new and those who have good cards as fast) and now you're removing the faction based boosters for new players. I admit I dont understand the reasonings behind the actions and I'm not saying they aren't warrented either. However I do feel like these two actions are very counter productive to "improving the new player experience". When I first joined I was so happy to tell my friend OMG I REACHED THE FIFTH DAY! and we'd stream the opening of whatever reward it was. Well we dont do that anymore... He lost interest in the game shortly after that patch. where before he'd at least login for the daily rewards and to play a few with me (and get pew pewed!). Anyways I'm not sure where i'm going with this cause I dont want to be negative but I feel like you should know, at least for me, I haven't seen much "better things" since I joined. Still I like your community, the card art (wish you had more flavortext :D) and the way the games word is very interesting.

      my current prespective as a new player right now is:

      Normal mode: MY FAVE ^_^ love the lp rewards
      Ranked mode: What's the point... no lp rewards can't reach new cards this way
      Draft mode: :C they always beat me 3 in a row :C (^_^ I try though!)
      Premade Bots: want more ai battles so i can practice, like just more decks the AI can use and I can play vs so I can learn the game more
      Campaign: What Campaign...>.>


      Anyways thanks for replying...

      we'll be re-injecting more stuff into daily rewards again very very soon.  we had to remove a lot of stuff before to prevent exploits and now we are adding more stuff back in that will make the experience more rewarding again but hopefully in a way that is less exploitable.  We are revising up rewards for each of the 5 days and you'll start seeing stuff like the IP/XP boosters and free Penta Packs in the daily rewards soon.

      New PVE campaign missions are coming.  We have about 30 missions that have been coded already, we are in the process of redoing the entire PVE campaign map, UI/UX because we felt the existing one was not doing a good job.  These new missions will also come with free deck rewards for completion of key missions.

      As to draft mode, practice makes perfect and the rewards can be very significant.  I remember when I use to get 3 straight losses when I first got started as well but you'll get better.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Yxunomei on March 02, 2016, 04:25:24 PM
      Interesting. Is this campaign update coming with new story element? Is there any plan to improve the AI?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Klassick on March 02, 2016, 04:39:09 PM
      The flaw in your analogy is that the droprates are not a secret recipe they are quantities of ingredients. Specific details on droprates do not give IW its flavor and are in no way the main feature of the game like the taste of coke is.

      You also just said this which I find really interesting.
      "Informations like that has value because it confers some sort of economic benefit to its holders."
      What is this benefit that you keep evoking? Its not enough to say 'some sort' because no one can identify a single ACTUAL benefit.

      Besides you don't think 'competitors' wanting to steal Lightmares uber successful droprate magic formula cant just look at Orisolves thread and work out the formula to the nearest decimal themselves?
      To continue my can of beans analogy Lightmare has basically said
      "No you cant know exactly how much protein is in a can of beans because thats a secret BUT heres a free ticket to a testing lab where you can test our cans of beans and see how much protein it has on average." So its clearly not a secret so WHY? Just write it on the label.

      Of course you wouldn't write it on the label if you didn't want people to know whats supposed to be in it so they cant make an informed decision. Only people who aren't proud of their product do that. If Lightmare were proud of the droprates in their packs they would say
      "Look here are our packs and here are our droprates isnt it awesome buy our packs."
      instead we get
      "Here are our packs, we refuse to tell you what the droprates are and we are going to change them whenever we like without telling you by how much"

      Which seems transparent and honest and proud to you and which seems sneaky and underhanded? I do not want this game to have a reputation for seeming sneaking and underhanded! If the developers aren't scammers ALL THE MORE REASON to not appear as though they are scammers.

      Well... in fact, we do disagree here.

      If you consider the drop rates being the "quantities of the ingredients", we are not at the same boat.

      But, seeing what IW Team has said here, I must say that... I even disagree with them too! haha

      And, ok, I understand your (and Symphony) will to see the community having more ways to have an "informed decision" about the packs but, I try too to see the things from the commercial point of view, so, let's go:

      When a company decides to keep something from being reproduced or copied they keep their "formula"... secret.

      The drop rates are the result of a formula. This formula, for sure, is something complex that came from hours of hard work. If someone have the result of your formula and/or can see parts of it, they have better chances to understand how and why you get to that formula, so, they can imagine, amoung others, what were the mistakes you made, the paths you did not take... and that allows them to design around you.

      How does this fit in to this discussion? Glad you ask  ;D

      If IW Team openly post aspects of their game mechanics (drop rates are one of them), they can be simply giving for free some of their market share, because others would use this info to fix their own products and improve them.

      That way, I see lots of benefits in just keeping the exact drop rates a secret and, I can say that no sane company gives away their secrets so that their competitors can beat them at their own game (by the way, other much bigger companies did not reveal their games drop rates, and that is the reason why).

      And we must consider too that talking about software, that are many aspects of building games that can't be reliably protected.

      That way... the chances of the public getting all the info about a formula (and even parts of it) are very, very low, simply because companies has guys like me (meaning someone who works with their Intellectual Property) telling them to "not say that", or "don't publish that", because "it would be easy to use that to design around us", for example.

      Ok, I know this way of thinking has some flaws, much because consumers start to speculate when they did not have the info they want...

      But, my bear friend, this kind of thing that is used for the marketing department exactly to motivate several people to start building data tables were they should - eventually - get the desired information.

      This was/is our case, by the way... Idk if IW Team used this 'strategy' but, if they do, they were very, very clever and they have people inside that know what they are doing.

      Talking about business aspects, but that is just my opinion, I do consider even what Orisolve is doing something already harmful to the IW Team and, if I were the IW Intellectual Property guy, I would, maybe, tell the CM's to shut down threads like this one...  ::)

      BUT, as we can see, they are not doing anything about it, they do not care much that we are getting nearly exact numbers of drop rates and are even willing to tell what those drop rates are...

      That said, I repeat, I strongly disagree that IW Team is "lacking" transparency and I believe that not publishing drop rates at all is very far away to "sounds like a straight up scam".

      That's the point.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 04:39:21 PM
      Interesting. Is this campaign update coming with new story element? Is there any plan to improve the AI?

      Yea, the campaign update has an expanded storyline.  Still not as comprehensive as we'd like to eventually take it but one step at a time I guess.

      AI is on the roadmap but prioritized lower at this point in time, mainly because there's a lot of important stuff queued in front of it.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: zekses on March 02, 2016, 04:51:32 PM
      Crestmoor, can we pls have the campaign translation sheet in advance for thsoe who are doing localizations ?:)  Cause atm it is unclear what exactly should be localized in provided spreadsheets aside from interface and cards. It seems like there is a lot of leftover stuff from previous 2 iterations of campaign.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 02, 2016, 04:57:59 PM
      Talking about business aspects, but that is just my opinion, I do consider even what Orisolve is doing something already harmful to the IW Team and, if I were the IW Intellectual Property guy, I would, maybe, tell the CM's to shut down threads like this one...  ::)

      BUT, as we can see, they are not doing anything about it, they do not care much that we are getting nearly exact numbers of drop rates and are even willing to tell what those drop rates are...

      That said, I repeat, I strongly disagree that IW Team is "lacking" transparency and I believe that not publishing drop rates at all is very far away to "sounds like a straight up scam".

      That's the point.

      My silence can be bought. ;D
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 05:03:34 PM
      Crestmoor, can we pls have the campaign translation sheet in advance for thsoe who are doing localizations ?:)  Cause atm it is unclear what exactly should be localized in provided spreadsheets aside from interface and cards. It seems like there is a lot of leftover stuff from previous 2 iterations of campaign.

      err, yea.  the  missions are coded but the storyline/narrative is not finalized.  I'll have Rikki get them to you all as soon as the English versions of the storyline/narrative are finalized.

      thanks for the help with translations
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Rawonall on March 02, 2016, 05:11:38 PM
      The drop rates are the result of a formula. This formula, for sure, is something complex that came from hours of hard work.

      I don't think we players care about the formula. We just care about the results.

      If they did the coding right (as I explained in the other thread), they could give a very honest answer to the question "What are the odds of getting a rare/epic/legendary in a pack?", because they'd know the exact answer and there would be no way to disprove it.

      If the pack opening algorithm was based on any card being generated on the fly by a pseudo-random algorithm, then they have a perfectly understandable  reason to avoid providing an answer: they can't be sure that data would reflect their projected odds, because the algorithm could generate weird results, and they sure don't want people to find out before they do (by analyzing data after a great amount of packs have been opened) and have a chance to eventually fix it.

      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 02, 2016, 05:14:51 PM

      My silence can be bought. ;D

      I don't have a billion dollars :'(
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 02, 2016, 05:24:29 PM

      I don't have a billion dollars :'(

      Only ideas are worth a billion dollars.  ;)

      Naw, I am a reasonable person.

      The formula would be:
      Minimum Wage * Hours Spent * 2 (Silence Cost) * 1.5 (To pay those who have helped me) = Total Cost

      (Minimum Wage may be replaced with Two Tier 1 Legendaries)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Benionin on March 02, 2016, 05:44:58 PM
      Yea, the campaign update has an expanded storyline.  Still not as comprehensive as we'd like to eventually take it but one step at a time I guess.

      I really hope there won't be any crazy retcons to the lore. Cause, you know, lore is my thing. I've written quite a bit and am planning on writing more, and I'm not especially looking forward to having to go back and change everything.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Adorabear on March 02, 2016, 11:31:28 PM
      So @Adorabear, I still love you even when I don't always agree with you.  I promise to try to stop rubbing a bear the wrong way if you promise to stop forcing me to do things that I don't want to do. :P  In those cases, we can simply agree to disagree and then move on to other areas that make the game better.

      Fair enough, ill agree to that.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Kevkas on March 02, 2016, 11:58:27 PM
      I went through another review of the tables and I think what you said makes a lot of sense so I've made some revisions to the 35+ rewards so that they always continue to get better as a player racks up more wins.  I'm proposing this table to the product team for review and discussion so these are not final but as I mentioned before, the RR reward tables will be locked in before the current patch goes live.

      35      Legendary + Epic + Epic + Gold Common
      40   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Uncommon
      45   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Rare 
      50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic 
      60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary
      70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare
      80   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Epic
      100   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Legendary

      That's a bit more like it. I'd still like to see Gold Legendaries higher in the table (shouldn't be introduced earlier than 80-wins), and there's an overabundance of Legendaries past 60-wins (even at 40 wins seems too much right now to get 2 Legendaries). I'd stick to Leg + Epic + Epic for a bit more entries, like jump to Legendary + Legendary only at 50-wins if possible.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 03, 2016, 01:40:59 AM
      I went through another review of the tables and I think what you said makes a lot of sense so I've made some revisions to the 35+ rewards so that they always continue to get better as a player racks up more wins.  I'm proposing this table to the product team for review and discussion so these are not final but as I mentioned before, the RR reward tables will be locked in before the current patch goes live.

      35      Legendary + Epic + Epic + Gold Common
      40   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Uncommon
      45   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Rare 
      50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic 
      60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary
      70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare
      80   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Epic
      100   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Legendary

      That's a bit more like it. I'd still like to see Gold Legendaries higher in the table (shouldn't be introduced earlier than 80-wins), and there's an overabundance of Legendaries past 60-wins (even at 40 wins seems too much right now to get 2 Legendaries). I'd stick to Leg + Epic + Epic for a bit more entries, like jump to Legendary + Legendary only at 50-wins if possible.

      Yea we've been considering these and one of the reasons why the jumps look big is because each jump in reward is for an additional 10 wins after you get past 50.  Most weeks, the #1 player on draft leaderboards don't even make it to this level of wins, so we kind of want the rewards per +10 win tier to be a bit more substantial.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Kevkas on March 03, 2016, 01:51:26 AM
      I went through another review of the tables and I think what you said makes a lot of sense so I've made some revisions to the 35+ rewards so that they always continue to get better as a player racks up more wins.  I'm proposing this table to the product team for review and discussion so these are not final but as I mentioned before, the RR reward tables will be locked in before the current patch goes live.

      35      Legendary + Epic + Epic + Gold Common
      40   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Uncommon
      45   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Rare 
      50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic 
      60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary
      70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare
      80   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Epic
      100   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Legendary

      That's a bit more like it. I'd still like to see Gold Legendaries higher in the table (shouldn't be introduced earlier than 80-wins), and there's an overabundance of Legendaries past 60-wins (even at 40 wins seems too much right now to get 2 Legendaries). I'd stick to Leg + Epic + Epic for a bit more entries, like jump to Legendary + Legendary only at 50-wins if possible.

      Yea we've been considering these and one of the reasons why the jumps look big is because each jump in reward is for an additional 10 wins after you get past 50.  Most weeks, the #1 player on draft leaderboards don't even make it to this level of wins, so we kind of want the rewards per +10 win tier to be a bit more substantial.

      Understandable. Now that I take a second look at it, I'd only replace one thing, this:

      Quote
      50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic 
      60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary
      70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare

      for this:

      Quote
      50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic 
      60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Epic + Infinity Common x2 or Infinity Uncommon
      70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare

      Just because there seems to be no other way to get those two in the table.


      Alternatively (though I prefer the one above):

      Quote
      50   Legendary + Legendary + Epic + Gold Epic  + Infinity Common
      60   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Uncommon
      70   Legendary + Legendary + Legendary + Gold Legendary + Infinity Rare

      This one seems more subtle, but it does introduce Infinity borders much earlier.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Klassick on March 03, 2016, 02:48:46 AM
      I really liked Kevkas suggestion (first one)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Kevkas on March 03, 2016, 05:29:08 AM
      I really liked Kevkas suggestion (first one)

       ;D
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 05, 2016, 09:57:00 PM
      New Rift Run Leaderboard Rewards

      Position     Rewards
      1     3 Infinity Border cards & 3 Tradable Rare+ (Gold or Foil) cards & 5 Penta Packs
      2-5     2 Tradable Rare+ (Gold or Foil) cards & 5 Penta Packs
      6-25     1 Tradable (Gold or Foil) card & 5 Penta Packs
      26-50     1 Tradable Foil card & 3 Penta Packs

      This is how generous Yodo1/LM is:

      Total Per Week:
      3 Infinity Border Cards
      11 Rare+ (Gold or Foil) Cards
      20 (Gold or Foil) Cards
      25 Foil Cards
      200 Penta Packs (1000 Cards)

      Total Per Year:
      3*52 = 156 Infinity Border Cards
      11*52 = 572 Rare+ (Gold or Foil) Cards
      20*52 = 1040 (Gold or Foil) Cards
      25*52 = 1300 Foil Cards
      200*52 = 10400 Penta Packs (52000 Cards)

      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: mew28 on March 05, 2016, 11:03:17 PM
      New Rift Run Leaderboard Rewards

      Position     Rewards
      1     3 Infinity Border cards & 3 Tradable Rare+ (Gold or Foil) cards & 5 Penta Packs
      2-5     2 Tradable Rare+ (Gold or Foil) cards & 5 Penta Packs
      6-25     1 Tradable (Gold or Foil) card & 5 Penta Packs
      26-50     1 Tradable Foil card & 3 Penta Packs

      This is how generous Yodo1/LM is:

      Total Per Week:
      3 Infinity Border Cards
      11 Rare+ (Gold or Foil) Cards
      20 (Gold or Foil) Cards
      25 Foil Cards
      200 Penta Packs (1000 Cards)

      Total Per Year:
      3*52 = 156 Infinity Border Cards
      11*52 = 572 Rare+ (Gold or Foil) Cards
      20*52 = 1040 (Gold or Foil) Cards
      25*52 = 1300 Foil Cards
      200*52 = 10400 Penta Packs (52000 Cards)
      Wow thats a ton until you realise that will be split between 150 of players.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 05, 2016, 11:05:40 PM
      It will be split between 75 Players, because SMURFS.  ::)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Heaven-Canceler on March 06, 2016, 10:36:16 AM
      It will be split between 75 Players, because SMURFS.  ::)

      That is if every Player in Ranked only has 1 Smurf.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Trevinburgh on March 07, 2016, 07:06:50 AM
      Wow thats a ton until you realise that will be split between 150 of players.

      I *hope* that Yodo are doing long term calculations based on an active player base of at least 1500, not the current 150.

      But of those 1500 only a small number will get to the reward levels. I'm sure Yodo have all the stats but I'd be surprised if as many as 5% of the player base (smurf or otherwise) ever reach the top of the leaderboards.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 11:26:23 AM
      Folks,

      Thanks for all the feedback regarding the changes for 1.4.12 so far.  We've made some additional adjustments on the PBE servers just now, this time focused on the Penta Packs.  These adjustments are now effective on the PBE servers so if you want to try them out, you can hop onto PBE to see the changes.

      In summary, we made some additional changes to the Penta Packs as follows:

      1) Further increase in Epic and Legendary card drop rates for all Penta Packs
      * Based on the Penta Packs unboxing feedback from the community as well as 1000's more Penta Packs that we opened ourselves, we felt that Epic/Legendary drop rates were still too low so we are roughly doubling the Penta Pack drop rates of both Epics and Legendaries for all Penta Packs (Collection, Oppression and all 8 faction packs).

      2) Every Faction Penta Pack now has a chance to drop Hybrid and Dual Faction cards that overlap with that faction.  All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.
      * Dual faction and hybrid faction cards were previously not included in the faction pack card pools of any of the faction packs.  We have now included these cards into the faction packs of the faction colors that they overlap.  ie.  Lucca Ascended can drop from either Genesis or Overseers faction pack; Defiant Hermit can drop from either Warpath or Verore pack, etc.
      * Factionless cards were previously only available in the Collection & Oppression Penta Packs, pulling from a relatively large card pool.  We considered designing a factionless Penta Pack but the card pool for Factionless was too small for that to be effective and the result would have been lots of duplicate card drops.
      * Certain Faction Packs were also giving a high % of repeats, especially for rare, epic and legendary card drops.  Introducing factionless, hybrid and dual faction cards into the card pools of faction packs helps to alleviate duplicates as well as provide a reasonable means to acquire some much sought after factionless cards.  Since factionless cards can be incorporated into all decks of any purity, they can also be useful additions regardless of faction purity.

      Besides the above changes, we are also working on fixing a number of bugs that players have identified as part of the PBE Bug Bounty event.  We expect these bug fixes to be rolled into the PBE servers some time over the next day or two.

      Looking forward to getting more feedback from you all once you try our these new changes on the PBE server.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Rethorian on March 07, 2016, 11:38:04 AM
      2) Every Faction Penta Pack now has a chance to drop Hybrid and Dual Faction cards that overlap with that faction. All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.

      Wait, so if I pay real money for cards from a specific faction, you're telling me I can get a garbage factionless card in my pack instead? I don't like that at all.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 11:41:29 AM
      2) Every Faction Penta Pack now has a chance to drop Hybrid and Dual Faction cards that overlap with that faction. All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.

      Wait, so if I pay real money for cards from a specific faction, you're telling me I can get a garbage factionless card in my pack instead? I don't like that at all.

      Or you could get one of the not so garbage factionless cards like calamity, Martyr golem or mortar cannon.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Rethorian on March 07, 2016, 11:52:29 AM
      Most of the factionless cards are just not good. In a pack that I specifically buy to get cards from a certain faction, I don't want to see cards not from that faction.

      Calamity and Martyr Golem, and maybe Evelee are like the only factionless cards i'd ever be happy to see. The rest are pretty much worthless, or extremely close to it.

      If you really must have factionless cards in the Faction Packs, make a 'Factionless Penta Pack' that includes all cards like collection, but has a significantly higher chance of having factionless cards. There, problem solved.

      What happens in Faction Packs, should stay in Faction Packs. Not invite Factionless cards in for a party and have them throw up on my shoes.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Trevinburgh on March 07, 2016, 11:56:21 AM

      All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.

      I can see the logic, but might I suggest you limit the Factionless drop to (say) at most one per pack? If I pay real money for a faction pack I could live with one Factionless. Two would be annoying. Three would probably make me rage quit!
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Trevinburgh on March 07, 2016, 12:03:51 PM
      or maybe have Faction Penta Packs drop 5 from the Faction PLUS one "free bonus" Factionless card?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 12:10:34 PM

      All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.

      I can see the logic, but might I suggest you limit the Factionless drop to (say) at most one per pack? If I pay real money for a faction pack I could live with one Factionless. Two would be annoying. Three would probably make me rage quit!

      I'd definitely encourage everyone to jump on the PBE servers and try out a bunch of faction pack unboxings to see how things feel.  Right now, you can get up to 3 factionless cards in a faction pack but the chance of that is pretty low.  Typically, there will be zero to two factionless cards.

      Do remember that factionless cards drops also give you a chance to get some extremely useful cards such as Mortar cannon, Calamity, Zuza, Martyr Golem, Tech Knight, Defense Golem, Shikana, Deflect, Assasinate, etc which are all high utility cards in decks of any purity.

      We'll be carefully monitoring player feedback on this topic, especially feedback from actual deck unboxing.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Symphony on March 07, 2016, 12:11:19 PM
      2)All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.
      No no no no, definitely don't do this. You're keeping faction packs at LP only, they're a source for new players interested in the game to get more cards in the faction they like and you're going to add crap cards in the mix? There are 2.5 (I'm counting evellee and Enyah together as half) worthwhile factionless cards you'd ever want and it's simply not worth it to ruin the overall player experience for a chance of getting these.
      Imagine a new player, interested in the game, finds the sleepers good and interesting. There's no free sleepers deck anymore, so he decides he's going to spend some money and buy some sleepers pack and inside his 5 cards he gets a Spec Ops and a Demon Hunter. How pissed do you think he'd be?

      Please think of some other way of getting factionless cards, but don't ever put suboptimal pulls in a real money only pack.

      Edit:
      Quote
      Typically, there will be zero to two factionless cards.
      This just 100% illustrates my example. Don't, please :/
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Kevkas on March 07, 2016, 12:14:44 PM
      2) Every Faction Penta Pack now has a chance to drop Hybrid and Dual Faction cards that overlap with that faction. All Faction Penta Packs will now also have a chance to drop any Factionless card.

      Wait, so if I pay real money for cards from a specific faction, you're telling me I can get a garbage factionless card in my pack instead? I don't like that at all.

      As grumpy as Rethorian may be in general, this is a very valid point. The argument that has been provided for not allowing Faction Packs to be purchased with IP was that they draw from a much smaller and faction-specific pool of cards. That is no longer the case, so I'd like to ask, if Factionless cards are being added to the card pool of Faction Packs, what's the reason for not allowing them to be purchased with IP this time?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: OneTwo on March 07, 2016, 12:20:52 PM
      * Certain Faction Packs were also giving a high % of repeats, especially for rare, epic and legendary card drops.  Introducing factionless, hybrid and dual faction cards into the card pools of faction packs helps to alleviate duplicates as well as provide a reasonable means to acquire some much sought after factionless cards.  Since factionless cards can be incorporated into all decks of any purity, they can also be useful additions regardless of faction purity.

      Let me translate it...

      those packs where to efficient, and ppl ended up too fast with complete set of cards for low LP? So you need to fill those packs with more crap, that you can milk the cows better. And the argument to do it is a chance to Calamity and Martyr?

      I pitty those guys spending some multiple 300 LP on CoV packs in the hope of MDs, Annihilates, DWs and Oblivions to get their deck running, but ending with Aleta Traveler, Shirazius, Broodlord, Enyah and Silfurstar which doesnt even provide trading options with other players.

      I tested 100 Packs and i would feel deceived, scammed and robbed! Thats my feedback :)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 12:22:20 PM
      thanks for the feedback guys and as I mentioned, we'll be monitoring the feedback closely and then decide what further changes are required.

      Again, I encourage everyone to try out the packs first, and then give more feedback on the experience.  Excluding factionless card drops from faction packs is certainly still a possibility since the purpose of us posting this was to get more community feedback.

      Do note that this is a double edged sword since some extremely sort after cards such as Martyr and Calamity won't be easily obtainable if we end up excluding factionless drops from Faction packs.

      A pure factionless pack is probably off the table for now since the card pool for factionless is so small so we'll need to find another way to introduce these cards into the pack economy.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 12:25:05 PM
      * Certain Faction Packs were also giving a high % of repeats, especially for rare, epic and legendary card drops.  Introducing factionless, hybrid and dual faction cards into the card pools of faction packs helps to alleviate duplicates as well as provide a reasonable means to acquire some much sought after factionless cards.  Since factionless cards can be incorporated into all decks of any purity, they can also be useful additions regardless of faction purity.

      Let me translate it...

      those packs where to efficient, and ppl ended up too fast with complete set of cards for low LP? So you need to fill those packs with more crap, that you can milk the cows better. And the argument to do it is a chance to Calamity and Martyr?

      I pitty those guys spending some multiple 300 LP on CoV packs in the hope of MDs, Annihilates, DWs and Oblivions to get their deck running, but ending with Aleta Traveler, Shirazius, Broodlord, Enyah and Silfurstar which doesnt even provide trading options with other players.

      Actually your translation is way off.  we were getting feedback from players that they repeatedly pulled the same cards from multiple faction packs and they asked if there was a higher chance of particular cards dropping (which there is not).
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: OneTwo on March 07, 2016, 12:27:17 PM
      * Certain Faction Packs were also giving a high % of repeats, especially for rare, epic and legendary card drops.  Introducing factionless, hybrid and dual faction cards into the card pools of faction packs helps to alleviate duplicates as well as provide a reasonable means to acquire some much sought after factionless cards.  Since factionless cards can be incorporated into all decks of any purity, they can also be useful additions regardless of faction purity.

      Let me translate it...

      those packs where to efficient, and ppl ended up too fast with complete set of cards for low LP? So you need to fill those packs with more crap, that you can milk the cows better. And the argument to do it is a chance to Calamity and Martyr?

      I pitty those guys spending some multiple 300 LP on CoV packs in the hope of MDs, Annihilates, DWs and Oblivions to get their deck running, but ending with Aleta Traveler, Shirazius, Broodlord, Enyah and Silfurstar which doesnt even provide trading options with other players.

      Actually your translation is way off.  we were getting feedback from players that they repeatedly pulled the same cards from multiple faction packs and they asked if there was a higher chance of particular cards dropping (which there is not).

      But thats the point of those packs?

      Getting as fast as possible multiple versions of the cards. If you dont want that, those are the wrong packs!

      The only thing to prevent maybe too many sad faces with those packs, get a better algorithm providing constantly a other card than u have pulled before :)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Cleanse on March 07, 2016, 12:28:23 PM
      A pure factionless pack is probably off the table for now since the card pool for factionless is so small so we'll need to find another way to introduce these cards into the pack economy.

      Do you have the figures handy as to how many cards are in each faction (including factionless)? I mean, I could count them, but you could probably say more quickly and accurately. :) That would help us discuss the possible options better.

      Also, are Factionless cards being treated simply as part of the pool of possible cards, or is it a set % to determine whether a card will be Faction or not? If it is the former, that would disadvantage the smaller factions.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Rethorian on March 07, 2016, 12:30:26 PM
      Do remember that factionless cards drops also give you a chance to get some extremely useful cards such as Mortar cannon, Calamity, Zuza, Martyr Golem, Tech Knight, Defense Golem, Shikana, Deflect, Assasinate, etc which are all high utility cards in decks of any purity.

      We'll be carefully monitoring player feedback on this topic, especially feedback from actual deck unboxing.

      Mortar Cannon, Tech Knight, Defense Golem, Assasinate are not high utility cards. They are objectively bad cards, and you will find very few veterans saying otherwise.

      Shikana, Zuza and Deflect are rather niche, Shikana only really being used with Herald of the Dawn in Flame Dawn decks, but that combo has fallen out of favor somewhat, especially with the popularity of FD/OOS as the top FD deck. Zuza and Deflect are extremely niche. I'd argue that no deck is technically better after you add Zuza. It might not get worse, but it doesn't really get better.

      If possible, elaborate on the "etc". You will run out of cards, and fast. Here, let's do a quick runthrough myself:

      Survival Swarmer - Not bad, they have some trade value, if still a subpar card
      Swarmer Broodlord - Extremely Niche, and since decks only ever need 1 copy, not high trade value at all
      Varyus, Master of Choice - Again, extremely niche, and objectively, he doesnt make a deck better or worse in his best case scenario, he only adds some choice
      Called Shot - Not a bad card for a new player, especially in factions low on removal (like OOS or Sleepers), but in competitive play... it's a bad card, too slow, too unreliable
      Explore - Has some value in location based decks... but it's sooooo niche.
      Gather Thoughts - Ok, decent card here, but only sees play in control/stall really
      Grave Rob - Niche sideboard at best. Barely sees play
      Recycle - Good card, but only sees play in control/stall really
      Rift to the Old World - Useless, only really saw use because Veroria was a stupid piece of garbage
      Winds of War - Decent AoE card


      So really, all these cards are mostly niche, or useless. The ones that are niche, are often not even necessary for a deck to be good.

      A pure factionless pack is probably off the table for now since the card pool for factionless is so small so we'll need to find another way to introduce these cards into the pack economy.

      If you really must have factionless cards in the Faction Packs, make a 'Factionless Penta Pack' that includes all cards like collection, but has a significantly higher chance of having factionless cards. There, problem solved.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Goldschuss on March 07, 2016, 12:36:27 PM
      If the card pool for factionless cards is so small, then why not make each factionless card buyable in the store?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 12:37:35 PM
      A pure factionless pack is probably off the table for now since the card pool for factionless is so small so we'll need to find another way to introduce these cards into the pack economy.

      Do you have the figures handy as to how many cards are in each faction (including factionless)? I mean, I could count them, but you could probably say more quickly and accurately. :) That would help us discuss the possible options better.

      Also, are Factionless cards being treated simply as part of the pool of possible cards, or is it a set % to determine whether a card will be Faction or not? If it is the former, that would disadvantage the smaller factions.
      I'd actually have to go count the number of cards myself but roughly speaking, factionless card pool is about 50% smaller than each of the individual factions.

      Right now factionless cards have a lower % chance to drop in a faction pack than the faction cards themselves and are limited to a maximum of 3 when they drop.  Again, I encourage you to try it on the PBE server as a paper analysis just doesn't give us the full feedback we are looking for.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: OneTwo on March 07, 2016, 01:21:50 PM
      In this case, everyone should "buy" 5-20 packs for a good feeling.
      I think noone would spam 50, 100 or 200 faction-packs ;)

      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Symphony on March 07, 2016, 01:31:31 PM
      Ran 100 wp packs and have to say it feels reaaaaally bad pulling factionless cards in a LP pack. I'll put my numbers when I get back home and some terrifying pulls  I got. Just a sneak-peak:

      (http://i.imgur.com/VMg4s26.png)
      Yay for 1 wp card in a wp booster!
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Heyheuhei on March 07, 2016, 01:34:22 PM
      i opened 30 packs. Got 3 factionless rares. 2 Immovables. About 8 epics. And in last pack i got these http://snag.gy/nu1u2.jpg
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 07, 2016, 01:59:25 PM
      Ran 100 wp packs and have to say it feels reaaaaally bad pulling factionless cards in a LP pack. I'll put my numbers when I get back home and some terrifying pulls  I got. Just a sneak-peak:

      (http://i.imgur.com/VMg4s26.png)
      Yay for 1 wp card in a wp booster!

      Hmm, looks like some of the packs are dropping more factionless than they should since max should be 3.  I'll have a chat with the dev team in the morning and get things fixed.

      Also, good point about limiting the number of factionless that can potentially drop in a faction pack.  I'll take that back to the dev team and we'll do some more adjustments.

      on another note, how's the new epic/legendary drop rates looking with the new pack changes?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: IguanaMan on March 07, 2016, 03:59:34 PM
      max should be 3
      3 means the possibility of packs with more factionless than the faction they bought the pack for...
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: zekses on March 07, 2016, 04:09:08 PM
      7th CoV penta pack. Even before that, the rate of factionless was horrible.


      (http://s10.postimg.org/yxllpyrrd/cov.png) (http://postimage.org/)


      P.S. Just no. Ppl will rage at even 1 factionless in penta packs. Cause they are paying their money for a very specific pool of cards and they are effectively cheated by getting junk instead.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: zekses on March 07, 2016, 04:13:58 PM
      P.P.S. 10th cov pack. Whoever is responsible for rates, pls make sure he never codes a line into the codebase again.

      (http://s12.postimg.org/ca8x64x31/cov2.png) (http://postimage.org/)

      If penta packs were limited to a few neutral cards that are actually decent that wouldn't be that much of a problem. But having them pull from the whole pool of garbage is unacceptable.


      50 CoV  packs netted me ~60 neutral cards of which 3 were calamity, admittedly, still that is a bit too much, imo.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Kevkas on March 07, 2016, 04:48:25 PM
      Do note that this is a double edged sword since some extremely sort after cards such as Martyr and Calamity won't be easily obtainable if we end up excluding factionless drops from Faction packs.

      That's understandable, and personally I'm fine with that. If you think about it, even other crappy Factionless cards will increase in value, cause if all those cards can't be obtained so easily, there will actually be people looking for Defense Golems, Shirazius and the like. This isn't a bad thing, on the contrary, when was the last time you saw people looking for wealthy nobles in trades? Why would that be a bad thing? (you can't just limit the whys to two or three cards like Martyr, Calamity and Evellee when coming up for reasons on what to do with factionless, other cards deserve some thought too)

      If the Factionless card pool is that much smaller than other factions, then it wouldn't be such a bad idea to limit them to be found in Core Packs or Expansions packs, it will bring some value to cards that have always had the lowest of values, such as Vandalize or Rift to the Old World.

      Just because they don't qualify (yet) to have their own Faction pack because their card pool is small, doesn't mean the design concept for Faction Packs should now be changed. You want them to be LP-only? Then be consistent with that design and keep them drawing cards from Faction only pools, don't just throw Factionless in there... especially considering what I asked before: if Faction Packs design concept is 'LP-only for a smaller, faction-specific card pool size' then why can't they be purchased with IP if you are moving away from that concept by including factionless cards too? Otherwise people wouldn't be getting what they've paid for.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Goldschuss on March 07, 2016, 04:56:39 PM
      Hey guys, seems like we can obtain 8 different factionless packs with a few of the having a faction  ::)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Symphony on March 07, 2016, 05:45:49 PM
      These are the data on my pulls atm (I'll probably do another run later)
      https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1YATtTBjiP7-XrORtPLuN2YUokJy7ZNoDzBfWF_BbM2I/edit?usp=sharing

      I'm sorry, but I'm not spending LP on a FACTION pack to get 30% factionless cards. Please, fully reconsider this. Look at a collection of some of my pulls (12% of the pulls!) and tell me if someone who bought an LP only pack would not rage at this:


      The epic/legendary pull rates are pretty damn good atm, though. I need more packs to get more consistent data, but it's a great improvement. Depending on the numbers it might just need a bit of tuning down.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Klassick on March 07, 2016, 06:21:27 PM
      Do we already have a date for the new patch (and the penta packs alterations) to hit the main server?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Wayfinder1026 on March 07, 2016, 07:16:02 PM
      The best suggestion so far, I think, Is adding 1 additional card to the penta packs that's a guaranteed factionless pack.
      A close second is limiting it to 1.
      Personally I think it's a good idea offering factionless cards in the penta packs. When I was a new player, there were a lot of factionless cards I wanted to get my hands on. Wanting to explore and try things out for myself. BUT If I pay money, I want the cards I get to be useful to me. And If I get more than 1 factionless it damn well better be something I can use, if it's spec op or something, I will be a very unsatisfied customer.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 07, 2016, 07:43:51 PM
      Oh Lightmare/Yodo1 you lazy bums. I know why you guys included Factionless in the Faction Penta Packs. It was the most simple way to include Duo Purity Cards into the Packs without having to re-label all Duo Purity Cards. Either that or you had to manually incorporate every Duo Purity Card into a specific pack which is too much work (you also might forget to do such a thing in future sets).

      Your initial coding probably labels all Duo Purity cards as Factionless, which is why we were unable to get any Duo Purity cards before.  ;)

      P.P.S. 10th cov pack. Whoever is responsible for rates, pls make sure he never codes a line into the codebase again.


      They might have to fire Ian, AHAHAHAHA.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 07, 2016, 08:00:32 PM
      Also increasing the Epic Drop Rate to replace the Rare Drop Rate isn't exactly "roughly doubling the Penta Pack drop rates of both Epics and Legendaries for all Penta Packs (Collection, Oppression and all 8 faction packs)".  ;)

      I would give suggestions, but I don't think anything I say would be possible to do with regards to the coding aspect of things.

      P.S. I have closed down my Penta Pack Drop Rates Thread for reasons. Hopefully someone else takes up the mantle.  ;D
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Interesting_Socks on March 07, 2016, 09:02:26 PM
      Do remember that factionless cards drops also give you a chance to get some extremely useful cards such as Mortar cannon, Calamity, Zuza, Martyr Golem, Tech Knight, Defense Golem, Shikana, Deflect, Assasinate, etc which are all high utility cards in decks of any purity.

      We'll be carefully monitoring player feedback on this topic, especially feedback from actual deck unboxing.

      Mortar Cannon, Tech Knight, Defense Golem, Assasinate are not high utility cards. They are objectively bad cards, and you will find very few veterans saying otherwise.

      Shikana, Zuza and Deflect are rather niche, Shikana only really being used with Herald of the Dawn in Flame Dawn decks, but that combo has fallen out of favor somewhat, especially with the popularity of FD/OOS as the top FD deck. Zuza and Deflect are extremely niche. I'd argue that no deck is technically better after you add Zuza. It might not get worse, but it doesn't really get better.

      If possible, elaborate on the "etc". You will run out of cards, and fast. Here, let's do a quick runthrough myself:

      Survival Swarmer - Not bad, they have some trade value, if still a subpar card
      Swarmer Broodlord - Extremely Niche, and since decks only ever need 1 copy, not high trade value at all
      Varyus, Master of Choice - Again, extremely niche, and objectively, he doesnt make a deck better or worse in his best case scenario, he only adds some choice
      Called Shot - Not a bad card for a new player, especially in factions low on removal (like OOS or Sleepers), but in competitive play... it's a bad card, too slow, too unreliable
      Explore - Has some value in location based decks... but it's sooooo niche.
      Gather Thoughts - Ok, decent card here, but only sees play in control/stall really
      Grave Rob - Niche sideboard at best. Barely sees play
      Recycle - Good card, but only sees play in control/stall really
      Rift to the Old World - Useless, only really saw use because Veroria was a stupid piece of garbage
      Winds of War - Decent AoE card


      So really, all these cards are mostly niche, or useless. The ones that are niche, are often not even necessary for a deck to be good.

      A pure factionless pack is probably off the table for now since the card pool for factionless is so small so we'll need to find another way to introduce these cards into the pack economy.

      If you really must have factionless cards in the Faction Packs, make a 'Factionless Penta Pack' that includes all cards like collection, but has a significantly higher chance of having factionless cards. There, problem solved.

      Rethorian is on point here.

      I agree with everything, including his factionless penta pack suggestion.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Axeecutioner on March 07, 2016, 09:14:47 PM
      There needs to be rewards like this for regular infinity game play. Screw draft.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: GTRMERCY1 on March 07, 2016, 09:26:54 PM
      It appears, at first glance atleast, to be laughable. For every step in the right direction taken, with creating faction specific penta-pack, this new proposition to be in addition drawing from the factionless card pool is going backward. Im struggling to see how you can still sell/market the packs as being Faction Name penta-pack if all the cards may not be from the player personally chosen faction, for that privilage the player will pay double normal pack price and must be LP purchase. I think if you really want the player money you must do better, and I think you have shown that you can. I mean how else can you describe what a Faction Name penta-pack contains now other than? A pack of 5 cards, with a chance to be from the Faction Name on the pack or from Factionless. Guaranteed to contain atleast one rare or higher from either.

      I imagine it must be difficult to manage such a large pool of cards, somewhere in the region of 850 I think, having been collecting from the ascension set release. Although I do understand why you want to change from the traditional expansion booster pack it just feels that 5 card packs are simply to small when drawing from, what I think, is an excessively large pool of cards.  Maybe a simple increase to the Collection Penta-pack size could  better accommodate any factionless card shortage, for instance price match to the faction penta(300 both LP/IP) and go up-to 10 cards in pack, rather than adding them to faction penta. At this point I am wondering now as to the relevance of keeping the Oppression set available? This is confusing

      From what I have experienced on the PBE with opening penta-packs the drop rate for gold/foil premium cards have improved, also most recently Epic and Legendary too. Is it possible that we will see new player put in to a position where they have to trade away any premiums and rare or above just to be able to complete a deck with the required common and uncommon? This may or may not be a good thing, as it will increase trading between player base.

      Personally I am lucky enough now to have a complete collection so their is no need for myself to buy anymore boosters until the next set is released.

      After getting on the PBE today I do have some results to show form the packs I opened, will make it as clear as I can:
                                               

      Packs/                Faction Name/                Faction Cards/                Factionless cards/
      9                        WP                                  29                                  16
      9                        FD                                   35                                   10
      5                        DOD                                 19                                   6
      5                        SOA                                 20                                   5
      5                        EXL                                  22                                   3
      5                        OSS                                 16                                   9
      5                        GSI                                  16                                   9
      5                        COV                                 20                                   5

      also in addition

      5                       Oppression                      NA                                    0
      5                       Collection                         NA                                    1



                     
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Trevinburgh on March 07, 2016, 10:02:17 PM
      There needs to be rewards like this for regular infinity game play. Screw draft.

      I wouldn't go that far... but as someone who rarely plays draft I'm hoping the team is also planning some form of rewards for those playing Ranked. I'm sure (?)  all that will come later.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Adorabear on March 07, 2016, 10:44:26 PM
      max should be 3
      3 means the possibility of packs with more factionless than the faction they bought the pack for...

      Yea thats so bad lol, especially because they are like triple the price of regular packs and LP only. I wouldnt want to see a single factionless card in the pack let alone 3 ew
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Nehkrimah on March 07, 2016, 11:58:09 PM
      Agreed, although I do like the idea of a 6th card that is only factionless in those packs.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: electro13 on March 08, 2016, 12:28:01 AM
      I opened 99 WP pentas on test a moment ago and pulled 9 aleta traveler. That's almost 1 per 10 packs, and most of those were my 1 guaranteed rare or higher card.

      That being said I also pulled 3 primals and some other things, and was able to build a full 3wp deck meta viable from it (also pulled a martyr, 2 calams, 3 hermit, and an evellee for real, relevant cards)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: RikkiTikki on March 08, 2016, 02:47:01 AM
      Oh Lightmare/Yodo1 you lazy bums. I know why you guys included Factionless in the Faction Penta Packs. It was the most simple way to include Duo Purity Cards into the Packs without having to re-label all Duo Purity Cards. Either that or you had to manually incorporate every Duo Purity Card into a specific pack which is too much work (you also might forget to do such a thing in future sets).

      Your initial coding probably labels all Duo Purity cards as Factionless, which is why we were unable to get any Duo Purity cards before.  ;)

      Actually, the absence of dual/hybrid purity cards in the previous Penta Packs was simply an oversight by us and had nothing to do with the proposal to include factionless cards.

      max should be 3
      3 means the possibility of packs with more factionless than the faction they bought the pack for...

      Yea thats so bad lol, especially because they are like triple the price of regular packs and LP only. I wouldnt want to see a single factionless card in the pack let alone 3 ew

      Why do I keep seeing players say that the Faction Penta Packs will be triple the price of Collection Packs >.<

      Just a reminder that we readjusted the price from 450 LP to 300 LP a week ago! :)

      • Introducing, Penta Packs! Each Penta Pack will consist of 5 cards with each containing at least a guaranteed rare+ card. We have revised the price for faction Penta Packs to be set at 300 LP.

      Thanks to everyone who's been sharing their thoughts and feedback with us! I'd like to emphasize Crestmoor's point that this change is NOT final. We wanted to test out an idea we had for introducing factionless cards in more accessible fashion and we're all ears to any well-thought-out proposals. :D
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Adorabear on March 08, 2016, 03:41:15 AM
      Still more expensive, twice as expensive even. I would be disgusted at getting a single factionless card in a faction pack even if they were the SAME price which they are not. Factionless cards do not belong to the flame dawn and shouldnt be in their packs
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: NatoPotato on March 08, 2016, 05:55:06 AM
      What if instead of adding dual/hybrid cards to faction packs they are bundled together with factionless cards in their own pack?

      A sort of 'everything else' pack, which can have factionless, hybrid and dual cards.

      It would give the 'factionless pack' a larger card pool and would prevent you getting the same hybrid card multiple times opening different faction packs. (I get it probably doesn't make them exactly twice as likely to drop, but having an overlap does somewhat increase the chance right?)

      Though even then its probably still not enough cards. :-\
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: RikkiTikki on March 08, 2016, 08:21:28 AM
      Hey everyone,

      After extensively discussing the matter internally, personally talking to a few players, and looking through the feedback here, we have decided to revert the proposal to include factionless cards in the Faction Penta Packs (the increased epic/legendary drop rates will remain implemented and Faction Penta Packs will still be able to drop dual/hybrid cards). This revision is now active on the PBE and we encourage everyone to check it out again and share your thoughts!

      One of the original reasons for including factionless cards in Faction Packs in the first place was to allow a number of highly useful cards more accessible. While we considered creating a factionless Penta Pack, we believed that the card pool for such a pack was too small and would result in many unwanted duplicate card drops. Additionally, we were noticing a relatively high proportion of duplicates being drawn in the pure Faction Penta Packs - the inclusion of factionless cards was meant to alleviate this issue while providing players the chance to draw some highly desired factionless cards.

      In the end, we've decided to excluded factionless cards from Faction Penta Packs for a number of reasons, many of which were pointed out. The justification for assigning a higher price (and making it exclusively purchasable through LP) is that players will be able to target a specific pool of desired cards. Players would occasionally receive a highly desirable/rare factionless card (such as Calamity, Martyr Golem, etc.); however, after deliberating over it, we've come to the conclusion that it does not outweigh the positive experience of players being able to draw cards from the faction they want and getting what they more or less expect from a pack.

      As Crestmoor mentioned, a pure factionless pack is most likely not something we will pursue in the immediate future. We will definitely look into better solutions again down the road, but for now we've decided to simply restrict factionless cards to the Collection and Oppression Penta Packs. This matter notwithstanding, we think the Penta Packs are in a very good state now! :)

      Let us know what you think and what other suggestions you'd like us to consider!
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 08, 2016, 08:44:42 AM
      Aleta, Immortal Traveler is one of the Conspiracy Cards BTW.  ;)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: OneTwo on March 08, 2016, 09:03:32 AM
      Aleta, Immortal Traveler is one of the Conspiracy Cards BTW.  ;)

      Is it rly a conspiracy? For me its a proven fact!
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Rethorian on March 08, 2016, 09:36:29 AM
      Let us know what you think and what other suggestions you'd like us to consider!

      Never been on the PBE, but Electro said he pulled 8 legendaries in 99 packs earlier in this thread. That's like 1/12 Legendary Chance. For a booster that costs almost half the old boosters. And those boosters have like a 1/20-1/25 legendary chance.

      So... you've basically quadrupled the legendary drop rate per IP spent. My concern is... can you even make money selling packs if it's going to be so much easier to grind IP and F2P the game?
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Trevinburgh on March 08, 2016, 09:54:05 AM
      In the end, we've decided to excluded factionless cards from Faction Penta Packs for a number of reasons, many of which were pointed out. The justification for assigning a higher price (and making it exclusively purchasable through LP) is that players will be able to target a specific pool of desired cards. Players would occasionally receive a highly desirable/rare factionless card (such as Calamity, Martyr Golem, etc.); however, after deliberating over it, we've come to the conclusion that it does not outweigh the positive experience of players being able to draw cards from the faction they want and getting what they more or less expect from a pack.

      Good decision, thank you for listening.

      As Crestmoor mentioned, a pure factionless pack is most likely not something we will pursue in the immediate future. We will definitely look into better solutions again down the road, but for now we've decided to simply restrict factionless cards to the Collection and Oppression Penta Packs. This matter notwithstanding, we think the Penta Packs are in a very good state now! :)

      Let us know what you think and what other suggestions you'd like us to consider!

      If you need to make Factionless cards more readily available, how about making the Collection Penta pack give one guaranteed Factionless plus four totally random?

      Another option might to be make one of the daily rewards a 'Rare or better Factionless'.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Adorabear on March 08, 2016, 10:09:07 AM
      Since the factionless packs do cost more perhaps you could consider tagging a bonus factionless card onto them. So a faction penta comes with 5 faction cards and a 6th factionless card.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Trevinburgh on March 08, 2016, 10:17:10 AM
      Additionally, we were noticing a relatively high proportion of duplicates being drawn in the pure Faction Penta Packs

      [windup]
      That's easy to fix - just increase the card pool by releasing an expansion set  every month.
      [/windup]
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Symphony on March 08, 2016, 11:03:26 AM
      Let us know what you think and what other suggestions you'd like us to consider!

      Never been on the PBE, but Electro said he pulled 8 legendaries in 99 packs earlier in this thread. That's like 1/12 Legendary Chance. For a booster that costs almost half the old boosters. And those boosters have like a 1/20-1/25 legendary chance.

      So... you've basically quadrupled the legendary drop rate per IP spent. My concern is... can you even make money selling packs if it's going to be so much easier to grind IP and F2P the game?
      Reth brings a very good point here and it's something I mentioned on the post where I linked my factionless stats. It's great and all that the rates are now higher, but make sure they're economically viable for LM/Yodo. Opening 100 preorder packs and getting 1 legendary SUCKS, but getting 6~8 might just bee a bit too much. It would likely mean that there's no trading required after you opened the preorders, only if you're looking for platfoils.

      Again, the rates are fantastic, but please be very careful about what you're going to implement in the real servers, as this might simply break the economy beyond repair (and your profits)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Munchkin9 on March 08, 2016, 01:14:06 PM
      My card draw game is pretty weak so I wont comment too much on the details on that part. I am curious about the changes to Rift Run. Okay the rewards have gone up, and the cost has gone up (x1.5!) but should we expect improvements to match making in the near future? Right now my problem, for example, is not what rewards I'm getting, it is that I seem to always be matched against seasoned players and decks with double-digit wins (I'm aware this might be related to the size of the player base on RRs). The result is that my 0 win deck stays a 0 win deck and I lose very quickly. So I would never touch any sort of elevated reward. And with a now elevated entrance cost I don't see myself really ever doing Rift Run. Which makes me really sad, since it is my favorite mode (even if my highest wins ever is 3).

      I understand a lot of this is probably just a reflection of my personal skill, but I feel like other new players will run into this same issue and that will only lower the player base for RR even further.

      If, however, I was matched against other low-win decks (and ideally low-skill players) then I might have a chance to get my feet under me and touch a couple nicer rewards.

      Just the opinion of a newer player. Keep up the good work on the changes!
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: IguanaMan on March 08, 2016, 01:30:14 PM
      Let us know what you think and what other suggestions you'd like us to consider!

      Never been on the PBE, but Electro said he pulled 8 legendaries in 99 packs earlier in this thread. That's like 1/12 Legendary Chance. For a booster that costs almost half the old boosters. And those boosters have like a 1/20-1/25 legendary chance.

      So... you've basically quadrupled the legendary drop rate per IP spent. My concern is... can you even make money selling packs if it's going to be so much easier to grind IP and F2P the game?
      Other games like Duelyst and Spellweaver are generous to F2P players, they are still doing fine.  The people who pay $ are the people who want it NOW and don't like to grind at all.  I think IW has been pretty grindy in the past and am happy to see this change.

      Opening 100 packs for free is easy on the PBE, you have to remember in total that costs $125.  8 Legendaries isn't even close to a full playset esp when most of them are garbage and many need 2-3 copies.  Seems fine to me, certainly not on the overly generous side.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Benionin on March 08, 2016, 01:43:27 PM
      Additionally, we were noticing a relatively high proportion of duplicates being drawn in the pure Faction Penta Packs

      [windup]
      That's easy to fix - just increase the card pool by releasing an expansion set  every month.
      [/windup]

      I wouldn't exactly call that "easy"--introducing sets with any sort of frequency will cause a lot of problems.
      You think the game is buggy? New code being constantly introduced for new cards won't fix that, and it'll just prevent the devs from actually fixing the bugs while they constantly iterate on new cards.
      Maybe you think balance is off in the game at the moment--there sure have been times in the past where that's true. How do you expect the devs to create and balance and test and iterate and get the art for an entirely new set in just one month? MTG doesn't even do it that fast!

      Now I'm just going to assume that you're using hyperbole here, because actually releasing a new set every month would be absolutely unreasonable. Would more sets increase the card pool? Sure. But I think LM and Yodo1 are more interested in getting the house in order before they build a new addition. I'm certainly not going to just build a new room for my house if the roof is leaking or the foundation is faulty.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Crestmoor on March 08, 2016, 02:48:11 PM
      Let us know what you think and what other suggestions you'd like us to consider!

      Never been on the PBE, but Electro said he pulled 8 legendaries in 99 packs earlier in this thread. That's like 1/12 Legendary Chance. For a booster that costs almost half the old boosters. And those boosters have like a 1/20-1/25 legendary chance.

      So... you've basically quadrupled the legendary drop rate per IP spent. My concern is... can you even make money selling packs if it's going to be so much easier to grind IP and F2P the game?
      Reth brings a very good point here and it's something I mentioned on the post where I linked my factionless stats. It's great and all that the rates are now higher, but make sure they're economically viable for LM/Yodo. Opening 100 preorder packs and getting 1 legendary SUCKS, but getting 6~8 might just bee a bit too much. It would likely mean that there's no trading required after you opened the preorders, only if you're looking for platfoils.

      Again, the rates are fantastic, but please be very careful about what you're going to implement in the real servers, as this might simply break the economy beyond repair (and your profits)

      yep and thanks for the feedback.  We'll be monitoring the card economy as well as card packs purchased very carefully once the changes go live and if we need to make further adjustments, we'll again share our thinking with the community before committing to changes.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Adorabear on March 08, 2016, 02:52:32 PM
      we'll again share our thinking with the community before committing to changes.

      This half sentence is the most encouraging hope inducing thing you've said since... well since ever. I think you'll save yourself a lot of dev time and money by continuing this wonderful theme of communication before commitment.

      Thanks for listening. I am looking forward to seeing future developments.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: watchmedie on March 08, 2016, 03:07:13 PM
      you guys should really consider keep the drop rates as were in the 1k test.
      yes getting 1 leg in 100 packs suck.
      so implement a grace system in which the server count packs opened per client and either gives an increased chance at higher end card per pack opened or just straight out counts to a number and once that number is reached you get said high end card 100% on your next pack.
      you guys don't even have to tell us how it works or that a system like that exists.
      also you don't have to implement it THIS patch you can add it next patch.
      just saying that a system like that or something more rng based solves all the issues, w/o hurting the game economy and your profits.

      edit: didn't add that once you do get a high end card counter resets (kind obvious though)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: GTRMERCY1 on March 08, 2016, 06:06:49 PM
      After getting back on the PBE earlier today for more penta testing these are my results:

      x15 Penta for each faction or 75 cards.

      1.   Flamedawn: 0 Factionless, 35 C, 23 UC, 13 R, 3 E, 1 L.  1 Foil C, 1 Foil UC.

      2.   Genesis:  0 Factionless, 32 C, 22 UC, 17 R, 2 E, 2 L.   1 Foil C, 2 Gold & 2 Foil UC, 1 Foil R.

      3.   Warpath:  0 Factionless, 33 C, 26 UC, 10 R, 4 E, 2 L.   3 Foil C, 1 Gold UC, 1 Foil E.

      4.   Cult of Verore:   0 Factionless, 35 C, 21 UC, 15 R, 4 E, 0 L.   1 Gold C.



      Further looking at factionless drops.

      x30 Collection penta or 150 cards.

      7 Factionless, 4 C, 1 UC, 2 R, 0 E, 0 L.

      Faction rare or above totals:   22 R, 6 E, 3 L.
      Faction Premiums: 2 Gold C, 2 Foil & 1 Gold UC, 1 Gold Rare.

      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 08, 2016, 08:40:30 PM
      These new Penta Packs have my seal of approval for now.  ;D

      Here is my analysis why:

      1. Five Cards per Penta Pack
      Although many may say that getting less cards is bad, on the contrary reducing the number of cards per pack good for the game. It would give the appearance that Commons/Uncommons are not completely useless. This shifts value into Common/Uncommon cards and we would likely see more trades of these low rarity cards in the near future. This is ideal in a free market trading card game. Even Veteran players would start trading Commons/Uncommon for Rares instead of giving them away.
      If you are a new player, this scenario doesn't seem appealing at first, but allow me to get to my other points further down this post. Keep in mind that when Commons/Uncommons hold value, you would be likely to trade your very own Commons/Uncommons 1:1 with another new player, resulting in everyone being happy.

      2. Increased Accessibility to Premiums
      With Premiums becoming more accessible to new and veteran players alike, new collectors emerge creating more demand for these Premiums. The rates of Golds and Foil have definitely increased significantly, however Gold Foils still seem to be extremely difficult to get. As a result, Veteran players that have been collecting Gold Foils would not have their current collections devalued. Before, acquiring an entire Gold or Foil deck would seem impossible, which is why many newer players would prefer trade their cards for usable cards instead of collecting them themselves. Now that having an entire Gold or Foil deck is within grasps reach, I expect the trade chat to have increased in demand with regards to trading Golds for Golds, instead of the same 3 people trading Non-Premiums for Golds/Foils. LM/Yodo1 increased the rates at an optimal amount, not enough to overwhelm the economy with useless Golds and devaluing collections, but enough to create desires in becoming a Premium Collector. With an increase in Premium demand, values of Premiums may rise, giving cards a reasonable monetary value. This benefits both new and veteran players alike.

      3. Reduced Drop Rates of Rares / Increased Drop Rates of Epics & Legendaries
      Before, everyone wanted a certain Legendary or Epic, but they had only Rares to trade. No one would be stupid enough to trade a Legendary for even 30 Rares. However now, this trade would be more than reasonable for the player trading the Legendary. Rares had been flooding the economy making it about as worthless and Commons/Uncommons. The only thing separating such a distinction was that you are guaranteed only one Rare+ per pack that costs 5250IP. With these shifts to Drop Rates, Rares are deserving of their tier status, because it seems that in most packs, getting an Epic & Rare is highly unlikely. You would most likely get 4 Commons + 1 Epic. With the Legendary & Epic Drop Rates increased and replacing the Rare all together. I'm not saying it is impossible to get a Rare + Legendary in one pack, it is just less likely in my opinion. With these new Drop Rates, the potential for trades of 3 Rares for 1 Epic is much more likely to happen. I might even say that with these Penta Pack changes, 2 Rares for an Epic is an entirely fair trade. Many players in the past have complained about this being a Pay to Win game, due to the fact that they have been unable to acquire a single Legendary with hours and hours of game play. The new Penta Pack Drop Rates seems to suggest that most will be able to get at least 1 Legendary per 15 packs. This is all for appearance's sake. If you are new and suddenly have a Legendary card you would most likely continue to play the game, because you now have a card of value in your eyes. As many have stated, Infinity Wars does not require Legendaries to win in competitive formats such as Tournaments or Ranked. A new player having a Legendary does not make them instantly an OP player. Letting them have a Legendary simply retains them in the game longer. These Penta Pack changes will indirectly influence new player retention on a psychological level. As a veteran player, how will these changes impact you? I am a veteran player that has played over 5000 hours, and I still do not have every card in the game. Finally being able to finish my collection, and moving onto Premium collecting is beneficial to me. Have you ever wanted those 3 Martyr Golems, 3 Immovables, 3 Primal Hunters to finish up that Descendants of the Dragon deck you have always wanted to play, but you couldn't because it wasn't optimal to play that deck without these Legendaries? Are you tired of those scumbag traders, not trading you any of their Legendaries except for Premiums, just taunting you with cards that they have rotting in their collection when you could be using it to have fun? Well fear no longer, with the introduction of Faction Packs along with these increased Epic/Legendary Drop Rates, you can say fk them and just get the cards yourself. Then you laugh at them trying to trade 1 Legendary for 10 Golds when the economy has clearly shifted.

      4. Faction Packs Only Costing LP
      This is slightly non-beneficial to Free to Play Players, but think of it as a necessary evil in order for the success and the future of the game. Infinity Wars is a business not a charity, no matter how much we want it to be. They need to make money and pay their employees. To Pay to Play Players however, the ability to purchase a pack of your choice with your desired Faction without those stupid Factionless cards is ideal. You want that Klore? You want that Primal Hunter? Well you know exactly where and how you can get it. You could also purchase Collection Penta Packs, for 2x more cards and hope to trade/acquire it eventually. As a new player you want to focus on a faction, Faction Packs are a perfect buy. If you are a Paying Veteran Player looking for that Gold Foil Primal Hunter, you know exactly where you can get it. If you are looking for a Gold Foil Martyr Golem, go fk yourself because you're never going to get 1, which is essentially the same scenario as we are in now Pre-Penta Pack era.  ;)
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Interesting_Socks on March 08, 2016, 09:17:47 PM
      Thanks Ori!
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Wayfinder1026 on March 09, 2016, 06:04:10 AM
      you guys should really consider keep the drop rates as were in the 1k test.
      yes getting 1 leg in 100 packs suck.
      so implement a grace system in which the server count packs opened per client and either gives an increased chance at higher end card per pack opened or just straight out counts to a number and once that number is reached you get said high end card 100% on your next pack.
      you guys don't even have to tell us how it works or that a system like that exists.
      also you don't have to implement it THIS patch you can add it next patch.
      just saying that a system like that or something more rng based solves all the issues, w/o hurting the game economy and your profits.

      edit: didn't add that once you do get a high end card counter resets (kind obvious though)

      That's an interesting concept
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Hacker on March 13, 2016, 01:03:56 AM
      A few things.

      firstly prior to the most recent change I opened 99000 LP worth of packs from all packs.

      I got 32 golds, 30 foils 40 epics and less than ten legends.

      This was absolutely crap and probably below par for the average, but if someone is going to invest over 600 US dollars in a game they expect a hell of a lot more than that. I probably opened more packs than anyone in two hits so it was a fair reflection of what one could expect.

      People need to feel, new players that is, that they are getting a fair return for there investment.

      Factionless cards. Fair enough there may be some tweaking in order to get the numbers right for what is driopping but it was logical to have them drop in normal packs, they are a small card pool and contain some of the most importanat cards in the current game.

      People are not going to buy a huge amount of them but if you rely on getting your nartyrs only from thatpack, or even clamity it would have to sell for a higher price. There would end up being a shortage of both those cards in the game.

      The direction taken of including them in all packs was the best one to take.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: ORISOLVE on March 13, 2016, 03:30:43 AM
      I opened more packs prior. You opened a maximum of 660 packs.  ;)

      I disagree. When Factionless cards were included, roughly 3 out of 5 cards in the Faction Booster packs were Factionless. That's an absurd amount, especially when you are paying double the price. Sure, we got some Calamities and Martyr Golems in the packs, but we also got a bunch of useless Factionless cards such as Aleta, Immortal Traveler. These cards replaced the supposed "Faction" cards we were paying for.

      I feel like a good way of going about things is to create a Factionless Pack purchasable with LP and IP at triple (3x) the price. This amount can be reduced when new sets arrive and more Factionless cards are included.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Adorabear on March 13, 2016, 07:42:11 AM
      If theres 5 cards in a penta pack and 1 of them has to be a rare+ then how many are uncommon?

      Is the average pack

      1 rare
      1 uncommon
      3 commons

      Because if thats the case that would make uncommons just as rare as rares. In fact it would make them MORE rare than rares because there are more uncommons to collect than rares and in general they are better cards that you often need full play sets of.

      And if there is 2 uncommons in the pack that would cause the same issue with commons actually being more rare than uncommons.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: wooferdog on March 13, 2016, 10:40:09 AM
      If theres 5 cards in a penta pack and 1 of them has to be a rare+ then how many are uncommon?

      I felt that common/uncommon appeared to have no priority and were treated equal in drop rate. Only when I looked at my final totals did I notice that I have more commons (110) versus uncommons (83).
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Nehkrimah on March 13, 2016, 11:24:15 AM
      If theres 5 cards in a penta pack and 1 of them has to be a rare+ then how many are uncommon?

      In the 500 packs I opened, the ratio would appear to be around 2.5 common, 1.5 Uncommon, 1 Rare.

      The base pack is 4 common and 1 rare, it seems to me that they have reached the correct balance for uncommons, and you also get 5c/3u/1r from daily rewards in the new scheme for the first 3 days.

      In the 500 packs I recorded, there were 1220 commons, 707 Uncommons, 492 Rares
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Pelagoth on May 20, 2016, 07:54:59 AM
      Necrobump. Can someone sticky this or make it easier accessible for reference? New Players Keep asking about rewards and puffy. Would be nice to find it easier than going through all the pages.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Cleanse on May 20, 2016, 08:56:53 AM
      Necrobump. Can someone sticky this or make it easier accessible for reference? New Players Keep asking about rewards and puffy. Would be nice to find it easier than going through all the pages.

      I've added it to the wiki. http://infinity-wars.wikia.com/wiki/Rift_Run

      Can someone confirm that the prize structure is still the same as Rikki's post? Also, are the packs collection packs? I would assume so but it doesn't say.
      Title: Re: [Weekly Post #3] Rift Run Rewards and Penta Packs
      Post by: Pelagoth on May 20, 2016, 09:05:51 AM
      I've added it to the wiki. http://infinity-wars.wikia.com/wiki/Rift_Run
      (http://i.memeful.com/media/post/jRLLKmR_700wa_0.gif)

      Can someone confirm that the prize structure is still the same as Rikki's post? Also, are the packs collection packs? I would assume so but it doesn't say.
      If you mean the guaranteed rare 5 wins, epic 10 wins & leg 21 wins, then yes, I can confirm. I can also confirm the top 50 placement rewards.