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Infinity Wars => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: electro13 on June 16, 2015, 09:52:48 PM

Title: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 16, 2015, 09:52:48 PM
MK so, lots of debate on which set was best. So, poll. Ez solution. Feel free to leave your reasons in the comments and tell me why everyone else is stupid for not agreeing with you. Kthx <3
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: TheRealTuna on June 16, 2015, 10:02:54 PM
I need a "Not Oppression" category plz
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: goobypls on June 16, 2015, 10:16:56 PM
Well, the best set might be Core, but Oppression has Cowmmando.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Teremus on June 16, 2015, 11:09:34 PM
Unhinged.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Cleanse on June 16, 2015, 11:13:17 PM
Invalid poll, doesn't include Omni or Star Trek.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 16, 2015, 11:30:54 PM
I sorta just gave omni one mental vote for jg since he has an obsession for dugg, and star trek is clearly the best set so didn't need to be listed.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Winsanity on June 17, 2015, 12:26:53 AM
Well, early investigation seems to show that Oppression has been the most balanced set so far, but of course it's only been out a couple days so it hasn't been broken yet. THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: CommunistMountain on June 17, 2015, 02:57:25 AM
Oppression really shook up the meta like none of the other previous sets neither Ascension or Order did in my opinion. I'm scared, to be honest, but hopeful as well.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Adorabear on June 17, 2015, 03:09:17 AM
Most of the people voting in the poll weren't even around for the release of half the sets lol
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Winsanity on June 17, 2015, 03:10:51 AM
Most of the people voting in the poll weren't even around for the release of half the sets lol
I was around for the release of the last 2. My opinion is valid damn it!
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: CommunistMountain on June 17, 2015, 03:59:25 AM
I was around for the last 3. But yes, I am just assuming based on my experience with Ascension and Order. Will edit my post to be more correct.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: 6000j on June 17, 2015, 07:22:39 AM
Unhinged.
So true :D
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 17, 2015, 08:30:31 AM
No puffy you dorby. I don't need to be informed to make decisions. I live in America, the land of I'm always right.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: martenus on June 17, 2015, 09:26:23 AM
Problem with this poll is the timing. After Oppresion out not even a Week it has the new and shinny bonus for sure =) So it gets lots of extra votes for that.  I liked asccension the most because i liked the Idia of the Titans. Iam a Big sucker for 3 Purity Decks and those Titans made playin 3purity interessting.(i know balaance was a huge problem aslo )

What i do not like about Opression is that it narrows the Meta even more in my very early Opinion and also the huge mass of overcharge Cards where in there current state 80% seem useless because the overcharge effect is not worth it.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: CommunistMountain on June 17, 2015, 10:23:02 AM
Timing is not an issue, and I don't think people would laud Oppression as the best set just because they got Platinum cards (I hope). I know many people who disliked Ascension and Order when they came out, including myself. The rest of the sets having little votes is probably due to players not being around to really enjoy them.

Overcharge isn't a useless mechanic. It offers an additional dimension of strategy, and separates the mediocre from the good players. Of course, some cards with Overcharge are worse than others.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: martenus on June 17, 2015, 01:18:53 PM
In my personal experiance thats exactly the case something is new everyone wants it :P it makes a diffrence i think . I also didnt say overcharge is a bad mecanic i sayed 80% of the cards of this expansion are not worth to be overcharged because the effect is to weak so no one will play tham so its a waste of cards.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Heaven-Canceler on June 17, 2015, 01:31:01 PM
Most of the use to get out of an Overcharge Card is to get rid of dead Draws. Like a 1 Drop in the mide-to late game for example. Or an artefact-hate card when your Opponent is playing Warpath.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 17, 2015, 07:58:10 PM
Yeah, I'm fairly sure no one would have said order was the best set ever released when it came out :P
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: ORISOLVE on June 17, 2015, 09:20:56 PM
This poll isn't accurate, everyone voting obviously only participated in the Oppression set. In my opinion Oppression is the worst set ever launched. Order at least gave us Noble Protector and Overcharged Storm, and the Thralls. Ascension was the best set. It gave us Avatar of Lingbao and all the other Titans. The huge hype for DoD being "balanced" was a lie. I can tell just from the DoD cards launched in this set, that neither the card designers nor any of the council members have ever played DoD in their lives. I can also tell by the fact that every single premade DoD deck ever provided never had any UMPHHH. If this is the idea of "balancing" DoD, please recruit Council members that actually understand how DoD is suppose to be played. This set was the most boring set to date. There were no interesting mechanic cards. The overcharge mechanic was old news. Order at least had Tormented Thralls and GI Spy. You guys spent way too much time "balancing" instead of making the game fun, interesting, and unpredictable. Balancing should be done with a balance patch, not during the implementation of a new set. Oppression was my least favorite set, because I can't even name a single card that was my favorite out of the whole set. They are too "balanced" and boring. We need more cards like Shikana, not like Cowmmando a complete copy of a worst Best Fiend. The whole Oppression set felt like a copy of a copy of older cards. Look at forerunner of the Champions, a copy of Master of Demons. Look at Yagron, a copy of Ritual Master. Look at Liand, a copy of Vigilant Warrior. Look at Tempus, a copy of Demonborn. Look at Kidnapped by Demons, a copy of Verore Kidnapper. I could go on and on for every single card in this set. If this trend continues, every single card will be a Yobo eventually. Please don't force me to make a 40 card deck filled with Yobo's. I want cards like Sydern, Infiltrate, Ruins of Veroria, Enyah, Mad Monk. Okay, not Mad Monk specifically, but you get my point.

RANT OVER!!!!!!!! >:(


Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MerliniX on June 17, 2015, 09:59:28 PM
This poll isn't accurate, everyone voting obviously only participated in the Oppression set. In my opinion Oppression is the worst set ever launched. Order at least gave us Noble Protector and Overcharged Storm, and the Thralls. Ascension was the best set. It gave us Avatar of Lingbao and all the other Titans. The huge hype for DoD being "balanced" was a lie. I can tell just from the DoD cards launched in this set, that neither the card designers nor any of the council members have ever played DoD in their lives. I can also tell by the fact that every single premade DoD deck ever provided never had any UMPHHH. If this is the idea of "balancing" DoD, please recruit Council members that actually understand how DoD is suppose to be played. This set was the most boring set to date. There were no interesting mechanic cards. The overcharge mechanic was old news. Order at least had Tormented Thralls and GI Spy. You guys spent way too much time "balancing" instead of making the game fun, interesting, and unpredictable. Balancing should be done with a balance patch, not during the implementation of a new set. Oppression was my least favorite set, because I can't even name a single card that was my favorite out of the whole set. They are too "balanced" and boring. We need more cards like Shikana, not like Cowmmando a complete copy of a worst Best Fiend. The whole Oppression set felt like a copy of a copy of older cards. Look at forerunner of the Champions, a copy of Master of Demons. Look at Yagron, a copy of Ritual Master. Look at Liand, a copy of Vigilant Warrior. Look at Tempus, a copy of Demonborn. Look at Kidnapped by Demons, a copy of Verore Kidnapper. I could go on and on for every single card in this set. If this trend continues, every single card will be a Yobo eventually. Please don't force me to make a 40 card deck filled with Yobo's. I want cards like Sydern, Infiltrate, Ruins of Veroria, Enyah, Mad Monk. Okay, not Mad Monk specifically, but you get my point.

RANT OVER!!!!!!!! >:(

I will beat any deck you can field with a 1p 2p or 3p DoD deck this patch. Let me know what purity of DoD you want me to play.

I will even stream it.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 17, 2015, 10:02:34 PM
I can tell just from the DoD cards launched in this set, that neither the card designers nor any of the council members have ever played DoD in their lives. I can also tell by the fact that every single premade DoD deck ever provided never had any UMPHHH. If this is the idea of "balancing" DoD, please recruit Council members that actually understand how DoD is suppose to be played.

Do you know who Rebellion is?
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: ORISOLVE on June 17, 2015, 10:11:12 PM
I can tell just from the DoD cards launched in this set, that neither the card designers nor any of the council members have ever played DoD in their lives. I can also tell by the fact that every single premade DoD deck ever provided never had any UMPHHH. If this is the idea of "balancing" DoD, please recruit Council members that actually understand how DoD is suppose to be played.

Do you know who Rebellion is?

Nope  ;D



I will beat any deck you can field with a 1p 2p or 3p DoD deck this patch. Let me know what purity of DoD you want me to play.

I will even stream it.

Challenge accepted after the balance patch though.  ;D

Or whenever either 1 of the following cards changes: Pacifying Winds or Counting the Days.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MerliniX on June 17, 2015, 10:15:07 PM
I can tell just from the DoD cards launched in this set, that neither the card designers nor any of the council members have ever played DoD in their lives. I can also tell by the fact that every single premade DoD deck ever provided never had any UMPHHH. If this is the idea of "balancing" DoD, please recruit Council members that actually understand how DoD is suppose to be played.

Do you know who Rebellion is?

Nope  ;D



I will beat any deck you can field with a 1p 2p or 3p DoD deck this patch. Let me know what purity of DoD you want me to play.

I will even stream it.

Challenge accepted after the balance patch though.  ;D

After the balance patch is, notably, not 'this patch'.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: TheCable on June 17, 2015, 10:22:45 PM
Most of the use to get out of an Overcharge Card is to get rid of dead Draws. Like a 1 Drop in the mide-to late game for example. Or an artefact-hate card when your Opponent is playing Warpath.

True, but you could also shuffle them away and draw another card with marketplace. For some effects the tempo gain is really powerful, but overall I feel like the mechanic just isn't that fun.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 17, 2015, 10:41:59 PM
Most of the use to get out of an Overcharge Card is to get rid of dead Draws. Like a 1 Drop in the mide-to late game for example. Or an artefact-hate card when your Opponent is playing Warpath.

True, but you could also shuffle them away and draw another card with marketplace. For some effects the tempo gain is really powerful, but overall I feel like the mechanic just isn't that fun.

Shuffling them away leaves you with drawing it again later. The added power from the removal of the card is imo a better tempo play than shuffling it.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: quelsatron on June 17, 2015, 10:55:01 PM
The whole Oppression set felt like a copy of a copy of older cards. Look at forerunner of the Champions, a copy of Master of Demons. Look at Yagron, a copy of Ritual Master. Look at Liand, a copy of Vigilant Warrior. Look at Tempus, a copy of Demonborn. Look at Kidnapped by Demons, a copy of Verore Kidnapper. I could go on and on for every single card in this set. If this trend continues, every single card will be a Yobo eventually. Please don't force me to make a 40 card deck filled with Yobo's. I want cards like Sydern, Infiltrate, Ruins of Veroria, Enyah, Mad Monk. Okay, not Mad Monk specifically, but you get my point.

RANT OVER!!!!!!!! >:(
You could go on and you would be again be wrong on every single count. What a stupid post.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MakinoMane on June 18, 2015, 03:47:05 AM
Oppression really shook up the meta like none of the other previous sets neither Ascension or Order did in my opinion. I'm scared, to be honest, but hopeful as well.

Then you clearly came way after the release of Ascension. Ascension rocked the meta like no other! Before Ascension, Exiles were almost never seen in Ranked play. Ascension brought Exiles into the top meta deck with Demonic Presence at 1 purity and the crazy-ness that was Mad Monk at the time before his nerf as well. Not only that, but this was also the set that released the Titan cards and a ton of staple cards for most decks we see now.

In my opinion, Ascension is still the best set to be released. Why? Because opening the Titans was by far the funnest thing ever in IW so far. Just seeing the extremely high cost cards were so ridiculously awesome, that I couldn't wait to try out the Titans
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: martenus on June 18, 2015, 05:32:04 AM
Merlin can you explain to me how tripple dod works ? Sure double purity dod has 2 very strong decks but the arent Dod Decks so to say one is a mill deck with win condition the other is a Rush Deck with a Legendary that is clearly a FD Spy and abuse of a bunker:P Only way i see tripple dod working in a competive manner is when you make weaker wannabe versions of the 2 decks at least as as my deckbuilding skills go. I think what Orisolve means is DoD style DoD deck so defend  fortress until counting days triggers or you get your avatars out to play. Thats still very very hard.

Also Orisolve there was some very Fun cards! I like the Dojo from DoD alot i like Struggle for Power i like Demon of the Dark Bargain, Tinker also a cool idia so i would not say there was no cool cards there was alot it only gets overshadowed a bit by so much Overcharge cards and lots of tham seem to weak atm if thats fixed could be really good expansion atleast =)
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: CommunistMountain on June 18, 2015, 09:40:35 AM
Merlin can you explain to me how tripple dod works ?
I'm not Merlin, but I think I can answer that: Avatars.

I didn't like the Titans, because most were not very fun to play against, and when playing with them, simply having an almost guaranteed win after playing things like Oblivion, Omnitron and Avatar of Lingbao is not really to my taste.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: suli on June 18, 2015, 11:31:24 AM
I have been testing triple dod avatar decks with good success rate at pubs, but it still can fail against well executed rush (regardless of purity) and certain exile decks. I can only reach a proper conclusion after testing them in ranked.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: martenus on June 18, 2015, 03:22:55 PM
Suli and communist never seen a working avatar deck!! Please Enlighten me !
My win rate with opression decks sofar against avatar decks is like 90%. I never meet one of the topplayers playing tripple dod so no clue if thats the probllem maybe. And iam a very average player. Also tryed to make one myself but with not much succsess. Main  Problem is the are slow and feel so clunky. Only tripple dod i got working was very cheapcreautes without any avatars and massive abuse of the dojo.
And this only works if i get dojo early and it also works lots better with double dod and fd or zombies.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: CommunistMountain on June 18, 2015, 11:36:12 PM
One way of ensuring a defense against early rush is Gaohan in Command. Also, in the event of Verore Kidnapper and Kidnapped By Demons removing them from play, having more Avatars in deck will help. When you get your kidnapped Avatar back you'll have 2 Unique characters in play!

That said, I realised the Exiles have many options against Avatars. Other than above, there is Demonise, Dehumanise, Wholesale Slaughter and Descent Into Madness. Verore also has Voracious Goliath. It is worth noting that Hubris is good against Avatars as unlike killing them, it will not reset their stats while making them non-threats, if only for 1 turn more.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: suli on June 19, 2015, 01:48:51 AM
Yep, multiple avatars and Dojos. They kidnapped an avatar? no problem deploy another avatar until you kill the kidnappers and have double. They ramped to 11 resources for calamity? no problem send everyone to dojo in your priority, send them back to assault/defense in theirs. I pretty much find late game almost guaranteed if I reach it, unless I am playing against omnitron, and unpredictable exile yuck.

EDIT: Also, 3 nobles for a possible turn 5 avatar!
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Nehkrimah on June 19, 2015, 05:10:56 AM
wow, dojo for multiple avatars, I have to do this!
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: martenus on June 19, 2015, 05:23:03 AM
well kill a kidnapper with a tripple dod deck us very hard and purly luck based only way to do so is play firebolts or have mega luck with double wraath. my problem is that against a good deck rush or control you eather dead by round 7 or the have that much control at there fingertipps that your avatars are gone as the hit table :P But please post a deck list no tripple dot has been posted sofar will try to take yours for a spin and report backj here.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: suli on June 19, 2015, 09:41:00 AM
Martenus, I will post the deck at the deck buidling section. Be warned, however that I still don't consider it fully optimized yet.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Zer0K on June 19, 2015, 04:24:30 PM
Pre-Oppresion I was running an avatar deck that worked quite well, but I haven't picked it up again. Main reason for this is that every deck with overseers (and there are a lot of those) is running the box. Not only does it stop your avatar, it also resets the stats. For the same reason I deleted balance golem from my list of decks.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 21, 2015, 02:44:39 AM
Pre-Oppresion I was running an avatar deck that worked quite well, but I haven't picked it up again. Main reason for this is that every deck with overseers (and there are a lot of those) is running the box. Not only does it stop your avatar, it also resets the stats. For the same reason I deleted balance golem from my list of decks.

To be honest, the new overly aggressive angel playstyle will defeat an avatar oriented deck before the avatars come out.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MakinoMane on June 21, 2015, 11:19:31 PM
Pre-Oppresion I was running an avatar deck that worked quite well, but I haven't picked it up again. Main reason for this is that every deck with overseers (and there are a lot of those) is running the box. Not only does it stop your avatar, it also resets the stats. For the same reason I deleted balance golem from my list of decks.

To be honest, the new overly aggressive angel playstyle will defeat an avatar oriented deck before the avatars come out.

I have to agree with this. The Overseers got good again with Oppression. They were very very lackluster before, and the Forerunner of the Champions really gave them their oomph back.

The Avatars are good, but you need to get a good set up going before you can get them out. I advise using some decent low cost cards to increase your chances of lasting to turn 7. Personally, I've gone back to using Meditating Monk in command and using Xi, Who Honors the Many/Spirit Armour to hold my defense Zone in the early game. With Adaptive Master in command as well for a beefy character to assist the stall. He's a 7/13 that can get rid of a useless card depending on the situation and I find him quite useful for stalling out a few turns. I'm also using triple Echo of the Battlefield, so when they do die, a new defender goes straight to the field and actually starts blocking the same turn the others die. Giving additional defense against those hard aggro decks.

This all seems to work well for me to stall out to turn 7. Maybe you can consider trying something like this out? Something that promotes the defense early game and transitions to a power Avatar deck late game.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: sketmachine13 on June 22, 2015, 06:04:21 AM
As a Swarmer main, ORDER is the best set as it gave us Broodlord HAHA Caretaker of the Swarm.

Hopefully, the next set will include more swarmer cards. I'd be happy with even a single new swarmer card card (that isn't the new faction's swarmer).
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: toon310 on June 27, 2015, 04:25:13 PM
oppression is the best set so far for its originality and because it introduces some new nice mechanics.

but i consider also that oppression is the worst set so far because i find it very unbalanced, there are things i clearly don't understand, things that are breaking the game :

- avatars
- counting the days
- pacifying winds
- mysterious box
- champion follower
- craps epics and legendaries !
- and on the other side you find that awesome klore !

and so on...

something is wrong, i don't like oppression.

i vote for IW2013
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MerliniX on June 27, 2015, 06:01:34 PM
oppression is the best set so far for its originality and because it introduces some new nice mechanics.

but i consider also that oppression is the worst set so far because i find it very unbalanced, there are things i clearly don't undestand, things that are breaking the game :

- avatars
- couting the days
- pacifying winds
- mysterious box
- champion follower
- craps epics and legendaries !
- and on the other side you find that awesome klore !

and so on...

something is wrong, i don't like oppression.

i vote for IW2013

Pacifying Winds was just changed - do you mean it is still too powerful?

I will agree with you on the BS that is Counting the Days, but the rest of those I don't find unbalanced at all. Might just be me though.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: ecliptix on June 27, 2015, 06:48:15 PM
Eh, mysterious box is borderline imo. Not because of what it does, but because its 1p. Sacullus was changed to 2p for a similar issue, it might be worth starting a similar discussion with the box.

Just saying, when some people splash a faction for ONE card, you might wanna reconsider how easy it is to splash that card. I'd make the same argument against fear but sleepers are dead -  :'( - so its significantly less relevant.

Sleepers Revival tour - 2016
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Grinnin_Gin on June 27, 2015, 09:48:52 PM
Eh, mysterious box is borderline imo. Not because of what it does, but because its 1p. Sacullus was changed to 2p for a similar issue, it might be worth starting a similar discussion with the box.

Just saying, when some people splash a faction for ONE card, you might wanna reconsider how easy it is to splash that card. I'd make the same argument against fear but sleepers are dead -  :'( - so its significantly less relevant.

Sleepers Revival tour - 2016

Notably Overseers have many, many good tools at 1 purity beyond box.

Higher Calling (8/8 + Flying for 4 is bonkers)
Zealous Protector (this is actually a very good defender tbh, and gets really really scary with any form of buff)
Consecration (extremely good sideboard card)
Oppress (main board/sideboard card)
Tyra, the Burden of War (burn card that punishes card build up)
Cassial, the Selfless (martyr golem)
Ascended Girls
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: suli on June 27, 2015, 10:26:29 PM
Eh, mysterious box is borderline imo. Not because of what it does, but because its 1p. Sacullus was changed to 2p for a similar issue, it might be worth starting a similar discussion with the box.

Just saying, when some people splash a faction for ONE card, you might wanna reconsider how easy it is to splash that card. I'd make the same argument against fear but sleepers are dead -  :'( - so its significantly less relevant.

Sleepers Revival tour - 2016

mysterious box reminds me of noble protector at its height, when people used to splash FD just to have him in command or withing main deck.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 28, 2015, 02:10:34 AM
oppression is the best set so far for its originality and because it introduces some new nice mechanics.

but i consider also that oppression is the worst set so far because i find it very unbalanced, there are things i clearly don't undestand, things that are breaking the game :

- avatars
- couting the days
- pacifying winds
- mysterious box
- champion follower
- craps epics and legendaries !
- and on the other side you find that awesome klore !

and so on...

something is wrong, i don't like oppression.

i vote for IW2013

Don't forget Forerunner and Tempus, otherwise I agree that Oppression released a lot of unbalanced cards, particularly in the angel faction.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: toon310 on June 28, 2015, 09:01:53 AM
Yep you are right^^ that's why i said :"and so on".

angels's faction 's power increased a lot
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: toon310 on June 28, 2015, 09:22:19 AM


Pacifying Winds was just changed - do you mean it is still too powerful?

I will agree with you on the BS that is Counting the Days, but the rest of those I don't find unbalanced at all. Might just be me though.


Yes i still think pacifying wind is a bit broken. I had a whole army once destroyed by the combo : shifting stone + winds, that was hilarious :p this was worst before but i still find it a bit op (but i like it ! i like the mechanic ! i like what it brings to dod !). the effect is huge and applies to a lot of characters (for a 4 cost i think).

i won't argue long because i 'm in a hurry right now.

i think a card needs balance when it's hard to find a way to deal with it : eg avatars can't simply die and are a huge threat to decks that doesn't have any removals. put your avatars in the defense zone and let your opponent crush them.. they diedd ? Bah no problem, they come to life again and again unless your opponent has a removal (and not any kind of removal called shot won't work for instance).

same thing for the box :  1p, and nearly a free CTA. How do you want to counter it ?

and angels became so strong... again ! they remind me of the old angels from ascension.

i won't play ranked this season unless i'm forced for my videos (i don't want to break my computer :p). As Ragnoraok said, there are more cards that i could have listed and i think the set needs a lot of balance.

Kidnapped by demons for instance : 1 purity wow :) guess what ? i put 2 in a deck where i already had 3 CTA ^^ the nice joke. I added 3 demonize also rofl ....

Still the new set is fun and introduces a lot of fresh and cool stuff.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Grinnin_Gin on June 28, 2015, 04:41:33 PM
I totally disagree with most of the assertions made about overseers suddenly returning to Ascension levels of BS. They have a lot more interesting counter play and many, many fair cards that can be beaten by many different decks.

The only cards to watch out for in overseers, in my honest opinion, are Box (primarily because the sacullas interaction can get a bit crazy), and Higher Calling (because that card has always been kind of BS).

The other balance outliers I personally see are Counting The Days (puffy stall) and maybe Tinker for Power, which ik many people disagree with. Other than those things, the game is extremely well balanced, and for the better. Like, I'm fine with Shifting Stone + Pacifying Winds being a psuedo mass death, you do have to dump your hand for that to happen, so it's more comparable to a worse overcharged storm. I think time has proven that the Avatars are quite strong, but not a real balancing issue for now, given that there are sooooooooooooooooooo many ways to deal with them, either for a turn to push through for game, or forever via RFG or Transform mechanics.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Interesting_Socks on June 28, 2015, 05:01:06 PM
You can't have lots of broken cards. That's a concept that doesn't make sense lol.

You can have an unhealthy metagame, which should be any arguments against Avatars, Counting the Days, Box or whatever it is that annoys you.

For the record 3oos was one of the best 3p factions last season. I won the single faction tournament with them and the final was a 3oos mirror match. I used them in ranked to get to the top 10 during the thrall era. They also had one of the best win percentages in the 'top 8' tournament.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 28, 2015, 06:14:04 PM
I totally disagree with most of the assertions made about overseers suddenly returning to Ascension levels of BS. They have a lot more interesting counter play and many, many fair cards that can be beaten by many different decks.

The only cards to watch out for in overseers, in my honest opinion, are Box (primarily because the sacullas interaction can get a bit crazy), and Higher Calling (because that card has always been kind of BS).

The other balance outliers I personally see are Counting The Days (puffy stall) and maybe Tinker for Power, which ik many people disagree with. Other than those things, the game is extremely well balanced, and for the better. Like, I'm fine with Shifting Stone + Pacifying Winds being a psuedo mass death, you do have to dump your hand for that to happen, so it's more comparable to a worse overcharged storm. I think time has proven that the Avatars are quite strong, but not a real balancing issue for now, given that there are sooooooooooooooooooo many ways to deal with them, either for a turn to push through for game, or forever via RFG or Transform mechanics.

I heard that before the Champion status was introduced, it was common to have a swarm of +5/5 angels with flying by turn 5. I don't believe that Overseers has reached that level of power, but cards such as Foreunner are not balanced. It is insane for a card to singlehandedly make Overseers much more effective at rushdown than FD; which alone justifies the card being imbalanced. The egregious damage scaling makes it extremely difficult to handle multiple copies of this card, because having at least 2 champions makes it easy to bounce them back and forth; worst of all, there is no way to even kill the champions if they are being sent back to the hand.

Box of Wonders is borderline OP. Melosia is hella unbalanced, and I am surprised noone has made a stink about this card. It effectively makes an aggro or swarm strategy simultaneously effective at morale degradation. Moreover, Equilibrium has the potential to be ridiculous when used in conjunction with that card that makes a 2/2 angel token for every monster the opponent has; an opponent can use the aforementioned token summoner card, then next turn use Equilibrium to effectively clear a troublesome field. This strategy was broken in Hearthstone (Equality + Consecration), and will undoubtedly be abused here later on down the line.

These cards are toxic to the game, because they allow the Overseers faction to encroach upon the specialties of other factions, primarily FD and DoD.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 28, 2015, 06:15:41 PM
Also, what is the Pacifying Winds and Shifting Stone combo, and how does that lead to a pseudo Mass death scenario.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: SwatAK on June 28, 2015, 06:29:36 PM
Also, what is the Pacifying Winds and Shifting Stone combo, and how does that lead to a pseudo Mass death scenario.
in the best case its 3 characters dead and ur hand is messed up idk how the hell is that anywhere near mass death
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Githian on June 28, 2015, 08:05:52 PM
I totally disagree with most of the assertions made about overseers suddenly returning to Ascension levels of BS. They have a lot more interesting counter play and many, many fair cards that can be beaten by many different decks.

The only cards to watch out for in overseers, in my honest opinion, are Box (primarily because the sacullas interaction can get a bit crazy), and Higher Calling (because that card has always been kind of BS).

The other balance outliers I personally see are Counting The Days (puffy stall) and maybe Tinker for Power, which ik many people disagree with. Other than those things, the game is extremely well balanced, and for the better. Like, I'm fine with Shifting Stone + Pacifying Winds being a psuedo mass death, you do have to dump your hand for that to happen, so it's more comparable to a worse overcharged storm. I think time has proven that the Avatars are quite strong, but not a real balancing issue for now, given that there are sooooooooooooooooooo many ways to deal with them, either for a turn to push through for game, or forever via RFG or Transform mechanics.

I heard that before the Champion status was introduced, it was common to have a swarm of +5/5 angels with flying by turn 5. I don't believe that Overseers has reached that level of power, but cards such as Foreunner are not balanced. It is insane for a card to singlehandedly make Overseers much more effective at rushdown than FD; which alone justifies the card being imbalanced. The egregious damage scaling makes it extremely difficult to handle multiple copies of this card, because having at least 2 champions makes it easy to bounce them back and forth; worst of all, there is no way to even kill the champions if they are being sent back to the hand.

Box of Wonders is borderline OP. Melosia is hella unbalanced, and I am surprised noone has made a stink about this card. It effectively makes an aggro or swarm strategy simultaneously effective at morale degradation. Moreover, Equilibrium has the potential to be ridiculous when used in conjunction with that card that makes a 2/2 angel token for every monster the opponent has; an opponent can use the aforementioned token summoner card, then next turn use Equilibrium to effectively clear a troublesome field. This strategy was broken in Hearthstone (Equality + Consecration), and will undoubtedly be abused here later on down the line.

These cards are toxic to the game, because they allow the Overseers faction to encroach upon the specialties of other factions, primarily FD and DoD.

I stopped reading when you said Melosia is unbalanced.

The only things I could see getting a change in the current meta are Box (two purity so it's not a card you splash for anymore) and maybe Counting the Days because of the playstyle it promotes.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 28, 2015, 08:11:30 PM
I totally disagree with most of the assertions made about overseers suddenly returning to Ascension levels of BS. They have a lot more interesting counter play and many, many fair cards that can be beaten by many different decks.

The only cards to watch out for in overseers, in my honest opinion, are Box (primarily because the sacullas interaction can get a bit crazy), and Higher Calling (because that card has always been kind of BS).

The other balance outliers I personally see are Counting The Days (puffy stall) and maybe Tinker for Power, which ik many people disagree with. Other than those things, the game is extremely well balanced, and for the better. Like, I'm fine with Shifting Stone + Pacifying Winds being a psuedo mass death, you do have to dump your hand for that to happen, so it's more comparable to a worse overcharged storm. I think time has proven that the Avatars are quite strong, but not a real balancing issue for now, given that there are sooooooooooooooooooo many ways to deal with them, either for a turn to push through for game, or forever via RFG or Transform mechanics.

I heard that before the Champion status was introduced, it was common to have a swarm of +5/5 angels with flying by turn 5. I don't believe that Overseers has reached that level of power, but cards such as Foreunner are not balanced. It is insane for a card to singlehandedly make Overseers much more effective at rushdown than FD; which alone justifies the card being imbalanced. The egregious damage scaling makes it extremely difficult to handle multiple copies of this card, because having at least 2 champions makes it easy to bounce them back and forth; worst of all, there is no way to even kill the champions if they are being sent back to the hand.

Box of Wonders is borderline OP. Melosia is hella unbalanced, and I am surprised noone has made a stink about this card. It effectively makes an aggro or swarm strategy simultaneously effective at morale degradation. Moreover, Equilibrium has the potential to be ridiculous when used in conjunction with that card that makes a 2/2 angel token for every monster the opponent has; an opponent can use the aforementioned token summoner card, then next turn use Equilibrium to effectively clear a troublesome field. This strategy was broken in Hearthstone (Equality + Consecration), and will undoubtedly be abused here later on down the line.

These cards are toxic to the game, because they allow the Overseers faction to encroach upon the specialties of other factions, primarily FD and DoD.

I stopped reading when you said Melosia is unbalanced.

The only things I could see getting a change in the current meta are Box (two purity so it's not a card you splash for anymore) and maybe Counting the Days because of the playstyle it promotes.

At least hear my justification for Melosia.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Githian on June 28, 2015, 08:18:47 PM
I totally disagree with most of the assertions made about overseers suddenly returning to Ascension levels of BS. They have a lot more interesting counter play and many, many fair cards that can be beaten by many different decks.

The only cards to watch out for in overseers, in my honest opinion, are Box (primarily because the sacullas interaction can get a bit crazy), and Higher Calling (because that card has always been kind of BS).

The other balance outliers I personally see are Counting The Days (puffy stall) and maybe Tinker for Power, which ik many people disagree with. Other than those things, the game is extremely well balanced, and for the better. Like, I'm fine with Shifting Stone + Pacifying Winds being a psuedo mass death, you do have to dump your hand for that to happen, so it's more comparable to a worse overcharged storm. I think time has proven that the Avatars are quite strong, but not a real balancing issue for now, given that there are sooooooooooooooooooo many ways to deal with them, either for a turn to push through for game, or forever via RFG or Transform mechanics.

I heard that before the Champion status was introduced, it was common to have a swarm of +5/5 angels with flying by turn 5. I don't believe that Overseers has reached that level of power, but cards such as Foreunner are not balanced. It is insane for a card to singlehandedly make Overseers much more effective at rushdown than FD; which alone justifies the card being imbalanced. The egregious damage scaling makes it extremely difficult to handle multiple copies of this card, because having at least 2 champions makes it easy to bounce them back and forth; worst of all, there is no way to even kill the champions if they are being sent back to the hand.

Box of Wonders is borderline OP. Melosia is hella unbalanced, and I am surprised noone has made a stink about this card. It effectively makes an aggro or swarm strategy simultaneously effective at morale degradation. Moreover, Equilibrium has the potential to be ridiculous when used in conjunction with that card that makes a 2/2 angel token for every monster the opponent has; an opponent can use the aforementioned token summoner card, then next turn use Equilibrium to effectively clear a troublesome field. This strategy was broken in Hearthstone (Equality + Consecration), and will undoubtedly be abused here later on down the line.

These cards are toxic to the game, because they allow the Overseers faction to encroach upon the specialties of other factions, primarily FD and DoD.

I stopped reading when you said Melosia is unbalanced.

The only things I could see getting a change in the current meta are Box (two purity so it's not a card you splash for anymore) and maybe Counting the Days because of the playstyle it promotes.

At least hear my justification for Melosia.

I'd love to.

In the meantime, I'll say that I see the problem with Equilibrium+Heaven's Assistance, though I don't like the comparison with the Hearthstone combo since this one take two turns and can be outplayed. If anything, the unbalance comes from Heaven's Assistance, but that's another old story.

Can't really agree with Pacifying Winds+Shifting Stone being a pseudo MD. Maybe a pseudo-Overcharged Storm, and even that is a big stretch.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 28, 2015, 08:20:39 PM
I totally disagree with most of the assertions made about overseers suddenly returning to Ascension levels of BS. They have a lot more interesting counter play and many, many fair cards that can be beaten by many different decks.

The only cards to watch out for in overseers, in my honest opinion, are Box (primarily because the sacullas interaction can get a bit crazy), and Higher Calling (because that card has always been kind of BS).

The other balance outliers I personally see are Counting The Days (puffy stall) and maybe Tinker for Power, which ik many people disagree with. Other than those things, the game is extremely well balanced, and for the better. Like, I'm fine with Shifting Stone + Pacifying Winds being a psuedo mass death, you do have to dump your hand for that to happen, so it's more comparable to a worse overcharged storm. I think time has proven that the Avatars are quite strong, but not a real balancing issue for now, given that there are sooooooooooooooooooo many ways to deal with them, either for a turn to push through for game, or forever via RFG or Transform mechanics.

I heard that before the Champion status was introduced, it was common to have a swarm of +5/5 angels with flying by turn 5. I don't believe that Overseers has reached that level of power, but cards such as Foreunner are not balanced. It is insane for a card to singlehandedly make Overseers much more effective at rushdown than FD; which alone justifies the card being imbalanced. The egregious damage scaling makes it extremely difficult to handle multiple copies of this card, because having at least 2 champions makes it easy to bounce them back and forth; worst of all, there is no way to even kill the champions if they are being sent back to the hand.

Box of Wonders is borderline OP. Melosia is hella unbalanced, and I am surprised noone has made a stink about this card. It effectively makes an aggro or swarm strategy simultaneously effective at morale degradation. Moreover, Equilibrium has the potential to be ridiculous when used in conjunction with that card that makes a 2/2 angel token for every monster the opponent has; an opponent can use the aforementioned token summoner card, then next turn use Equilibrium to effectively clear a troublesome field. This strategy was broken in Hearthstone (Equality + Consecration), and will undoubtedly be abused here later on down the line.

These cards are toxic to the game, because they allow the Overseers faction to encroach upon the specialties of other factions, primarily FD and DoD.

I stopped reading when you said Melosia is unbalanced.

The only things I could see getting a change in the current meta are Box (two purity so it's not a card you splash for anymore) and maybe Counting the Days because of the playstyle it promotes.

+1000000000
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 28, 2015, 08:25:03 PM
A swarm of creatures can attack the fortress while simultaneously reducing the morale of the opponent by the same amount. In an angel deck, this can allow a player another win condition; once the angels are put under control, the opponent will have next to no morale, so at that point, all thats needed is to trade bodies and use spells to kill high morale monsters. Essentially, a player can play an aggro AND morale degradation deck simultaneously. Similarly, a splash of DoD makes this strategy better at reducing morale than a double or triple DoD deck.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 28, 2015, 08:32:07 PM
In regards to Equilibrium, a player can get rid of troublesome attackers/defenders using the method I described (abusing tokens), then there is nothing around that. Also, an opponent can use Equilibrium, then use Heat Wave or Combustion next turn. Above all, it makes no sense for Overseers to have that card.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Seidlce on June 28, 2015, 10:05:14 PM
If you already have a swarm of creatures to attack (and lower morale) with, why would you need to win based on morale?
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Grinnin_Gin on June 28, 2015, 10:38:26 PM
Melosia + HA Tokens + Lingbao's Will allows for 1 huge swing, but thats honestly more of a problem with Lingbao's will breaking all interesting morale-based cards, and Heaven's Assistance being a pretty stupid token generator card.

Equilibrium is an excellent control card and is an example of some interesting mechanics we are seeing being introduced into Overseers, where they are very much a 'jack of all trades' aggro faction with decent battle control tools. When you say it ''makes no sense for Oversers to have this card'', may I ask what you are basing what ''Overseers should have'' on?

Also, Forerunner of the Champions is honestly a fine card, the command zone that takes advantage of it is highly beatable. The thing is that it might require some adjustments to existing deck lists in order to react, but I can list off many outs that factions have currently to this command zone. If a command zone is counterable, has interesting counterplay, and is overall interactive, then I think it is a good thing to have.

I will say that the mana curve for some factions could use some further fleshing out (WP and Exiles having few low drops, FD needing a bit more of a late game that isnt calamity or fear/ferocity combos, CoV needing a few more characters), but overall I think that the current game is evolved enough to where Tempus + Forerunner commands are fine. The deck is powerful, the deck is good, but it is a healthy deck, and it is balanced. I raised the same concerns back during beta testing of the set, I thought it's damage output was absolutely outrageous, but the tools oppression has introduce render it a lot less threatening. If you threw Tempus/Forerunner commands into Order's meta, it would be incredibly strong, but Tempus and Forerunner were not the only cards introduced this set. 3 DoD vs 3 OoS match up (which used to be hilariously in OoS favor) is now extremely interesting due to Gao Han Stalwart's popularity, Lance of Jinhai, and other interesting tools the faction has gotten, along with Overseers getting Equilibrium, which can definitely mess up a DoD player's day.

I think Oppression has introduced more soft counters, more interesting match ups, and is a lot more skill based then the last meta, and most older players agree with this assessment. The only exception to this is Counting the Days which nearly everyone hates with the blinding fury of 1000 suns.

But overall, the direction of Overseers is quite interesting with all the different utility cards it has. You can run Life Gain/Burn 2 Ex 1 OoS, you can run Burn 2 OoS/1Fd, 2 Fd/1 OoS, Aggro 2 Oos/1Cov, 1 OoS/2 Cov control, 2 DoD/1OoS defense, 2 OoS/1DoD morale decks, 2 OoS/1DoD defense decks, 3 OoS, 2 OoS/SoA, 2 Gi/1OoS Aggro, 2 OoS/1 Gi 'Bio Sol', all of which are of varying levels of power, and above all, many of them are extremely, extremely interesting and fun to play, and above all, fair.

Heaven's Assistence, Box of Wonder, and Higher Calling are honestly the only cards in the OoS purity which might need some adjustments, everything else is quite frankly balanced and fair.


Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MakinoMane on June 28, 2015, 11:41:33 PM
Also, Forerunner of the Champions is honestly a fine card, the command zone that takes advantage of it is highly beatable. The thing is that it might require some adjustments to existing deck lists in order to react, but I can list off many outs that factions have currently to this command zone. If a command zone is counterable, has interesting counterplay, and is overall interactive, then I think it is a good thing to have.

I used the most unusual counter to this command zone. It was a triple purity DoD deck with 3x Unified Defenders in Command and 3 in deck. With 4 of them on field, it was enough to counter the Forerunner of the Champions command zone/deck. Lance of Jinhai is probably the best card from Oppression in terms of helping a Faction fill a gap that was needed.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 29, 2015, 01:51:01 AM
If you already have a swarm of creatures to attack (and lower morale) with, why would you need to win based on morale?

If an opponent manages to finally get rid of the angels, or at least manage it, the player can then use removals (Banish or any of the numerous removals from other factions) to destroy the opponent's high morale monsters to whittle away what remains of the morale of the opponent. The worse part is that one would not even have to commit to build a morale degradation deck.....they would just need to add 3 copies of Melosia (in case one perishes) and the standard removals. Its an easy contingency plan. Thats why I perceive it to be unbalanced.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 29, 2015, 02:17:09 AM
I'm just gonna leave this here. Melosia costs 5. So you have to spend 5 resources setting up your win con of morale. The other deck that does that is CTD, which needs bonkers amounts of removal to stay alive while spending 5 on something like that.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 29, 2015, 02:24:27 AM
@Grinnin_Gin

You do bring up a lot of good points. I respect your opinion as you are a council member, and have aided me in some of my other admittedly rash rants.

However, I am adamant about Forerunner being toxic. My experience with Forerunner/Tempus is one in which a deck would have to build a control deck just to have a chance to stop it. I am not exaggerating, I have contacted 3 people abusing this strategy  inquiring how to stop it, and they have told me that the only decks to stop them involved those devoted to removals (interestingly enough Exiles came up a lot). One player even divulged that hen skyrocketed to the higher ranks using this strategy, but since that level is filled with stone cold control decks, hen has difficulty preceding further.

My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

In regards to Counting the Days, I fail to see the purpose of nerfing the card, other than making it a unique mission. Most of the complaints stem from it being used in conjunction with removals long despised for taking the "skill" out of the game: Combustion, Mad Monk, Yuanshi Wrath, etc. These cards prolong the match long enough to play CTD and automatically win. However, the truly ridiculous aspect of this strategy involves these AOE cards and the efficacious nature of their uses, not necessarily CTD. Without those cards, CTD is nothing more than a time limit, and probably wouldn't even get played until the DoD player had established a safe defense (around turn eight). Nerfing the card will still leave the true culprits in full vigor, and will undoubtedly be used later on in another strategy. I suggest dealing with the root of the CTD strategy, not the win condition.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on June 29, 2015, 02:27:59 AM
I'm just gonna leave this here. Melosia costs 5. So you have to spend 5 resources setting up your win con of morale. The other deck that does that is CTD, which needs bonkers amounts of removal to stay alive while spending 5 on something like that.

To add to that, a player would really have to spend the last 4 turns setting it up, and then play Melosia to sneak in as much damage (fortress and morale) as possible, and then use removals/treading bodies to finish it the opponent off. Hell, the difference between a total aggro and combination aggro and morale degradation deck would literally be the addition of Melosia.

On the contrary, with Counting the Days, an opponent would have to completely devote the deck to stalling or removals, which like you mentioned is a huge investment.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: MerliniX on June 29, 2015, 02:51:41 PM
My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

I disagree that Forrunner/Tempus is 'better' than FD aggro. I have beaten this 3oos deck multiple times with FD. The hardest part of the matchup is dealing damage in small enough increments that Azael doesn't come out. Other than that it seems fairly simple to me.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Interesting_Socks on June 29, 2015, 06:25:37 PM
My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

I disagree that Forrunner/Tempus is 'better' than FD aggro. I have beaten this 3oos deck multiple times with FD. The hardest part of the matchup is dealing damage in small enough increments that Azael doesn't come out. Other than that it seems fairly simple to me.

I don't think he meant better in a 1 vs 1. Just better at being aggressive. It does put on more pressure on turn 2, but it's main downfall is that it struggles to maintain tempo on turn 3.

The biggest card in FD vs OOS in my opinion is adaptive drone. Due to each decks inability to completely deal with each other, it is basically a race, with occasional value trades. The 10 health from adaptive drone can be game winning. I've personally found it to be quite even.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: toon310 on June 29, 2015, 09:02:14 PM
I couldn't read everything but i'd like to add something about CTD, something very important that most players didnt notice i think :

-----> CTD brings victory at...... 90% !!!! Indeed, if you manage to hold until 90% completion then loose your fortress at the end of the turn, it still gets completed to 100% at the end of the turn and grant you the draw ! It means that you need to stay alive 9 turns only (and not 10) to get the draw at worst.

I think this detail shows some lack in the work and in the card testing.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: electro13 on June 29, 2015, 09:09:33 PM
I couldn't read everything but i'd like to add something about CTD, something very important that most players didnt notice i think :

-----> CTD brings victory at...... 90% !!!! Indeed, if you manage to hold until 90% completion then loose your fortress at the end of the turn, it still gets completed to 100% at the end of the turn and grant you the draw ! It means that you need to stay alive 9 turns only (and not 10) to get the draw at worst.

I think this detail shows some lack in the work and in the card testing.

...Yes? I'm not sure I understand the complaint or why this shows lack of testing. The card states at the end of the turn Counting the Days becomes 10% more complete. So if during the turn it is at 90%, at the end it becomes 100% and you win right? Like that's how it works. Same with cards like Tyra. If your opponent is at less than 7 health and they kill you but then tyra goes off, the game is a tie. The game ends at the end of the turn where a player reached 0 health or 0 morale, or an alt wincon was fulfilled. If one of these things happens after the other but both before the turn ends, they both count.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: toon310 on June 29, 2015, 09:48:29 PM
It's simply a feeling i have on the card and a feeling i have about the whole set. Some stuff is... not right like the fact that CTD brings victory at 90%

i'm not disaproving the work of the council in anyway i simply wish to share the way i feel things.

you are right about tyra : it works in the same way. But she can die ! CTD cannot be countered !

another stuff that shows me that the set has a taste of "incomplete" (that's the word i would use to describe this set) : cowmando.... What the hell ? Why ? Why ? Why introducing such a card right now... It is not unlimited so it remains hard to build some sort of deck around it. It's the only factionless card of the set and i brings ... nothing. I don't get it.

another example : logrimathron. There isn't many cards that can allow a player to remove untouchable from a character or to target an untouchable character. Why aren't there more tools in the set to deal with it ?

@ grinin explain me how to deal with avatars when you have a 3p genesis deck and no anomaly in hand : you can't ! I remember once i had a genesis deck (3p) i was wining very easily then the guy put its avatars on turns 7 and 8 and they kept dying and fighting and dying and fighting. Guess what ? I lost !  i had nothing to deal with it. Brainlesss cards, brainless plays that relies on the hand of your opponent. If only avatars could get exhausted like Ao-shun  i would be happy about them !

i won't argue more about the angels who, according to me, received the best cards and the most crappy  easiest to use stuff (forerunner and box). But let's take a look on champion's companion : why ? why this card ??? There is already champion's herald to fulfill that role and who is really really nice ! This sounds weird !

Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: HeliosAFlame on June 29, 2015, 10:04:36 PM
So just talking about 3 dod vs 3gi here. One thing is that if you run a 3purity deck not having answers is part of what you signed up for. Those decks inherently have stronger proactive plans but trade off being less flexible, so often you need to rely on just doing what you do better rather than direct counters.

against avatars once they start coming out if you don't have cta's the correct play is to stop attacking. Unless they have really sick reads they need to stay in defence anyway so you don't lose anything by not attacking, and it means you only need to roll over them once or twice rather than 4 or 5 times. With splitters or just making creatures bigger than 15/15 its not that hard to deal with them. You could also just get up to calamity to reset with their avatars gone if you prefer that style, or fly over them with scouting mission.

They key to playing agaisnt avatars is to not give them free value by just attacking into them every turn, that is where they are at their strongest.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Captain Korea on June 30, 2015, 04:35:59 PM
My issue, which noone STILL has yet to comment about, is that Foreunner and Tempus allow Overseers to outrush FD. That is not acceptable considering that that these two cards essentially out perform the strategy of an entire faction. Its very easy to abuse; deploy your command zone (Temus and 2 Forerunners) by turn 2, then turn 3 play Casiel, then turn 4 switch out Tempus for a four cost Champion; repeat step 4 to create two powerhouses. How is that skillful? Lets not forget that this faction excels at powering up its monsters.

I disagree that Forrunner/Tempus is 'better' than FD aggro. I have beaten this 3oos deck multiple times with FD. The hardest part of the matchup is dealing damage in small enough increments that Azael doesn't come out. Other than that it seems fairly simple to me.

First of all, as other people have pointed out it's not about the 1v1, it's about comparing the ability of the two decks to one another against similar opponents, and I think it's fairly plain to see that OoS Tempus+Forerunner(s) is currently in a better place than FD.

Now, I'm not just having a go at this one deck. I'm actually of the opinion that OoS are such a troublesome and often criticised faction because they don't have a deep identity that extends into game mechanics. Originally, they were an issue because their core mechanic was flying - and a faction that is based entirely around a single game mechanic is never going to be viable or particularly diverse (see: Exiles before demon aggro became viable).

In Oppression, to be honest with you, I'm not sure what they've meant to be. A jack-of-all-trades, maybe? If so, they should definitely have some tradeoffs for having more options open to them than say, FD, if they choose to rush. I also have serious issues with the strength of the FFO aggro that's at the top of most tier lists at the moment, but I'm not sure how that might be addressed. I'm not opposed to the concept of a jack-of-all-trades faction or a toolbox faction that adds options to another deck, but if either of those is what OoS is meant to be then they must absolutely be better defined that way, and balanced accordingly.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Interesting_Socks on June 30, 2015, 06:16:32 PM
I think it's fairly plain to see that OoS Tempus+Forerunner(s) is currently in a better place than FD.

If you're talking in terms of aggro, I don't think it is 'clearly better'.

Yes it has an amazing turn 2. But often it's super vulnerable on turn 3. The 6/6s trade poorly against a lot of things that can come out on turn 3 (Infected Monk, Buffed Accolytes, Ramp into Adaptive Hulkier etc.). Oversears don't have charge and the lack of charge defines a lot of how they play, because they can't afford to loose board presence. While FD has a tone of super good 2 cost chargers.

And then there's finishing moves which Oversears completely lack, compared to FD which has more options available than it can fit into a deck.

In terms of just stats, the fastest 3p OS can win is turn 5. The fastest 3p FD can win is turn 4.

I just don't see how you can justify 3p OS being "currently in a better place"
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on August 02, 2015, 07:40:24 PM
I think it's fairly plain to see that OoS Tempus+Forerunner(s) is currently in a better place than FD.

If you're talking in terms of aggro, I don't think it is 'clearly better'.

Yes it has an amazing turn 2. But often it's super vulnerable on turn 3. The 6/6s trade poorly against a lot of things that can come out on turn 3 (Infected Monk, Buffed Accolytes, Ramp into Adaptive Hulkier etc.). Oversears don't have charge and the lack of charge defines a lot of how they play, because they can't afford to loose board presence. While FD has a tone of super good 2 cost chargers.

And then there's finishing moves which Oversears completely lack, compared to FD which has more options available than it can fit into a deck.

In terms of just stats, the fastest 3p OS can win is turn 5. The fastest 3p FD can win is turn 4.

I just don't see how you can justify 3p OS being "currently in a better place"

That is nowhere near a true representative of either faction at the moment. I have lost against 3p OS by turn 4 multiple times, and have not survived past turn 5 at all. I have NEVER....NEVER...NEVER lost against 3p FD, even when the matchup was clearly against me. FD typically wins by turn 7, maybe turn 5 if the draws are godlike. Either way, 3p FD are seldom seen for a reason....the deck has huge flaws. With Forerunner, Tempus, Cassiel, and a host of rather powerful angels and defensive spells like Banish, 3p OS can win by turn 4 on a consistent basis.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Interesting_Socks on August 02, 2015, 11:28:31 PM

That is nowhere near a true representative of either faction at the moment. I have lost against 3p OS by turn 4 multiple times, and have not survived past turn 5 at all. I have NEVER....NEVER...NEVER lost against 3p FD, even when the matchup was clearly against me. FD typically wins by turn 7, maybe turn 5 if the draws are godlike. Either way, 3p FD are seldom seen for a reason....the deck has huge flaws. With Forerunner, Tempus, Cassiel, and a host of rather powerful angels and defensive spells like Banish, 3p OS can win by turn 4 on a consistent basis.

Yea I didn't realize how good OS was when I wrote that.

But what are the huge flaws of 3P FD? It's in a really strong place at the moment, a stumble heavy FD is almost an auto win against Tinker and Ramp decks. Flagbearer really shuts down a lot of ways people played around FD with Haste and Vigilance characters.

OS literally can't win on turn 4, it's just not possible.

But people are really getting good at OS now and I wrote that before people were doing things like turn 1 box, or switching champions back and forth. I didn't realize how much potential the deck had.
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: _rgriff on August 03, 2015, 04:42:03 PM
Infestation was the best set IMO. Meta was diverse and healthy, every deck type was present in meta with almost every factions had their share of cards in meta decks. The game overall was more stable and there was less bugs than ever. Good times
Title: Re: Best set ever?
Post by: Ragnoraok on August 06, 2015, 03:59:53 AM

That is nowhere near a true representative of either faction at the moment. I have lost against 3p OS by turn 4 multiple times, and have not survived past turn 5 at all. I have NEVER....NEVER...NEVER lost against 3p FD, even when the matchup was clearly against me. FD typically wins by turn 7, maybe turn 5 if the draws are godlike. Either way, 3p FD are seldom seen for a reason....the deck has huge flaws. With Forerunner, Tempus, Cassiel, and a host of rather powerful angels and defensive spells like Banish, 3p OS can win by turn 4 on a consistent basis.

Yea I didn't realize how good OS was when I wrote that.

But what are the huge flaws of 3P FD? It's in a really strong place at the moment, a stumble heavy FD is almost an auto win against Tinker and Ramp decks. Flagbearer really shuts down a lot of ways people played around FD with Haste and Vigilance characters.

OS literally can't win on turn 4, it's just not possible.

But people are really getting good at OS now and I wrote that before people were doing things like turn 1 box, or switching champions back and forth. I didn't realize how much potential the deck had.

My apologies, I was being a little overzealous. I have lost by turn 6 on a consistent basis against the Forerunner nonsense. However, your claims of FD winning by turn 5 is unfounded as well, as that combination is not as powerful as you mention it. The standard is that FD typically wins by turn 7.

The flaw with 3p FD is that the deck is very susceptible to blocking since it has few fliers, and most of the lower resource creatures have terrible defense making trading advantageous for the defender. Plus, FD has an issue with spells that do direct damage....unless Noble Protector is out, but even then the nerf really hurt its application. Also, Stumble and the other bounceable cards are best used when the FD player has a nice amount of monsters on the field, which is usually mid-late game; by then, the opponent should have enough removals or bodies to outlast the onslaught.

3p FD sizzles out WWAAYY too quickly, and its tools boil down to rush and bounce creatures. The former can be stopped by blocking and trading; the latter is truly only useful once a player has tempo, because bounceable cards require resources and are useful primarily for advancing the rush game.

3 OS can swarm and bait removals very early on using Forerunner, clear troublesome defenders/attackers using cards like Banish and Box of Wonders, stall the game using the new Healing cards (I kid you not this strategy is just as efficacious as rushdown) then use fliers to clean up. It wouldn't be as bad if there were more viable answers to fliers, but unfortunately most are faction locked. For some reason, this faction perpetually stands on the fine line between meh and OP, for the reasons Captain Korea mentioned.