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Infinity Wars => Cards and Factions => General Game Discussion => Warpath => Topic started by: CommunistMountain on August 30, 2014, 12:22:04 AM

Title: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: CommunistMountain on August 30, 2014, 12:22:04 AM
I think it's supposed to be a red wolf. Contrary to popular belief, red wolves aren't red.

Cost: 2
Morale: 4
Purity: 1 Warpath
Subtype: Beast
Stats: 4/4
Abilities:
–Haste

A cheap but squishy character. The concept fits into Flame Dawn better in my opinion.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Rethorian on August 30, 2014, 01:18:47 AM
Garbage card. If you need a 2 drop beast character, you're better off using Rabid Rabbit, which is a 2/5, which turns into a 3/5 with bloodthirst 2, or an effective 5/7.

5/7 VS 4/4? Why is this even a contest? Why is this even a card?

So, lets go up to 3 cost. You get Killaroo, 4/9 with the ability to block flying. +5 HP for 1 resource, AND an ability?

This card won't see much play. I don't even think people will want this in draft.

0/10.

Also, the art is pretty sub-par if you ask me. The art style is meh, the animation is completely underwhelming, and it's eyes make it look like it's mentally handicapped or something.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Nehkrimah on August 30, 2014, 02:03:08 AM
I'd like to point out 2 things, first yes, there are better cards for that cost in Warpath, but now there's an option if you want more in that cost slot for more early game preassure.

Secondly, they have to make bad cards, or at least not-as-good cards. Both so people can learn and also if every card is good you tend to get power creep.
Not explaining that second part well, but I remember quite a few articles from Mark Rosewater on the subject.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Vertu Honagan on August 30, 2014, 02:06:53 AM
I can only think of one deck that this guy would be used in and that would be a breeder deck. Aside from that...Not really sure it's viable for any other kind of WP deck. Maybe a late game surprise drop if you got a few pack leaders? Which is Rabid Rabbits weakpoint since the buffs from Pack Leader and Infected Pack Leader break Rabid Rabbit.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Thechynd on August 30, 2014, 09:31:27 AM
Agree that this card seems unnecessarily weak (and I'm really not a fan of the "card games need worthless cards" line of thinking, even if Magic's developers are). Feel like it should get at least +1/+0 or +0/+1, though comparing it to something like paladin of the flame dawn I think that even making it a 5/5 ought to be acceptable.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: CommunistMountain on August 30, 2014, 09:41:38 AM
They have to make bad cards, or at least not-as-good cards. Both so people can learn and also if every card is good you tend to get power creep.
Not explaining that second part well, but I remember quite a few articles from Mark Rosewater on the subject.
The article can be found here: http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr5. I am obliged to to point out that while most reasons may apply, some simply do not work within IW:


1. Bad cards have to exist to make other cards look better.
He states that this is the most important point out of the list.  He offers the example of comparing Volcanic Hammer with Lightning Bolt (MTG's version, if you're confused), both offering the same ability, except that Hammer has a higher cost and less flexibility of play. Remove Lightning Bolt from the picture, Volcanic Hammer looks good. Looks.

The thing is, the hard and fast stats don't change. VH<LB no matter how you look at it, and excluding those YOLO players who play badly on purpose, 100 out of 100 times people would choose LB (for a mode which supported both cards). It wouldn't matter if VH even existed.

The whole idea of this was because if you put all the good cards in a single set, people would stop buying the rest, so they had to spread them out. It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of marketing. The thing is, in IW, buying boosters and trading isn't the only way you can get cards. Sooner or later you would get almost every Common and Uncommon Soulbound from quests and leveling up and whatnot, so this reason has no place in IW.


3. Bad cards help newbies learn from their mistakes.
This, in my opinion, is the worst reason in the list, Magic or not. We don't want cards which exist just for the sake of making newbies learn the hard way, we want cards which offer new possibilities and possibly even change the meta.

And how much impact does it have on a newbie when s/he learns that Masked Initiate is a bad card to run, really?


5. Power levels differ because all cards having an equal quality level minimises the effect of differences in skill.
I beg to differ. Wouldn't eliminating card quality differences amplify the importance of skill? Unless he meant deck–building skills, but gameplay skill still counts for a great deal for victory.


The rest of his points are legit, at least to a larger extent than they are not.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Abyss on August 30, 2014, 10:27:20 AM
See, this kind of thing is why I really don't get the design process. If this was a 5/5, it could at least kill a 1 drop and trade with most 2 drops, while still being an offensive threat by itself. Instead...it dies to pretty much everything. Seriously guys, Hellkeeper trades favorably with this. Think about that for a second.

Then of course, there's all the other low cost Warpath weenies with Haste that it's competing with.

Also, Wolf? That's the best they could come up with? Not Hungry Wolf or War Wolf or Loser Wolf? Are they even trying?

Man, I've got to admit I'm pretty depressed about this kind of ****.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Cleanse on August 30, 2014, 11:29:35 AM
Also, Wolf? That's the best they could come up with? Not Hungry Wolf or War Wolf or Loser Wolf? Are they even trying?

Laser Wolf - GI/WP. Make this happen, Devs.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: CommunistMountain on August 30, 2014, 11:40:06 AM
Also, Wolf? That's the best they could come up with? Not Hungry Wolf or War Wolf or Loser Wolf? Are they even trying?
Man, I've got to admit I'm pretty depressed about this kind of ****.
Well, one of the Sleepers' Unlimiteds are called Sleepers of Avarrach...

At least they're trying this time. *attempting consolation :)*
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Clearbeard on August 30, 2014, 02:10:19 PM
The 1-2 resource slots are very hard to hit a perfect balance with, simply because you don't have as much relative flexibility on cost as you do balancing 4-5 cost cards.  Wolf may be too expansive at 2 resources, but it would be way overbalanced if it were only 1 resource.

And the strength of haste, particularly for Warpath, can't be understated.  In a breeder deck, you can play wolf AND use caretaker of the young on it the same turn, meaning you get 2 4/4's for 3 resources.  Add in Untapped Wilderness and Pack Leaders and it gets even better.  My warpath deck will quite often play killaroo straight into assault for a surprise 7-10 strength attack that can easily change the pace of a turn.  A similarly common play is to drop killaroo as a sacrificial blocker against a large GI non-flier, to buy an extra turn.  Now there's a slightly less flexible card I can play that costs 1 less but gives me the same benefits.  Again, adding in the Wilderness, it's a 1 drop vs. a 2 drop, which is an even bigger relative savings.

Perhaps you could add an extra power or health point.  Perhaps Wolf could even be unlimited (other factions have more than one unlimited character after all) to build a new deck type around.  But even without such changes, it's not a worthless card.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Rethorian on August 30, 2014, 11:26:36 PM
The 1-2 resource slots are very hard to hit a perfect balance with, simply because you don't have as much relative flexibility on cost as you do balancing 4-5 cost cards.  Wolf may be too expansive at 2 resources, but it would be way overbalanced if it were only 1 resource.

And the strength of haste, particularly for Warpath, can't be understated.  In a breeder deck, you can play wolf AND use caretaker of the young on it the same turn, meaning you get 2 4/4's for 3 resources. 

Or you could use Rabid Rabbit. Which is better in nearly every way.

If Wolf was a 6/2 Haste Creature, it would be infinitely more playable. I'd possibly pick that up in draft. I won't pick up a 4/4 for 2, even with haste.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: MrSinister on August 31, 2014, 12:20:12 AM
The whole Order Set is still on the PBE or whatever you call it in IW. If it turns out to many people complain about it , i am sure they will change it.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Clearbeard on August 31, 2014, 01:12:44 AM
The 1-2 resource slots are very hard to hit a perfect balance with, simply because you don't have as much relative flexibility on cost as you do balancing 4-5 cost cards.  Wolf may be too expansive at 2 resources, but it would be way overbalanced if it were only 1 resource.

And the strength of haste, particularly for Warpath, can't be understated.  In a breeder deck, you can play wolf AND use caretaker of the young on it the same turn, meaning you get 2 4/4's for 3 resources. 

Or you could use Rabid Rabbit. Which is better in nearly every way.

If Wolf was a 6/2 Haste Creature, it would be infinitely more playable. I'd possibly pick that up in draft. I won't pick up a 4/4 for 2, even with haste.

Rabid Rabbit interacts very strangely with buffs.  Some of these are probably bugs, such as its seeming inconsistent interaction with Pack Leader.  Sometimes it seems to have the +3, other times it doesn't.  I haven't figured out a pattern yet as I don't really use the rabbit.  I think it comes from the fact that it *transforms* which clears any buffs, such as from Aleta Caretaker and, incidentally, persistent buffs from Pack Leader et al.  I see similar weirdness with Hubris of the Strong interacting with various persistent buffs, so I think it's at least partly intentional if not working 100% as planned.  Regardless, this makes the rabbit less useful than wolf in decks that rely on buffing beasts.  Though I agree it's clearly superior when taken on its own merits (2/5 boosting to 5/7 in combat vs. a flat 4/4).
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: CommunistMountain on August 31, 2014, 01:24:18 AM
The 1-2 resource slots are very hard to hit a perfect balance with, simply because you don't have as much relative flexibility on cost as you do balancing 4-5 cost cards.  Wolf may be too expansive at 2 resources, but it would be way overbalanced if it were only 1 resource.

And the strength of haste, particularly for Warpath, can't be understated.  In a breeder deck, you can play wolf AND use caretaker of the young on it the same turn, meaning you get 2 4/4's for 3 resources. 

Or you could use Rabid Rabbit. Which is better in nearly every way.

If Wolf was a 6/2 Haste Creature, it would be infinitely more playable. I'd possibly pick that up in draft. I won't pick up a 4/4 for 2, even with haste.

Rabid Rabbit interacts very strangely with buffs.  Some of these are probably bugs, such as its seeming inconsistent interaction with Pack Leader.  Sometimes it seems to have the +3, other times it doesn't.  I haven't figured out a pattern yet as I don't really use the rabbit.  I think it comes from the fact that it *transforms* which clears any buffs, such as from Aleta Caretaker and, incidentally, persistent buffs from Pack Leader et al.  I see similar weirdness with Hubris of the Strong interacting with various persistent buffs, so I think it's at least partly intentional if not working 100% as planned.  Regardless, this makes the rabbit less useful than wolf in decks that rely on buffing beasts.  Though I agree it's clearly superior when taken on its own merits (2/5 boosting to 5/7 in combat vs. a flat 4/4).
Yeah, this also applies to Blood–Crazed Initiate.

From my observations, when BCI transforms, both his base health and power get reset to 5/5. This causes problems when his base health is higher than 5. For instance, if he has 9 base health and 4 health remaining, when he transforms, both these values get lowered by 4, killing him.

Also, I think Hubris' bug is that it transforms the character to the lowest possible health and power value in which it can still stay alive, rather than actually 1/1. So for instance when a One of Many is buffed by Pack Leader, Hubris will transform it into a 0/0, because Pack Leader's buffs help it live.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Clearbeard on August 31, 2014, 01:53:49 AM
Yeah, this also applies to Blood–Crazed Initiate.

From my observations, when BCI transforms, both his base health and power get reset to 5/5. This causes problems when his base health is higher than 5. For instance, if he has 9 base health and 4 health remaining, when he transforms, both these values get lowered by 4, killing him.

Also, I think Hubris' bug is that it transforms the character to the lowest possible health and power value in which it can still stay alive, rather than actually 1/1. So for instance when a One of Many is buffed by Pack Leader, Hubris will transform it into a 0/0, because Pack Leader's buffs help it live.

This makes a lot of sense actually, based on what I've seen too.  I'm getting a little tired of cards not doing what they say they do though.  Mad Monk is yet another lovely example, not actually doing 16 damage like it says but 4x power damage.  I really hope to see most of these inconsistencies ironed out by next week.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Oeilduciel on August 31, 2014, 05:09:40 PM
I got this card today and i don't really understand why you think of it as a fundamentaly bad card.
Ok by itself it's not terrible, but my deck has the defiant ermit and aleta the caretaker as commander, and when i draw this wolf i use them to obtain a 6/10 card ready for this turn.
Ok at the end it cost me 5 but i obtained a card which was helpful in my game. For me it's not a bad card, but an average one.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Symphony on August 31, 2014, 07:12:25 PM
That is pretty much the only situation where the wolf is better than the rabbit (quite funny, huh?), in Hermit decks. The fact that the little rabid guy interacts strangely with buffing makes it so that the wolf is slightly more reliable then him.
Aside from that, and not being able to die because of a zom-b-gone (really?), the rabbit should be  more efficient than the wolf.

And yeah, the name sucks and the art is very disturbing :/
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: wham on August 31, 2014, 11:20:11 PM
I will be adding these to my hermit deck, warpath can never have too many haste cards and I feel that this one would even be pretty good in pack leader based warpath.

Haste stronk
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: CommunistMountain on September 01, 2014, 06:38:11 AM
Haste stronk
I concur, +1

Nothing beats the element of surprise in IW.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: bullno1 on September 03, 2014, 09:05:23 AM
Also, the art is pretty sub-par if you ask me. The art style is meh, the animation is completely underwhelming, and it's eyes make it look like it's mentally handicapped or something.

May I suggest alternate art?

(http://www.noodlytime.com/postimages/wolf.png)

Also, Wolf? That's the best they could come up with? Not Hungry Wolf or War Wolf or Loser Wolf? Are they even trying?

Wolfe
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Stingeris on September 12, 2014, 03:00:20 PM
This is viable in breeder and Hermit decks.  Not a good option for 80% other decks but haste gives flexibility along with WP buffs from hermit/ and pack leaders.
Title: Re: Order Preview Card: Wolf
Post by: Knive8s9704 on September 12, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
This is viable in breeder and Hermit decks.  Not a good option for 80% other decks but haste gives flexibility along with WP buffs from hermit/ and pack leaders.

If it has haste, then upon deployment, you'd be able to breed it that turn and buff it with hermit so not only viable, but fantastic. At least this card will make rift run WP a bit less late game.