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Infinity Wars => News and Developer Talk => Game Rules => Topic started by: Inkidu on June 26, 2014, 11:17:09 AM

Title: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Inkidu on June 26, 2014, 11:17:09 AM
Okay, I'm sure a few of you have noticed that flying stacks. You give a flying Angel Angelfy or Jetpack and she gets Flying 2.
Well, I imagine this was done in the vein of shield 2 or whatever, but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't need to be. Why? There aren't enough cards that remove things like consume or flying. Drag Down, a sleeper card is made absolutely useless by the way some cards (especially the overseers) can get flying 2.

Basically the fact that flying can stack, as far as I can tell nerfs only one card. It singles out one card to make it useless, which is poor form for a TCG. No one card should be created to nerf one other card. I don't run drag down in my deck, because there are much easier ways for Sleeprs to kill flying 2 creatures than waste a card.

Flying should not stack. That is all.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: DrayGon777 on June 26, 2014, 11:22:29 AM
Agreed. You're either flying, or you aren't. I don't even play Sleepers and I see this as an issue.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Cleanse on June 26, 2014, 11:38:56 AM
*Furious agreement*
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: aldin on June 26, 2014, 01:23:03 PM
Sign me up for no flying stacking!
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Inkidu on June 26, 2014, 03:24:13 PM
Cool! I'm going to add a poll if I can
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Abyss on June 28, 2014, 08:26:51 AM
It's silly to look at this as 'Flying stacking'. It's really keyword stacking. And there's arguments both ways.

Right now, we have the instance where multiple instances of a keyword is 'too good'. But what about future interactions?

Lets say in the future there's a repeatable/constant card that strips keywords. Lets say a location, 'opponents characters lose all keywords' and it strips all instances of all keyword. Is this 'too good' the other way? Would it be overpowered to let you play Unstoppable to restore that keyword to a character that lost it? What about any future keywords, where completely removing them could be a significant issue?

A knee jerk reaction to change the rules just to make Drag Down better would be bad. Now, if they sit down and decide that removing all instances of a keyword is the way to go, that's fine. But it shouldn't be done just because the current implementation is flawed. Especially since they could fix Drag Down by just changing it to 'Target characters loses and can't have flight'.

Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: NatoPotato on June 28, 2014, 08:35:09 AM
if a card is flying and you give it a jetpack, its still flying, it doesn't fly at double height or anything, yet the flying keyword will show up multiple times, so I think it should be fixed.

However that said I don't see it as much of a bug, since I have tested it, I had an angel with about 100x flying and used a drag down, it lost ALL instances of flying, so basically having multiple instances of the keyword does NOTHING. (hopefully this is still the case, if not then something's been edited since I last tested this)
I could still give it flying back the next turn with another jetpack which is fine.

Also I think flying stacking is not intended since it doesn't happen with junkyard which also grants cards flying.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Inkidu on June 28, 2014, 12:25:43 PM
It's silly to look at this as 'Flying stacking'. It's really keyword stacking. And there's arguments both ways.

Right now, we have the instance where multiple instances of a keyword is 'too good'. But what about future interactions?

Lets say in the future there's a repeatable/constant card that strips keywords. Lets say a location, 'opponents characters lose all keywords' and it strips all instances of all keyword. Is this 'too good' the other way? Would it be overpowered to let you play Unstoppable to restore that keyword to a character that lost it? What about any future keywords, where completely removing them could be a significant issue?

A knee jerk reaction to change the rules just to make Drag Down better would be bad. Now, if they sit down and decide that removing all instances of a keyword is the way to go, that's fine. But it shouldn't be done just because the current implementation is flawed. Especially since they could fix Drag Down by just changing it to 'Target characters loses and can't have flight'.
In the future I might might be a millionaire.

You cannot weigh a game's balance on what happens in the future. It's a stupid design choice, and as someone below you said it might not even be intentional. I'm pretty sure though that it kept one of its flyings when I found the bug. It's either a stupid rule and an oversight, and honestly if they want to revisit it in the future by all means they should, but they should remove it now.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Swiftwynd on June 28, 2014, 10:50:46 PM
Other key words do not stack to my knowledge.

For example, I don't think it is possible to give a card additional Immolation or Consume or Bloodthirst if it already has it on them, unless I'm horribly mistaken in which case the Consume 2 swarmer stacking would be legitimately awesome.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: chaosangel2112 on June 30, 2014, 02:45:02 AM
Agreed one hundred percent.  Either you fly or you don't.   If you fly and get drug down, you don't.  Now, if you fly, get drug down and then get a jetpack you should fly again.

Also if a card leaves play or goes back to your hand it should get hard reset.  Stats, boosts, debuffs, everything.  Hard reset to base card text when it is replayed or returns to play.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: JSlayerXero on June 30, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
I believe the one card that has this issue is Lilariah. Which, frankly, comes across as her working correctly. Yes, it seem like drag down should work against her, but her effect suggests that if she's there, Angels fly, no questions asked. Doesn't match her artwork much, but still. The problem with Lilariah is that it's a passive effect. To borrow a YGO term, it's a continuous effects. Continuous effects can be negated entirely but they aren't flying and then applying flying to them. Which means, annoying as it may sound, she would be working correctly. Now granted, you can cry nerf against her all you want and I would probably argue with you instead of against you. Just show me that this applies in other instances and I will admit that I don't really have an argument going. If so, the only thing I end up saying is that Lilariah is working correctly, whether we like it or not.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: Shimrra3 on July 05, 2014, 10:12:07 PM
Its really a programming issue. Instead of Flying being a True/False question (or a Boolean for those who actually know what I'm talking about), its just being added as a condition... which can stack for some reason. And Drag Down isn't programmed to check for multiple instances of Flying, so it just removes the first one it finds and thinks its done. Change to a True/False-type thing and it should be fine.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: NatoPotato on July 06, 2014, 02:01:52 AM
The interactions with lilariah are weird, yes the intended behaviour is that all angels always have flying as long as she's on the field, but is it intended that if you use drag down on an angel card that has flying by default while lilariah is on the field nothing seems to happen, but then when lilariah is moved to support that card loses it's flying?

I think what's going on is that the cards have a default value for whether it's flying or not, with drag down changing that value, while lilariah's effect completely overrides/ignores that value.

Whether flying actually 'stacks' with lilariah or not, I don't know, I only have one lilariah to test with, if someone could test with multiple lilariahs on the field that'd be helpful.


Have a couple angel cards that have flying by default on the field, play lilariah, kill lilariah, play another lilariah, awaken first lilariah, have both on the field, use a drag down on flying card 1, move both lilariahs to support, does card 1 lose flying? if yes then I think my hypothesis is true, if not, put both lilariahs back in the field, use 2 drag downs on flying card 2, move both lilariahs to support, does card 2 lose flying? if yes it's probably stacking.
(Could even try with 3 lilariahs, eg if you use 2-3 drag downs on a card while there's 3 lilariahs)
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: DrayGon777 on July 06, 2014, 02:55:33 PM
A better test would be using Give him a Jetpack on a character with flying and then using Drag down. That's what can cause flying to stack on the card.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: JSlayerXero on July 06, 2014, 07:40:25 PM
I can confirm. This applies to neither Give Him a Jetpack or Angelify. I dragged both to the ground without an issue. This stacking business only applies to Lilariah since she's constantly applying Flying to anything she can.

Edit: Wait... It's interacting oddly with Ascended characters... Doing more testing...
Edit 2: Well, Drag Down removed ALL instances of flying these Angel had on them. They didn't un-Ascend, so they weren't flying even after hitting the fortress again. Lilariah wasn't in here for both Jetpack, Awaken and Angels. May move to Two Overseers 1 Sleeper soon.
Edit 3: As expected, attempting to Drag Down an Angel that's being buffed by Lilariah doesn't worked. However, if Liliariah is removed, it doesn't keep Flying. It would seem an Angel can re-obtain flying after it's been removed, whether it's by Ascending or some other method. Ascending only applies flying once, while Lilariah applies it constantly. Furthermore, Drag Down does not prevent you from applying flying after the first Drag Down.
Edit 4: So yeah, the whole Ascended thing was just me. It probably Ascended after being Dragged Down once. I'm not sure I have the cards to test any other situations. However, I can confirm that Drag Down will remove all instances of Flying, but Lilariah will instantly replace it if used against her.
Title: Re: Flying Stacking and Why it Needs to Stop
Post by: greymalken on July 18, 2014, 04:25:35 PM
If you drag down Liliriah and she remains in a combat zone, her flight granting effect continues to grant flight to all angels - including herself. A dragged down Liliriah who is in the command or support zone will not, however, have flying anymore - the drag down having removed her own inherent flying quality. Thus a dragged down Liliriah in support/command would be damaged by angel of ruin, while in combat zone she would be granted flying by her ongoing buff and thus immune.